World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc.

Guys, the tone really needs to change here. People arguing against the ban are just as good as you are.

I apologize if I sounded hostile there (or in whichever post you're referring to, if it wasn't the last one). I didn't intend to, but I do have a tendency to get annoyed at people if I don't think they're making sense. It's a character flaw. :\

To be clear, I certainly don't think I'm better than anyone arguing against the ban, and I'm ashamed if that's something I've implied - I just think that repeating the same arguments over and over again after they've already been responded to is kind of pointless, and especially irritating to me personally. I'm particularly frustrated that the very arguments being repeated over and over and over and over are some of the first to be addressed in the OP, which I worked very long and hard on, for this very reason.

My apologies Leone19 (or anyone else I've struck a hostile tone with). I propose we turn this discussion in a more beneficial direction. No more repeating the same arguments, for either side. Let's attempt to make this as mature and organized a discussion as possible, so we can seriously investigate the possibility of a ban on this thing. Dark is right; this "petty" arguing is getting us nowhere.

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As far as I can tell, we've already covered why it's worthy of a ban. It has very few viable counters (arguably none), it dominates regions where it is used (although the Canadians do not seems to have much of a problem with it between themselves), it becomes virtually the only viable form of custom in a metagame where it is heavily abused, and it creates a very unhealthy atmosphere for tournament players and takes away enormously from the tactical and knowledge-intensive aspect of the game.

As for reasons it doesn't deserve a ban, we've observed that, although they are relatively inconsistent and/or uncompetitive (and I think we can all agree with that, regardless of what side of the argument you're on), there are a couple of select customs that can beat it under certain circumstances. Thus it is not unbeatable. We have also observed that the Canadians do not have much of a problem with it among themselves (although it would seem that if players from outside there tournament region abuse F230 in one of their events, we get the same effect we see in other regions - however, among themselves, it would seem that their ZRG metagame is relatively healthy despite Dragooon F230CF/GCF's presence).

You all know my objections to the points in paragraph 2, and you all know the opposing side's objections to the points in paragraph 1.

That's a basic, summarized run-down on what we have so far (as neutral as I can make it). Now, I would encourage the bladers opposing a ban to present some examples of actual benefits the game would see if the ban was refuted (related to the game itself, not the financial interests of the owners of F230). We know there are cons - IMO we need to see some pros if we're not to go through with this ban.

People said the meta would go back to Duo and Dragooon; not true. The meta evolved because of F230, it won't just die down to something simple like that. I know me, and several other bladers wouldn't go back to that. Take a step back and look at the meta as a whole my dudes. What would be best and why?

Part availability/cost issues have no bearing on anything, I can guarantee that.

Guys, can some of you try posting test results for the following match-ups?:

• Duo Cygnus SA165TB vs. Genbull Genbull F230CF/GCF
  
• Duo Cygnus SA165BWD vs. Genbull Genbull F230CF/GCF
  
• Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD vs. Genbull Dragooon F230CF/GCF
  
• Killerken Dragooon SA165TB vs. Genbull Dragooon F230CF/GCF
  
• Wyvang Dragooon SA165 (Attack Mode) GCF vs. Genbull Dragooon F230CF/GCF
  
• Bahamdia Dragooon E230 (Boost Mode) CF/GCF vs. Genbull Dragooon F230CF/GCF
  

Any Zero-G Stadium is good. In fact, if you can do tests in more than one stadium, even better.

If you can only do a couple of them, that's fine. Anything helps. If we're talking about banning a part, I think it's important that we post current test results backing up whatever arguments we make, especially at this point where we have gone through discussion for so long and are coming close to having to make a decision. It's certainly better than endlessly talking based on our opinions that were formed from previous experience.

And to be clear, I'm not saying that all of these match-ups should necessarily be in favour of the non-F230 customs based on my experience. I just think it would be helpful to be able to compare test results from multiple members of the same match-ups. I might be able to do some of these tomorrow, but if not, I'll try to do them sometime next week when I return from my trip.

Also a friendly reminder for the standardized surface area: Cardboard please, to minimize discrepancies.

I can finish those within two days, cool?
I'll do banking and non banking, it'd be great to have someone to help though 0-0

Zero-G Attack Stadium
Launcher Grip + BeyLauncher L + Launcher Rubber + BeyPointer
TAKARA-TOMY Orange F230
Alternating launches for Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD vs. Genbull Dragooon F230GCF
Killerken Dragooon SA165TB launched first against Genbull Dragooon F230GCF
Attack combos launched second in their match-ups.
F230 weak-launched against Attack types

Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD vs. Genbull Dragooon F230GCF
Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD: 15 wins
Genbull Dragooon F230GCF: 5 wins
F230GCF win percentage: 25%

Take these results with a grain of salt because my launching technique wasn't consistent throughout. When I straight shot, F230 had no chance of winning. I personally couldn't Sway KO my BWD. However, when banked, it can win if it gets some good powerful shots in on BWD and knocks it off balance. This was much easier to do when I launched Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD first. However, I still found it to not be reliable: sometimes you can land a great hit with Genbull Dragooon F230GCF right off the bat, but if it doesn't hit it correctly, it can launch itself into a circular movement pattern, eventually losing the round.

Not an unwinnable match-up for F230, but a little tough. Requires great launching ability.

Killerken Dragooon SA165TB vs. Genbull Dragooon F230GCF
Killerken Dragooon SA165TB: 8 wins
Genbull Dragooon F230GCF: 2 wins
F230GCF win percentage: 20%

Same deal here: you have to bank deeply. However, maybe I just suck at it because in the OP the results are much different. This proves to me that it isn't an incredibly easy thing to do for just anyone who you place a F230 into the hands of, though. That's important to realize.

Wyvang Dragooon SA165 (Attack Mode) GCF vs. Genbull Dragooon F230GCF
Wyvang Dragooon SA165 (Attack Mode) GCF: 8 wins
Genbull Dragooon F230GCF: 12 wins
F230GCF win percentage: 60%

Seems consistent with what I was saying earlier. It's a toss up. You have to be really careful with weak launching in this situation, because if not, you run the risk of being OSed by the Attack type, which happened once here.

Bahamdia Dragooon E230 (Boost Mode) GCF vs. Genbull Dragooon F230GCF
Bahamdia Dragooon E230 (Boost Mode) GCF: 13 wins
Genbull Dragooon F230GCF: 6 wins
1 draw
F230GCF win percentage: 30%

Same deal here, again. Sway KOs were much more effortless and consistent than the SA165 ones. Also probably helps that E230 + Bahamdia makes the combo more bulky in general, which makes it harder to self-KO (although that did account for three of its losses).

Didn't have time to do Duo/Genbull Genbull tests, unfortunately. I would imagine the results would be similar to the Killerken Dragooon tests, though.

Just a little something - in testing against SA165BWD, I would personally launch F230 first every round. It tends to be hurt easily if it gets into a perfect stall, and then the stall is broken by a combination launched afterwards. In reality, both combinations would hit the ground simultaneously, and, since BWD has virtually no movement pattern, launching it first every round is a much better simulation of two players launching at the same time IMHO.

Also, Genbull Dragooon F230GCF is usually used with MSF-H (to help against ZRG Attack, and to increase the damage inflicted by force smashing against Dragooon Stamina combinations). MSF-H Genbull Dragooon F230GCF is the most common/dangerous variant.

The results against Bahamdia Dragooon E230GCF are very interesting, though. I think I have to try that right now.

Alright, I did some tests. Keep in mind I have an orange Hasbro F230, so these may not be as meaningful as the TT ones, but I hope they count for something. These were done in the Zero-G Attack Stadium. I always launched the Stamina custom first, and just didn't use Metal Faces due to only having one MSF set and wanted to keep the weights the same for each test.


The only opponents that beat it really consistently were Dragooon TB and Duo TB, but for the most part, F230 did a relatively solid job against things that are supposed to counter it.

EDIT: Double posted on accident.

(Jul. 12, 2014  11:38 PM)Wombat Wrote: [ -> ]Genbull Genbull F230GCF vs. Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD
Genbull: 12 wins (10KO, 2OS)
Dragooon: 8 wins (6OS, 2KO)
2 ties redone
Genbull win rate: 60%

That's a reeeeeaaally jacked up F230 bro, haha (well, not jacked up for a Hasbro Track, but still nowhere near comparable to an orange Takara one).

Anywho, Kei, I tried that bulky (and super cool-looking) ZRG Attack custom, and... uh, I have some bad (probably better to say "weird") news:

MSF-H Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. MSF-H Bahamdia Dragooon E230GCF
Dragooon F230 launched first on all launches.
F230: wins, 16/20 (12 KO, 4 OS)
E230: wins, 4/s0 (2 KO, 2 OS)
MSF-H Genbull Dragooon F230GCF win rate: 80%

I was really surprised at this; until I realized I had been using the non-boost mode on E230 (which usually doesn't change much, but I figured that was probably the cause in this case).

Then I did these:

MSF-H Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. MSF-H Bahamdia Dragooon E230GCF (Boost)
Dragooon F230 launched first on all launches.
F230: wins, 17/20 (16 KO, 1 OS)
E230: wins, 13/20 (All KO)
MSF-H Genbull Dragooon F230GCF win rate: 57%

Definitely closer, but almost double the win rate you got.

After this, I commenced to do like a hundred rounds of informal testing, and I had horrible consistency. F230 would be kicking butt, and then suddenly, Bahamdia Dragooon would turn the tables and KO for like 15 rounds straight. Then F230 would dominate for like 20 rounds. Then Bahamdia Dragooon would get like 20 KOs in a row. It went back and forth.

That said, I really don't know how to judge this combination. The results I got were so inconsistent, either side could take it easily in a tournament. I wasn't doing anything different.

Maybe it was just crazy luck, but still. It was legit weird.

What? How on earth did the results suddenly turn quite inconsistent? I was expecting absolute domination of one or the other.

EDIT: No offense to anyone, just saying, hah

Any factors are room for error (I say error in the sense of flawing results).
Launch technique, speed of launch, power of launch. TBD's 100% might be Kei's 80% or whatever.
So many factors to enter.

Equipment:
BBG-03 Zero-G Stadium Attack Type
Beylauncher + Launcher Rubber
Beylauncher L/R + Launcher Rubber

Conditions:
Cardboard playing surface
Duo in Stamina Mode
SA165 in Normal Mode
E230 in "Boost Mode"
Red Hasbro F230
All Beys launched straight


Genbu Genbu F230GCF vs. Duo Gasher SA165BWD:
- Duo Gasher always launched first
GG: 20/30 (1 OS, 19 KO)
DG: 10/30 (8 OS, 2 KO)
Ties: 1
F230GCF Win Rate: 66.7%


Genbu Genbu F230GCF vs. Duo Gasher SA165TB:
- Duo Gasher always launched first
GG: 10/30 (10 KO)
DG: 20/30 (14 OS, 6 KO)
Ties: 1
F230GCF Win Rate: 33.3%


Genbu Dragooon F230GCF vs. Kraken Dragoon SA165BWD:
- Kraken Dragoon always launched first
GD: 14/30 (14 KO)
KD: 16/30 (12 OS, 4 KO)
Ties: 0
F230GCF Win Rate: 46.7%


Genbu Dragooon F230GCF vs. Kraken Dragoon SA165TB:
- Kraken Dragoon always launched first
GD: 10/30 (2 OS, 8 KO)
KD: 20/30 (11 OS, 9 KO)
Ties: 0
F230GCF Win Rate: 33.3%


Genbu Dragooon F230GCF vs. Bahamoote Dragoon E230GCF:
- Launches alternated
GD: 19/30 (9 OS, 10 KO)
BD: 11/30 (1 OS, 10 KO)
Ties: 0
F230GCF Win Rate: 63.3%


Like Wombat's orange Hasbro F230, my red one lost relatively consistently against the TB customs, but still did pretty well against everything else. I was also really impressed by F230's stamina proficiency in the E230GCF matchup; if neither Bey was KO'd early on, then F230GCF usually won by OS.

To think I've been using E230 on my Zero-G Attackers all this time when I've had these F230s, ha ha...

I think TB is the best bet. I'll post some of my own tests with TB.

I do not know about everyone else's red F230, but mine is the absolute worst ...

Yeah, as someone who's advocating for the ban, I feel like testing using a Hasbro F230 is a little misleading because the molds, particularly the red, have little to no free spinning capability when unmodified. I guess you could argue and say that even the worst molds are putting up decent numbers, but the item(s?) in question are really the orange and brown Takara Tomy tracks.

(Jul. 16, 2014  1:09 AM)The Supreme One Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, as someone who's advocating for the ban, I feel like testing using a Hasbro F230 is a little misleading because the molds, particularly the red, have little to no free spinning capability when unmodified. I guess you could argue and say that even the worst molds are putting up decent numbers, but the item(s?) in question are really the orange and brown Takara Tomy tracks.

Well so you're saying that since Orange is so hard to get it shouldn't be banned?

(Jul. 16, 2014  1:28 AM)Lord Wrote: [ -> ]

(Jul. 16, 2014  1:09 AM)The Supreme One Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, as someone who's advocating for the ban, I feel like testing using a Hasbro F230 is a little misleading because the molds, particularly the red, have little to no free spinning capability when unmodified. I guess you could argue and say that even the worst molds are putting up decent numbers, but the item(s?) in question are really the orange and brown Takara Tomy tracks.

Well so you're saying that since Orange is so hard to get it shouldn't be banned?

I think she's saying that Red F230 testing is irrelevant.

(Jul. 16, 2014  1:53 AM)Echizen Wrote: [ -> ]

(Jul. 16, 2014  1:28 AM)Lord Wrote: [ -> ]

(Jul. 16, 2014  1:09 AM)The Supreme One Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, as someone who's advocating for the ban, I feel like testing using a Hasbro F230 is a little misleading because the molds, particularly the red, have little to no free spinning capability when unmodified. I guess you could argue and say that even the worst molds are putting up decent numbers, but the item(s?) in question are really the orange and brown Takara Tomy tracks.

Well so you're saying that since Orange is so hard to get it shouldn't be banned?

I think she's saying that Red F230 testing is irrelevant.

Ok. That's true. Since in both Standard and Potential Zero-G Top Tier lists we only list Orange F230 and not any other mold.

What Echizen said, thought I was trying to phrase it a little nicer lol. Right now, the Hasbro molds, unmodified, don't pose a threat whatsoever in any format.

I do, however, think that the brown F230 needs to be looked into. Mine broke a month or two ago, but from what I remember, it's significantly better than red and orange Hasbro molds and not a whole lot worse than Takara Tomy's orange.

(Jul. 16, 2014  2:12 AM)The Supreme One Wrote: [ -> ]I do, however, think that the brown F230 needs to be looked into. Mine broke a month or two ago, but from what I remember, it's significantly better than red and orange Hasbro molds and not a whole lot worse than Takara Tomy's orange.

There are some that are most certainly comparable to the Takara Orange, then there are some that work terribly, not even being able to free spin as much on CF, or GCF when tilted down.

Nobody can deny that it'd be quite a pain to constantly keep on checking if a user is using a good Red or Brown F230, or not, if they make use of one, Zero-G Tournament wise, of course.

Edit: If I can get someone to bring anyone of their Zero-G Stadiums this coming Sunday to Toronto's next tournament, I'd definitely be able to both perform, and post tests that same day.

(Jul. 16, 2014  1:09 AM)The Supreme One Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, as someone who's advocating for the ban, I feel like testing using a Hasbro F230 is a little misleading because the molds, particularly the red, have little to no free spinning capability when unmodified. I guess you could argue and say that even the worst molds are putting up decent numbers, but the item(s?) in question are really the orange and brown Takara Tomy tracks.

I should've made it clear originally, but your second point is what I was really trying to draw attention to. If even I could pull numbers as high as some of those with the alleged worst version of F230, and on cardboard no less, then you can just imagine what somebody with a good orange Takara Tomy F230 should be able to do.

I can definitely do comparison tests with an orange Takara F230 once the one I ordered arrives, though.

Sure, how long until it arrives ?

If F230 does not get banned, it's legality should not be on the grounds that the version that dominates the game is hard to acquire without luck/money. If it does get banned I think all variations of the part should be banned, not only for simplicity's sake but also because the definition of a "good" F230 is very subjective. There have been cases of orange TT duds, and Hasbros or TT browns that can hold a candle to good TT oranges.

Basically what Angry Face was saying. Although we do not have the best F230s, we are still able to score a decent amount of wins against F230's counters.

(Jul. 16, 2014  4:10 AM)Wombat Wrote: [ -> ]If F230 does not get banned, it's legality should not be on the grounds that the version that dominates the game is hard to acquire without luck/money. If it does get banned I think all variations of the part should be banned...

Outside of the Limited format, it's always been the case. Plus, it was re-addressed already on the last page.

(Jul. 12, 2014  7:07 AM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]Part availability/cost issues have no bearing on anything, I can guarantee that.