World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc.
MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Printable Version

+- World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. (https://worldbeyblade.org)
+-- Forum: Beyblade Discussion (https://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-Beyblade-Discussion)
+--- Forum: Beyblade Customizations (https://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-Beyblade-Customizations)
+---- Forum: Metal Fight Customizations (https://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-Metal-Fight-Customizations)
+---- Thread: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion (/Thread-MFB-Standard-Competitive-Customs-List-and-Public-Discussion)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Jan. 30, 2014

Ketos and Gemios both protrude too much.

I was the person who checked most of the flash CW list so if I own it odds are if it aint there it protrudes too much. I posted a list in the Screw thread in the limited subforum, I've got one or two new ones since then but if it's on that list and I haven't mentioned it, it protrudes too much.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - [)ragon - Jan. 30, 2014

Alright guys, here's the updated draft!

Quote:
TheBlackDragon Wrote:
ATTACK


Wyvang
  • {MSF{-H}} Wyvang Wyvang (GB145/W145/H145) (R2F/RF)
  • {MSF{-H}} Wyvang Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] (R2F/RF/LRF)

Balro
  • {MSF{-H}} Balro Balro (CH120/D125/T125/W145) (RF/R2F)

Bahamdia
  • {MSF-M} Bahamdia Dragooon BD145 (LRF/R2F/RF)

Flash
  • MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) (GB145/H145/S130/CH120) (R2F/RF)
  • MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) W145 MF


DEFENSE



Duo
  • MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 (RDF/RB)
  • MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) E230 (RDF/RSF/RB/CS)

Revizer/Killerken
  • MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) (Revizer/Killerken) BD145 (RDF/RB/CS/RSF)
  • MSF-H Revizer (Reviser/Killerken) E230 (RDF/RSF/CS/RB)

Genbull
  • MSF-H Revizer Genbull E230 (RDF/RB/RSF/CS)
  • MSF-H (Revizer/Genbull) Genbull BD145 (RDF/RB/RSF)


STAMINA



Duo
  • Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
  • Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD/TB)
  • Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SR200 TB
  • Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 160 PD
  • Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SA165[Normal] EWD

Genbull
  • Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
  • Genbull Genbull TH170 TB

Phantom
  • Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
  • Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) TH170 (D/SD/TB)
  • Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) SR200 TB

Dragooon
  • {MSF{-H}} (Reviser/Genbull/Killerken/Girago) Dragooon SA165[Normal] EWD
  • MSF-L Girago Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] EWD


BALANCE

  • MF(-M/-H) Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 230 MB
  • (Girago/Genbull) Genbull E230 MB
  • Girago Girago E230 MB
  • MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145 RSF
  • MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85 MF
  • MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230 BSF
  • {MF{-L}} (Duo/Death) (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) F230* (CF/GCF)
  • {MSF{-L}} (Genbull/Girago/Revizer/Killerken) Dragooon F230* (CF/GCF)
  • {MSF{-L}} Genbull Genbull F230* (CF/GCF)
  • MF-H Diablo (Kerbecs/Unicorn II) BD145 RF
  • MSF-(H/L) Girago Girago BD145 RF
  • MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145 RF
  • MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145 RDF
  • {MSF-H} (Reviser/Killerken) Dragooon SA165[Normal] RDF
  • Genbull Dragooon T125 GCF

* F230 must be one of the orange ones from ZGRBV3, not the brown or red ones.

Well, there you have it! Now, for the things I changed:
  • Removed MF-H from MSF(-M/-H) Bahamdia Dragooon BD145 (LRF/R2F/RF) and made MF-M optional

    Spoiler (Click to View)
  • Added MSF-L as an option with Girago BD145RF

    Spoiler (Click to View)
  • Removed MSF-H from Girago Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] EWD

    Spoiler (Click to View)
  • Added Unicorno II as an option with Diablo Anti-Attack

    Spoiler (Click to View)
  • Replaced M(S)F-M with M(S)F-L on all F230 customs, and made M(S)F-L optional.

    Spoiler (Click to View)
  • Removed Genbull as an option for the bottom Chrome Wheel in E230 Defense customs

    Spoiler (Click to View)
  • Made MSF-H optional on Dragooon SA165[Normal] spin-equalizers

    Spoiler (Click to View)
  • Added Girago Girago as a Synchrom option for E230MB Balance

    Spoiler (Click to View)

This draft has RF re-added as an option for (MSF-M) Bahamdia Dragooon BD145R2F/LRF. I'm not too comfortable with it, but the consensus seems to be that it needs to be up there.

There are also two more updates I made near the bottom. Please read the spoilers before commenting on them, just so you get an idea of why I did what I did.

Get talking guys! The sooner we update, the better!

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - DRAGON KING - Feb. 02, 2014

So, whose up for making Poison top tier? JK Tongue_out

All jokes aside:

why isn't LRF an option on Flash, Wyvang Wyvang and Balro Balro?

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 02, 2014

Also on the topic of Flash, I got to look at Flash Ionis yesterday and I don't know who put it up there but it juts out way before the slopes, obstructing them against taller opponents. It needs to be removed right away - even if it "works" there are many, many better options that aren't up there. Someone needs to get me some side-on pic of Flash Beelzeb too, because that's another one I don't have and thus haven't checked, and it seems I can't really trust others' judgement on this issue (especially as Beelzeb is currently listed as "Beelzebub" both here and in the Official List's OP)

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - ~Eclipse~ - Feb. 02, 2014

Why isn't W2D up there for Dragooon spin stealer/spin equalizer combos? I've actually used Reviser Dragooon SA165 W2D at a tournament and it did really well. The LAD it provides is just awesome. If you want support for my reason, please tell me.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 02, 2014

I never got good results with mine, wearing it in a bit did make it perform better against WD, but it still gets absolutely wrecked by EWD (ofc for such tests to be valid, the EWD has to be non-aggro and in decent condition etc), and generally the reason it isn't up here is because of that alongside perhaps not enough people being able to confirm the good results it did have. IMO a somewhat worn W2D is a decent sub for EWD for spin stealing, but EWD still outclasses it (W2D also seems to have more of a tendency to roll out of the arena when hit, though that's not something I've looked into extensively, just something I noticed while trying it out recently).

EDIT: Played around with it more. A decently worn W2D is good on low tracks as it doesn't topple but even there it does nothing EWD doesn't, and EWD takes hits from opposite spin beys a whole lot better. On taller beys, W2D still topples for me, so unless the multiple topple stages are somehow more worthwhile with SA165 in ZGA mode than EWD's properties, I don't see it having much of a place.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Angry Face - Feb. 02, 2014

Nothing to contribute, but going along with th!nk's callout on the spelling of Beelzeb, "Revizer" and "Reviser" are both used throughout the list, though the correct spelling is "Revizer."

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Tri - Feb. 02, 2014

Uranus should be added for Flash. Not sure what official testing has been done besides from me in some thread. I don't know about Beelzeb or Ionis.

Also, I'll add my commentary on the draft later.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 02, 2014

The reason Uranus and Horogium aren't there is basically that we wanted to keep the list short so we went for the "best of the best".

At some point someone forgot that and jammed on one obstructive one in Ionis and one we aren't sure about until someone gets me pictures, under the wrong name. If we're fine with having five, then Uranus at least definitely needs to go up.

EDIT: Adding some more thoughts:

I'm still on the fence about the faces, especially for attack, as I don't see the point of MSF-M really - it's *lighter* than MSF-L (at least, that was the case for MF-2's so I assume it is again) but we all know which has better stamina (and therefore will likely make for better movement speed - centred weight slows you down etc etc), and given it's heavier it seems like the obvious choice? I've also always found a regular Metal Face was light enough for any given attacker that cared about speed in the past, and wouldn't be surprised if the same applied here with the regular Metal Stone Face. So personally I'd slash in L, H (for those who still want the extra recoil control or weight or whatever and can get it going fast through other means such as particularly hard but well controlled launches or mint tips), and the plain MSF too - i.e. {MSF{-H/-L}}.

And of course, still strongly think LRF should be on right spin beys.

I'll lay off SA165 on Flash seeing as TheBlackDragon says he finds it outclassed (though I think we agreed that if an area has a lot of E230, it would probably be a very good option), so I'll do tests or wait for someone to do them or whatever.

Still really want that Flash Beelzeb picture, and Ionis absolutely needs to go - replace it with Uranus if you want but yeah, it should not be there.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Tri - Feb. 04, 2014

I won't ahead and did some Flash SA165 testing:

MF-H Flash Uranus SA165R2F vs. Reviser Killerken BD145CS
Flash: 14 wins (All KO)
Reviser: 6 wins (All OS)
Flash: 70%

Wow, I had my doubts about it really, but its pretty good!

MF-H Flash Uranus SA165R2F vs. Reviser Killerken E230CS
Flash: 15 wins (All KO)
Reviser Killerken: 5 wins (All OS)
Flash win rate: 75%

Not bad Smile.

Just realized how quickly I did these tests plus some for another combo thread, haha.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - [)ragon - Feb. 04, 2014

I didn't say SA165 was necessarily outclassed

I just like GB145 better in general (most everything in our meta is mid-height, so I'm obviously leniant towards lower attackers).

IIRC Ingulit added Eonis/Beelzeb. Don't remember exactly why, but yah.

MSF-M means higher spin-velocity, which means higher speed, which means better results against opposite-spin opponents. Stamina doesn't matter so much, since it's to be used in opposite-spin (IE spin stealing).

MSF-L doesn't produce any lower recoil than MSF-M, and it's visibly slower. MSF-M is definitely the better choice IMO.

I'm honestly just ancy about getting the list updated. It doesn't have to be perfect, but we've had some major developments in the past few months and I feel like the info we have posted is outdated. Talking about little specs and doing testing on comparatively inconsequential details/testing new setups can wait a little IMO. I think we should just get what we have now posted, and then work on additions for the next iteration (changing up the details with what we've got now is fine; I'm talking like adding Flash SA165, messing around with the modes of SA165 on spin-equalizers, stuff like that which would require some long discussion and testing).

We should definitely crack down on that stuff once the list is updated, though.

EDIT: BTW, whoever wants W2D on the tier list, stop asking. Unless we find something that it actually does better than EWD, and can channel that into a competitive combination, it's never gonna happen.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 04, 2014

Higher Spin Velocity isn't actually quite right for weight distributions - your max rpm is the same at launch no matter what your beyblade as long as you have enough strength to launch it at the same speed. More centred weight distributions offer *something* (likely to do with the grinding effect plastics compacts and basalt both have), but as physics isn't my forte, I'm still working out how it all works.

Either way though, a more centred weight distribution doesn't equal higher speed at all - the reason for Wide Defense being the main Smash Attack WD in plastics is because it lets them move faster (while having enough weight to control recoil) - Ten Balance is the same weight but much more centred, and it has never been a good choice for smash attack. Why do you think MF-H slows it down so much? That extra weight is centred - if you were right, MF-H would work better than MF-M, just because it's so much heavier.
Weight also plays a part in speed, as it makes it harder for the rubber to move the beyblade but even though MF-M is lighter, the fact it's much more centred than MF-L is more significant.
Generally, that which is good for solo spin in terms of weight distribution on a properly balanced beyblade. Think about your Metal Ball and Plate on a dowel analogy - the plate is also going to move a lot more, no?

Also, if it is stealing spin at all (it really isn't significantly given bahamdia's shape so I'm just being pedantic but anyway) MF-L is going to be better as per why we don't have MF-M on LTD Spin Stealers.

Also personally I don't see how SA165 molds are any less important than metal faces, which also still require some discussion as to possibly benefits to Synchromes for using MF-M (basically why it was on there in the first place) sooo...

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - DRAGON KING - Feb. 04, 2014

(Feb. 02, 2014  6:45 AM)DRAGON KING Wrote: why isn't LRF an option on Flash, Wyvang Wyvang and Balro Balro?

So uh, I posted that^ but I guess it was overlooked....

Also, is there any specific reason PD isn't too tier on TH160 and 230?

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 04, 2014

D or WD apparently work better on everything but 160, at least that was what Ingulit found, which is the only real thorough data we have to go on, last I checked.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - [)ragon - Feb. 04, 2014

Usually, the more centered your weight, the easier/smoother it is to launch and reach maximum RPM. It's like having a longer winder. The quicker the Beyblade's rotation can accelerate, the faster it will be moving when it leaves the prongs.

Of course, if your an Alabaman with an obsession for little maintenance robots, and you can beat the carp out of competitive Stamina with an RS LTDC, assuming there is a limit to the speed you can launch it doesn't really matter, but yah.

It's mostly the higher velocity that helps the speed. I can personally launch smoother and faster when using MSF-M, and it definitely moves faster (may just be the lighter weight, but regardless it still works better than MSF-L from my experience).

If something's diameter is shorter, that means the circumference is shorter, which means the outer edge is actually moving slower (unless my math/physics are completely outa-whack right now, but I'm pretty sure that's right).

The closer to the center of the Beyblade the center of weight is, the shorter its diameter. That means that, for every rotation, the center of weight is covering a shorter distance (less use of energy per rotation), which makes the launch easier/multiplies the rotation by a higher number (again, if there is a reachable maximum RPM a string launcher can handle, and you can reach that RPM with any given Beyblade the effect is nullified).

My point was that the combo will still be able to maintain spin velocity near the beginning of the match when it's attacking (it really isn't supposed to win by OS against anything. It's a pure Attack type). Stamina is required to keep a constant assault going for as long as possible, but with an opposite-spin combo, it'll keep up as long as the opponent is still spinning relatively fast. I just really see no benefit to using MS-L. MSF-M is definitely visibly more effective for me. Faster, more maneuverable, and altogether more devestating.

It would't absolutely kill me to add MSF-L to Bahamdia Dragooon, but MSF-L Bahamdia Dragooon BD145RF... *barf*

Lol yah. I meant those things are a bit more serious in terms of discussion/testing, so we should wait 'till we can get a good discussion going, not that they were less important than Metal Faces (the opposite, actually).

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Kaneki - Feb. 04, 2014

Infact. I covered some PD on TH160 and 230 tests. I just never posted them. I wouldn't say "It's rubbish", but somewhat...

It did have some balance problems and last minute OS'S. I don't really like it on tracks such as 160, 230 ect.

Phantom Cygnus TH160 PD vs Duo Cancer TH160 D
Phantom: 9/20 (7 OS'S, 2 KO'S)
Duo: 11/20 (8 OS'S, 3 KO'S)
Phantom win %: 45.00%

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - DRAGON KING - Feb. 04, 2014

(Feb. 04, 2014  5:07 PM)" L Wrote: Infact. I covered some PD on TH160 and 230 tests. I just never posted them. I wouldn't say "It's rubbish", but somewhat...

It did have some balance problems and last minute OS'S. I don't really like it on tracks such as 160, 230 ect.

Phantom Cygnus TH160 PD vs Duo Cancer TH160 D
Phantom: 9/20 (7 OS'S, 2 KO'S)
Duo: 11/20 (8 OS'S, 3 KO'S)
Phantom win %: 45.00%
... How so many KOs?

The sun raider: that question was already answer in another thread. Flash is better.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - [)ragon - Feb. 04, 2014

(Feb. 04, 2014  5:07 PM)" L Wrote: Infact. I covered some PD on TH160 and 230 tests. I just never posted them. I wouldn't say "It's rubbish", but somewhat...

It did have some balance problems and last minute OS'S. I don't really like it on tracks such as 160, 230 ect.

Phantom Cygnus TH160 PD vs Duo Cancer TH160 D
Phantom: 9/20 (7 OS'S, 2 KO'S)
Duo: 11/20 (8 OS'S, 3 KO'S)
Phantom win %: 45.00%



Um... As far as I know, TH160 doesn't exist. :\

Even if it did, that's just a mirror match with Duo vs. Phantom. LOL that doesn't tell us which tracks it works on better.

We really need to get Ingulit down here if we're talking about PD. C'mon, if you're gonna go off on a reading blitz, now would be a good time...

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - DRAGON KING - Feb. 04, 2014

I said TH160 to XD. I meant TH170 Tongue_out

EDIT: if somebody has 2 duo's that would be great to test D vs PD.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - [)ragon - Feb. 08, 2014

So does anyone have any objections to this list?

We really just need to get this thing updated. The sooner a draft lands in the advanced forum, the better.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Ocean - Feb. 08, 2014

Dragooon
Quote: {MSF{-H}} (Reviser/Genbull/Killerken/Girago) Dragooon SA165[Normal] EWD
MSF-L Girago Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] EWD
What makes Girago dragooon SA165 (ZGA) EWD better than Genbull?

Quote:{MSF{-H}} Balro Balro (CH120/D125/T125/W145) (RF/R2F)
What's wrong w/ GB145?

Quote:Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 160 PD
Why not LW160?

Quote:MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 (RDF/RB)
MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) E230 (RDF/RSF/RB/CS)
I think MF-H should be optional.

Quote:MSF-H Revizer Genbull E230 (RDF/RB/RSF)
Coat Sharp my little buddy
Where did you go Crying

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - [)ragon - Feb. 08, 2014

Girago gives higher Precession, and steals spin more efficiently (seems to provide better balance as well for the most part).

LW160 was never really tested for Stamina. 160 works plenty well enough (not to mention LW160 gives huge air resistance without giving any down force, so so there's no real reason it would work as well/better. Could be wrong, but there's no real reason to add it at this point).

It's Defense, LOL MF-H is definitely essential (not to mention the reason Duo E230 was temporarily removed was because of its light weight).

I do not know why CS isn't on there. I'll add it.

W145 gives Balro more maneuverability/Stamina. Balro's high Stamina is a definite advantage over other Attack types, so maximizing it is optimal. Balro also has a little bit of trouble with movement on GB145, for reasons unknown to me. It even decreases its smash a bit IIRC. W145 is probably the best 145 height Track you can use with Balro (also since GB145 is used to reduce recoil, which Balro really doesn't have much of).

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 09, 2014

(Feb. 04, 2014  5:02 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Usually, the more centered your weight, the easier/smoother it is to launch and reach maximum RPM. It's like having a longer winder. The quicker the Beyblade's rotation can accelerate, the faster it will be moving when it leaves the prongs.

Of course, if your an Alabaman with an obsession for little maintenance robots, and you can beat the carp out of competitive Stamina with an RS LTDC, assuming there is a limit to the speed you can launch it doesn't really matter, but yah.

It's mostly the higher velocity that helps the speed. I can personally launch smoother and faster when using MSF-M, and it definitely moves faster (may just be the lighter weight, but regardless it still works better than MSF-L from my experience).
It doesn't take being Ingulit to not be affected by this. At the very least, it means the other options should be slashed on for those of us who have the strength to do this (launching is all about speed once you have the strength to overcome the inertia of the beyblade on the launcher). FWIW, the speed looks very similar to me, with MF-L having a slight edge.

Quote:If something's diameter is shorter, that means the circumference is shorter, which means the outer edge is actually moving slower (unless my math/physics are completely outa-whack right now, but I'm pretty sure that's right).

The closer to the center of the Beyblade the center of weight is, the shorter its diameter. That means that, for every rotation, the center of weight is covering a shorter distance (less use of energy per rotation), which makes the launch easier/multiplies the rotation by a higher number (again, if there is a reachable maximum RPM a string launcher can handle, and you can reach that RPM with any given Beyblade the effect is nullified).
This is actually correct on further googling/thinking it over more (I'm not being super-duper careful with my generally poor grasp of physics in this discussion because a) I'm not writing a formal article or something here and b) because I know you'll correct me if I'm way off-mark and I've wanted to check some of this stuff out for a while anyway, so I hope you don't mind).
There is a maximum amount of force any given launcher can manage as at a certain point they start to skip, at least in my experience (and I've gone through a lot of launchers in my time). Keep in mind that's FORCE, not RPM - I can launch anything in Limited on one of my LL2's but nothing from standard aside from Flash. I can actually get even RPM's out of an oiled up ZG Compact Launcher and a String Launcher because while the former takes more strength, I have that strength and the fastest I can get it to go is still at the same point a string launcher starts to skip anyway (so I have to pull the string at an angle, increasing friction to slow down my launch enough that it doesn't). Might actually be able to get more out of a ZGCL with some particularly wild launching, but it's hard to tell. EDIT: On trying with Gravity AD145WD (as I don't have any left ripcord launchers or right string launchers currently), I actually get slightly more outta the ZGCL, with no skipping. For heavier stuff like ZG, I don't notice a difference but I don't have any dual spin wheels to test that with.

As such, the bigger factor in how hard you can launch is weight. Try launching Bahamdia Orojya D125R2F (I am actually getting pretty good stuff outta it, tbh, it's just something I threw together the other day to test something very related to this idea out, as well as trying to find a use for Orojya (which is like a wide weight disk from plastics basically), that is turning into something I might even work on and then get a thread together for whatever comes of it when I'm not trying to conserve launchers so I can lend some out at my tournament). It's very wide, but it's a lot easier to launch than something like Wyvang Wyvang _____RF and it moves a lot faster.

Obviously launchwise it's a balance of the two, and this doesn't conflict with what you've said (MSF-L is heavier than MSF-M), but what I'm getting at is that it comes down to strength and also how good your launcher is skipping wise (particularly if you're using an LL2 - they start skipping very easily, which is something a lot of the changes between them and the ZGCL are aimed to address, particularly the lower friction, separate plastic pin at the top of the central shaft rather than part of the chassis, which wears down very quickly in LL2s even if oiled up, incredibly so if you're launching Synchromes (same goes for unoiled ZGCL, still super sad I messed up my second Takara one by using it without oiling it up). Once you're in the stadium though, well, I think you can probably dig up the old weight disks on attack combos discussion if you really want to examine the justification for it, but basically, I think we should list both.

Oh, also I'm pretty sure that if you have a more edge-distributed wheel, there's less forces acting on it to slow it back down in the launching process, which balances it out a bit too. But as we can plainly see, my grasp on physics is not the best.

Quote:My point was that the combo will still be able to maintain spin velocity near the beginning of the match when it's attacking (it really isn't supposed to win by OS against anything. It's a pure Attack type). Stamina is required to keep a constant assault going for as long as possible, but with an opposite-spin combo, it'll keep up as long as the opponent is still spinning relatively fast. I just really see no benefit to using MS-L. MSF-M is definitely visibly more effective for me. Faster, more maneuverable, and altogether more devestating.
Spin velocity isn't what you attack with though, your overall speed is. Weight just helps control recoil. This was settled back in the age of plastics and while they had less recoil so a lot of their lighter-weight focused stuff no longer applies so much in the much higher recoil MFB series, the weight distribution stuff still does.

Quote:It would't absolutely kill me to add MSF-L to Bahamdia Dragooon, but MSF-L Bahamdia Dragooon BD145RF... *barf*
The difference between RF/R2F in left speedwise is pretty minimal and a lot of people don't think it's even significant (heck I'm not even sure it's sizeable on Synchromes), so try to consider the other perspective on that part of it in this. Is there really any harm to you in listing them anyway? On playing around with them (and I now get very nice results with Bahamdia Dragooon BD145 RF fwiw) I really don't see a significant difference no matter what face I put on it, I think I can see perhaps that MSF-H is more consistent but less powerful, a regular face can hit really hard but suffers from a bit more recoil, and MSF-M/MSF-L are basically identical, though as I said MSF-L seems a little faster. The only significant difference I get is using R2F over RF, where Bahamdia starts to self-KO regularly (which is just my R2F, really, it just doesn't catch the ridge nicely). No difference at all in the launch, FWIW.
I find it rather amusing (not in an insulting way) that your example of the worst setup out of what we're discussing is not only the permutation of this combo, but probably the Attack combo I'd choose to use if I had a standard format tournament tomorrow. I really think that between the weight similarity and the general long-standing acceptance of weight-further-from-the-centre=faster the "default" shall we say would be to list it unless there's solid evidence that it isn't competitive (FWIW I really cannot do formal testing until my tournament is done and I don't have to worry so much about part/launcher wear). Write it off as a matter of YMMV, your personal favourite setup is there and so are those of others, so everyone is relatively happy, yeah?

Also personally I'd hold off re-adding CS to Reviser E230 unless you're sure it has good enough balance to make any use of the extra stamina, because MSF-H Reviser Reviser E230CS definitely doesn't and is also pitifully easy to KO (that Bahamdia Orojya combo I mentioned is KOing it off disk hits alone). In general, I still stand by the removal of CS from the defense list entirely - it's much more of a balance tip than a serious defense tip - with the weight and aggression being thrown around now, I just do not think plastic, even with rubber around it, stands up any more. Still, if you disagree then I won't argue this, as my CS's have significant rubber wear that could be affecting them somewhat.

Aside from that, I've raised a couple things about that list that are important - LRF on right spin attack types, and Ionis being removed from Flash, replaced with Uranus. I would also really like to get pictures of Beelzeb on it before it goes up but failing that, at least the spelling needs to be fixed (-ub removed), as well as the instances of "Reviser" that need to be changed to "Revizer". The rest, aside from what we're currently discussing with the faces, can wait, but those two things are absolutely essential in my opinion.

Oh and as for Ingulit, he's got some IRL stuff going on at the moment so I would be surprised to see him drop in to further discuss PD. That is something I think could wait for next update anyway.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Ocean - Feb. 09, 2014

Why not put it like this?

MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken/Genbull) (Revizer/Killerken) BD145 (RDF/RB/CS/RSF)
MSF-H Revizer (Reviser/Killerken/Genbull) E230 (RDF/RSF/CS/RB)

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 09, 2014

(Feb. 09, 2014  2:12 PM)Aquamarine Wrote: Why not put it like this?

MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken/Genbull) (Revizer/Killerken) BD145 (RDF/RB/CS/RSF)
MSF-H Revizer (Reviser/Killerken/Genbull) E230 (RDF/RSF/CS/RB)

Because Killerken Genbull is apparently not competitive yet it is available with your list. That also would require a change in how the list is organized as it would have no header, though that is something that could be done away with or altered to suit, it would also require further discussion (particularly with Kei as he generally has strong opinions on list formatting), so it is best left alone for the time being.

Speaking of which, TBD or anyone else who has a good idea of what they're talking about, is Killerken Killerken BD145 competitive defensively? If so, why is it not competitive with E230?