(Jun. 29, 2013  9:39 AM)th!nk Wrote: Finally got around to getting out a Uriel 2 tip setup to test the candidates for competitive attack AR's (i.e. testing under conditions where their recoil would be adequately controlled), which is basically the last thing I needed to check for the plastics cc list. Here are my notes. I used Triple Wing as a benchmark of sorts (though I also have some notes on that). I was just using them against Tiger Defenser/10 heavy/Metal Ball Base as it's not too hard to KO and behaves pretty consistently in general.

Combo:
AR: Independent Variable
WD: Wide Defense
SG: Right SG (Bearing Version 2) - Everything here was done in Right Spin.
SG Tip: SG Grip Change Base Tip (heavily worn, but I can still get it moving more than fast enough for this)
SP: Defense Ring (to minimise effect of matching/mismatched weight distros while still controlling recoil)
BB: Customize Bearing Base


Triple Wing: Generally considered the Benchmark Smash Attack AR, Triple Wing has somewhat less powerful smash attack compared to many of its compatriots (most notably Cross Griffon, which is perhaps its direct competitor for use in combinations), however the small slopes of its attack ring have a significant destabilization effect which then makes opponents more vulnerable to smash attack. This seems to be its primary method of KOing opponents, which means it has a fair bit in common with many left spin attack AR's (they destabilise by moving fast in opposite spin to their opponents to similar effect).

Now onto the rest:

Mirage Goddess: Disappointingly, it falls short of the amount of smash attack it would need to be considered competitive. This is due to the contact points facing a little too inward (visible because the outside of the tips of each "wing" have a lot of scrapes while the tips themselves aren't nearly as blunted as would occur if they were the prmary contact points). So yeah I was wrong about it - it didn't increase in power significantly when recoil was controlled.

Corona Saber: Just powerful enough to earn a spot, in large thanks to its ability to destabilize opponents. Very noticeable dependence on a good launch (launch well it'll wreak havoc, launch bad and you'll lose, much moreso than normal anyways) - probably because it's horrendous aerodynamics mean if you're not attacking from the start you waste a huge amount of energy due to air resistance - still, if you launch well then that is pretty negligible.

Delta Wave: A little too much recoil (rotational in particular) to deserve a spot with the power it produces. A shame.

Twin Horn (Hasbro) + Screw Zeus: This is what Deikailo recommended to me for right spin, but it doesn't stay in place that well or work that well when it does. Both parts can be used better.

War Lion + Screw Zeus: War lion holds the SAR in place well, however it's just not quite powerful enough to warrant a spot - Screw Zeus really needs an AR that contributes to its smash attack.

Dragon Breaker + Screw Zeus (Right Spin): A struggle to get it to go together with good alignment, but once you do, it works well in this direction too, I guess even facing the wrong way Dragon Breaker adds a fair bit to Screw Zeus). I'm sure that it'll show similar improvement on less worn SG Grip Change Base tips as it does in left spin as that's mostly a matter of its weight needing a bit more grip to get it up to a better speed for KO's. Still, this is a deadly setup.

Dark Wing (own SAR): Dark Wing exemplifies Hyper Aggressive Smash AR's - on grip base, it won't do anything. Put it on a setup that controls its recoil (particularly rotational recoil), and it transforms into some kind of violent, angry monster intent on sending things flying.


Also I mentioned some of this on my blog in comments on the most recent post but from previous days experimentation:

Bound Defense Ring works for compacts, it's kinda recoily but the flexibility of the SAR piece helps absorb a lot of it, so it works.

Roller Defense Ring is a great choice for anything where you want a small, low recoil AR, even though its weight distribution doesn't grant it the best stamina. It's an extremely defensive choice on pretty much anything it is used on, seeing as its main contact points are the rollers, which help disperse a reasonable amount of force from hits, and the rest is basically round plastic walls.

Fixed Wolborg 2 Shaft setups just aren't reliable or controllable enough to be considered competitive, even if you get them moving reliably the movement pattern you get is just too chaotic to be reliable given the short window of aggression it has.

Holy Dispell is too recoily to really be considered as meeting the standard set by war lion, tiger defenser, etc for anything it would be used for - probably tier two or thereabouts.

Hasbro Twin Horn doesn't work for compacts, the taller height of the AR combined with it's large size compared to War Lion means it provides more leverage to opponents and thus is less stable than other options (including Takara's Twin Horn, which is viable though personally I kinda worry about breakage a little as I've heard of it happening).

Gaia Dragoon G's SAR doesn't work on compacts, it just results in them losing stamina very quickly, it combines with the opposing beyblade to wear the compact it is used on down, so don't bother with it for compacts.

Fixing wolborg 4's CWD part in place using Zeus's base with Rock Bison's EG (one of the heaviest SG+BB section setups possible) produces a combo with a mix of the attributes (both good and bad) of weight based defense and circle survivor defense, though not really better or worse overall than either. Basically a hybrid of the two types. It's too tall to benefit from the effects of wide AR's (including smash turtle), too, but it's still good enough to be competitive IMO.

Lastly, the one Heavy Attack WD I have weighs around 16.09g, which is the same as most of my 10 Heavies - though I do have 10 Heavies up to 16.42g, that's only a few of the many I have. This means heavy attack is likely viable where weight is needed on combinations that keep it out of the way enough (because it is very recoily). This means the competitive uses are likely limited to certain weight based defense combinations (those with large/overhanging ARs), though really, Ten Heavy should have slightly better stamina and the same overall weight so Heavy Attack would probably be a secondary choice in that case (though it would align a little better with 3-sided ARs). I haven't done enough testing to say whether or not it is competitive and as I only have the one, it's entirely possible mine might be an outlier weight-wise (and the site we used for a lot of part weights is pretty unreliable on weight disk weights, so that doesn't really help). As such I'm going to leave it off the CC list for now.


Hope some of that is of interest to people, anyway. I'm off to get this CC list done.


EDIT: Oh, right, I forgot to include my notes on FACB with Spin Stealing Upper Attack. tl;dr I don't think it works as well as a fully free-spinning setup.

Using FACB results in less upper attack at start of match, though there is still a fair amount of destabilisation as a result of the fast-moving opposite spin destabilisation thing, and there is still some smash attack/upward smash too. However, generally a fully free spinning setup is more effective, as well as being easier to control. While FACB does seem to offer very slightly more LAD, the recoil of the AR and the fact it scrapes the ground means this often doesn't matter, so overall it's is a fairly negligible improvement vs the increased upper attack at the start of the match and better recoil control of the normal setup. Your mileage may vary, of course, but I saw no improvement in reliability and a significant reduction in controllability, so I don't think it deserves a spot on the cc list.

EDIT 2: Wing Cross Mold One does perform noticeably better than Mold Two. This becomes quite obvious with Wing Cross/Ten Balance/Semi Flat Base vs a 10H+HMC Driger S compact, where Mold Two suffers a lot of destabilization (I suspect this is because the rotational recoil means it is at a lower RPM than mold one, but either way it's quite obvious) which causes it to scrape to its death quite often (as long as Metal Change Base is launched correctly), whereas Mold One suffers nowhere near the same amount and thus wins by OS quite reliably.

EDIT 3: One other thing I forgot to mention, I tried SG Bolt Base (Orthrus) for compacts seeing as I got decent performance out of it when I tried it quickly a while back. Sadly it didn't work anywhere near as well as I remembered, doesn't have enough stamina to take on the other compact BB's successfully (which was more in line with what I actually expected of it), particularly due to poor LAD. Oh well.