Kei Wrote:The point has never been that Toronto never uses it–we certainly do; I mean, just take a look at some BeyChannel videos–but that it hasn't been as overwhelmingly great as it seems to be for you guys. The biggest issue I can remember is that we haven't had issues with left-spin SA165BWD combos outspinning left-spin F230, while you apparently do.
Oh, I didn't mean you guys didn't use it - I was referring to your witnessing it used by MD players firsthand.
Kei Wrote:I don't know where you're getting that "dozen or so times" number or any of that information from, but yes, it was used a lot in GRAND BATTLE ENCORE: Zero-G. I'm pretty sure every one of my five battles against geetster99 in that tournament were right/left-spin variants of F230 versus F230 lol.
I got the "dozen or so" from multiple PMs I received back from Geetster and Sniper - I asked them to list as many matches as they could remember; I guess they may have missed some (that or they didn't clarify which were F230 vs. F230, of which until now I assumed there was only 1 of).
5 matches of F230 vs. F230? Sounds like you've experienced a little of what NC had last summer through Autumn. Glad we're finally pretty much on the same page.
Kei Wrote:If we were to ban it, what would you guys guess the metagame would look like? I haven't looked through this entire thread, so if you've already done that feel free to point it out to me.
Oh goody:
If F230 were removed, I would theorize that we'd see pretty much a perfect balance between Stamina, Defense and Attack; or at least, a closer balance than we've seen in any other format. B : D and SA165 would continue to dominate the conventional Stamina spectrum, with Duo and Dragooon appearing exclusively with D-series Bottoms to compete with each other, and probably several Genbull TB combinations would pop up. With so many B : D/SA165EWD/BWD/W2D Stamina combinations everywhere, I believe we'd see plenty of Zero-G Attack used, which would likely trigger the frequent use of E230MB customs, which function as both counters to LTSC combos via destabilization, and effective Zero-G Defense customs. Of course, we'd probably see RS and RSF used as well for a more purely Defensive approach. To adapt to the E230MB combinations, I'd expect to see Duo 230TB/MB combinations as well, which would encourage the use of Dragooon spin stealers, encouraging the use of Duo B : D/SA165 customs, encouraging the use of Zero-G Attack... and the whole circle repeats itself, with several interesting criss-cross paterns in between.
I got butterflies in my stomach writing that paragraph. XD
Kei Wrote:I have been thinking in the back of my mind for a while that regardless of that specific match-up I just described, maybe it's time for F230 to go simply to open the format up a bit to different options.
You have no idea how happy it makes me just reading that sentence. If we banned this thing, I would just... *SNIFF*
...That would just be the most amazing thing ever.
: I'm pretty sure you're kind of the only one who really wants it to stay (well, at least enough to debate the topic - no one else is speaking up).
TBH, I don't know why you do; regardless of whether you think the part is worthy of a ban, I think everyone can agree that the format would be so much more fun without it. So we ban it - nobody will be able to use it (which I think would be just the coolest, most unbelievably awesome thing ever), but even if you think that's actually a bad thing (which I still don't get), you can't deny that the format as a whole would be far, far more interesting, and would generate a far more competitive atmosphere.
-G Attack vs. F230: F230 does usually win. Wombat's experience was in our very first tournament in which F230 was spammed, and his opponents neglected to weak launch (except for me, the third player he faced). Aside from that, we've seen F230 vs. ZRG Attack several times since then, and IIRC not one of them resulted in a loss for F230.
Yes, it's one of your best shots, but it isn't a very good one to say the least (not to mention the fact that ZRG Attack is much more difficult to use in a tournament setting).