World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc.

Full Version: Where is this game going?
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
So this is exactly the same thing as the tier vs. skill thread and concept...

Okay. I agree with Think here. I also considered that Diablo would be a new attack wheel and the rest of his list will go as mentioned. However, I believe that the skilled players will still stay along the lines of VariAres and Blitz because of how pronounced their "wings" are. Diablo is more rounded and it may not allow as much power to be exerted upon contact with other metal wheel. I do believe that a decline in VariAres will also be seen when facing Basalt wheels because as I found out and came to a final conclusion about based only on the average skilled attack based player's results, worn Basalts are harder to KO than new/mildly use Basalts due to the fact that there is nothing for Vari's edges to catch onto and fling out.

Skill will be definitely questioned as these future releases become competitive due the how much they will vary in terms of performance and use, especially in Diablo's case.
(Dec. 21, 2011  6:53 AM)Hazel Wrote: [ -> ]Aha, I believe I know what it was - it was something someone mentioned a long time ago about the non-Japanese WBBA. It may have been Uwik that mentioned it, but I am not sure - regardless, I could not find it, but I -definitely- read something along those lines on the WBO at one point or another.

Nevertheless, you can simply exclude that segment from my post and still see what I was talking about, haha.

I think it was Pcyborg talking about Libra, not Basalt, and that was just the Singaporean WBBA's weird explanation of the Libra Wheel ban when TAKARA-TOMY's reason was clearly different, and more based on the metagame, because it got unbanned the second Basalt was released.

You would probably agree that precision and correct information are very important.

So this thread is just an excuse to speculate on future Metal Wheels' performances ? We do not allow it in other topics, so I do not see why it could be done here.
And guess what, all beys except for Diablo are completely circular...
It has kinda become a norm since the release of Phantom...
Circular wheels, which are heavy beyond limit, are what makes me believe that this meta is being destroyed...
As mentioned before, every new release is outclassing the existing beys. This is a good sign, its good to see new beys perform well.
@th!nk- Whatever you said, I believe you completely. Just that I am still positive on Diablo not dominating THAT much, and also that SWD (the re-incarnation of the amazing DS) should work well too.

This is an amazing thread, Yamislayer! *salutes*
I have observed the meta-game quite well, but never been a part of it. I tried to be once, but was smacked in the face right after. I bought Hell Kerbecs to "remain Competitive" but Scythe Kronos outclassed it soon enough. I watched on as a spectator as the 4D series brought with it the heavier wheels. The Maximum Series, as stated, is where it all started. The three revolutionary parts- Basalt, BD145 and 230 were too much to take. We were able to take them down with an LLD combo, but LLD had to work in collaboration with its opponents. To beat the maximum beys, it had to make use of a Maximum part itself. Other parts became useless.
Look at LLD now...
Its resorted to the dark corners of our meta, completely abandoned...
After reading this thread, I actually feel that the "unlucky people" who whine about not being able to buy TT beys (I am one of them), are actually more lucky. They have a definite reason before making any purchase, they enjoy battling a Storm against Earth... They still play with their LLDs. Its like a tribe living secluded from the outside world, celebrating a part that was top tier a century ago...
No wonder Beyblade is a hobby requiring high investments. Every new release brings in a threat to the existing top tiers, which sounds good. But seriously, where is our meta-game going? All beys occupy the throne momentarily, enjoy their one-day stay, and are booed off by its 'rightful occupant'...
The crown is subjected to a game of 'Passing the Parcel', but in this, you are out the very moment you give away the crown. There is no serious competition whatsoever, the Royal Family still rules... The commoners are still commoners... The King bestows the crown to his son, and he in turn to his son and so on.
The former Kings were replaced; not by the existing beys(referred to as commoners in my example) but by a new comer(referred to as the one who inherited the throne from the King) in the game.
All of 'em actually get a place in the "Hall Of Fame" instead of the stadium. Their glories, which are outdone by a newcomer within a day, are just stories to be narrated in front of a camp-fire. :\
A 'Beyblade Version' of a famous poem by W. Shakespeare(troll alert Tongue_out)-
All the BB-10s are a stage,
and all beys merely players.
And one bey in its time plays many parts,
its acts being three phases.
First is its release,
welcomed by all bladers with great enthusiasm.
Then a cameo in the stadium,
ripping apart its opponents.
Then the phase when it gets outclassed,
abandoned and alone,
right at the back of a blader's collection.

Meh.... :\ This sucks. Come in, get outclassed, get out.
I don't think it's for spectulation; the way I first saw it was a thread for us to post our thoughts on game-breaking parts being released one after another, and continuously having to buy the new releases.

I think it's kind of ridiculous. Sure, TT advertises beys to be as well as they can to make more money, but it's pretty bad for us folks that have to import them. We see that parts are good; we want good parts so that we can be good in competition. Then we end up having no money left at all when the end-all parts of MFB are released, and everything before that is in the same position as Galaxy.

Just my two cents here.
I've really disliked how release after release are incredibly amazing.

Scythe Kronos is released, and is pretty good in the stamina department. It could OS Basalt (the powerhouse before this huge montage of releases) but it could be beaten. This is pretty much what started the 'BEAT BASALT' releases, imo.

When VariAres was released, I was like 'Oh God, I hope this thing sucks, I really do not want to buy this thing' then it turns out it's a monster for attack in the right hands. Another thing that can beat Basalt, and this one can decimate it.

Add something to my Need to Buy list.

Then the Strongest Blader Set is released, something I bought FOR the Basalt. Then as these things are getting tested, it is shown Blitz can also decimate Basalt. Basalt was becoming less and less...

Then comes Phantom Orion. Oh, man, Phantom Orion. Phantom was like Scythe 2.0, and OS many Basalt combos if itself was on the right setup. B:D wasn't as good as everyone hoped, but it could be used to some effect.

Death Quetzalcoatl. Death and RDF become the new Basalt and CS. Death has less recoil than Basalt and weighed a few grams less than Basalt, making it virtually even compared to Basalt.
Now I should buy this to stay competitive (I still hope I can compete in a tournament :P)

The latest release, Ultimate DX Set. Duo Uranus completely washes out Basalt, becoming probably the safest choice in defense/stamina if th!nk does not exaggerate its power (I'm like 100% sure he doesn't, he's not that kind of guy). I would buy this, if it wasn't a 70 dollar set for one completely viable MW.

In my opinion, all 4D has turned into BEAT BASALT and that's what most of it has done so far; beat Basalt. But if almost EVERY release can beat Basalt and then some, it's gonna be considered overpowered to me. As for RBV9, I'm glad that if I were to buy one, it's not gonna be amazing if Fusion isn't pulled (IF Fusion is performs as well as everyone hopes) because I could get things that aren't very good (Torch and Midnight :3).

For all we know, this could be TAKARA-TOMY ending with MFB with a bang... basically, what I'm saying is that I really do not want to buy almost EVERY release to stay with the current metagame.
EDIT: Now that I read the BB-121 topic, I realize that everything else isn't bad -.-"
I think that it might be helpful to pause and stop looking backwards for a moment. Instead, imagine that the game is starting right now and you don't have any beys at all.

Some existing parts are tested to be good, some are not so good, and there is a lot of speculation as to whether the parts about to be released are good or not. If you want to play competitively today, you make the decision to buy the good parts that are available today.

In general, there is an expectation that parts to be released in the future will have the strong potential to be better than the parts of today - because otherwise why would anyone buy them? Yes, this has changed in execution from a good-to-better upgrade, to being a great-to-"super great" upgrade path, but that is the natural progression of improvement. We know that in addition to the parts we buy today to play competitively today, we will also be buying the good parts of tomorrow to play competitively tomorrow.

So, from today's point of view my expectation is that I will be buying more beys in the future to remain competitive - and it should be your expectation as well. Also, your expectation should be that we will all be in exactly the same position "tomorrow" (3 months or 6 months from now): the beys you have today will work today, but you will still need to buy more beys to remain competitive in the future.

To wish that this cycle would end is to wish for the death of this generation of beyblades. To be clear, the buying cycle will only end when TakaraTomy stops releasing MFB beys. Is that what you really want? The end of MFB? This day will come sooner or later, but my hope is that it comes much later.

There is another position being stated here though, which is that the cycles are happening too fast. For most bladers there are very real constraints on how many beys they can buy at one time, and it would appear that TakaraTomy is releasing beys faster than many budgets can accommodate.

I think that this is a valid complaint, and that perhaps it is an error that TakaraTomy will end up paying for in sales levels that fall below projections. With any luck, TakaraTomy will slow down the release schedule for new beys after this large bolus of new parts hits the market, and we will have a period of relative stability to follow. Yes, some bladers will have new parts before others, and they will have a competitive advantage because of that. But this has always been the case.

So, instead of lamenting the parts we own that are no longer competitive, or feeling bitter about having to buy new parts today and in the future, I would suggest that we take a moment to reflect and be thankful that our hobby is still alive and well with new parts being released at all.
I don't agree.
When i started playing new parts were strong, but not outclassing old ones.
and it lasted over a year with everyone playing at high levels without having to buy a bey once per day.

I'm nt thankful that our hobby is still alive with new parts, cause I once experienced that it could be more than alive when things were balanced.

as you stated
"Yes, some bladers will have new parts before others, and they will have a competitive advantage because of that. But this has always been the case."

That's exactly the point:
you own a new part: you have a bit of advantage over your opponents

You own a new part: Laugh at people who is still trying to outspin your phantom with their basalt.

just an example but the fact we had "good to better" and now we have "great to SUPER-great"
is really annoying,

just my 2 cents
(Dec. 21, 2011  3:30 PM)Kai-V Wrote: [ -> ]I think it was Pcyborg talking about Libra, not Basalt, and that was just the Singaporean WBBA's weird explanation of the Libra Wheel ban when TAKARA-TOMY's reason was clearly different, and more based on the metagame, because it got unbanned the second Basalt was released.

You would probably agree that precision and correct information are very important.

So this thread is just an excuse to speculate on future Metal Wheels' performances ? We do not allow it in other topics, so I do not see why it could be done here.

Ahah, that was it, thank you. It would've bothered me all week. I apologize for the confusion either way.

I do not think this thread has that primary function, it's just kind of a side consequence. There is still at least some discussion to be had here, but when it starts getting too repetitive I will keep an eye on it.
I hope this doesn't turn into an argument in the future anytime soon.
Anyways, since all of this talk will take a while to sink in,
this is TTs way of saying:
''Here is Phantom Orion! Awesome Stamina, Awesome etc. Now here is Diablo Nemesis! The Heaviest Legal Beyblade ever! Now spend more money to buy the new 4Ds because they're almost in a different league than pre-4D!''
About a month and a half ago, I posted this in the Kreis Cygnus thread. It seems relevant to what is being discussed here:
(Nov. 02, 2011  1:53 AM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]
(Nov. 01, 2011  5:45 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: [ -> ]How many circular Beyblades does there need to be?

Recent designs are very uninspiring, even if they perform well. But part of the Beyblade design team's job should be to create parts that perform well but not too well (see: every circular Beyblade).

They have created some more 'radical' designs lately (Beat, Blitz, VariAres, etc.), but I wholeheartedly agree with your statement regarding the job of the Beyblade design team; it's easy to design a cylindrical wall (Basalt), it's easy to design a circular disk with a free-spinning ring (Scythe Kronos), it's easy to design a circular Wheel with all of the weight focused on the outside (Phantom).

It's like they don't understand what the middle-ground is, and because of that, to counteract the powerful circular Wheels, they have to release ridiculously designed Smash Attack Wheels like VariAres. I said it a few months ago and I'll say it again; TAKARA-TOMY is heading down a dangerous path.

They've been going from "great to SUPER-great", like Yamislayer said. All of their parts have not just been good, they've been consistently more powerful than the parts that preceded them. This is to be expected in a competitive hobby, but the jump has been too great, and it's come too quickly.

As has been alluded to by others, I think the Maximum Series was the crux of everything. TAKARA-TOMY could have very easily released a version of Basalt that was three or four grams lighter; they could have very easily released a version of BD145 that didn't extend past the diameter of most Wheels at the time; they could have very easily released 170 instead of 230. They could have continued the "good to better" trend rather than making the jump to "good to SUPER-great". Perhaps they view Beyblade has having a certain life expectancy, but no one would have complained at the time if they went this route and continued the evolution of the game at a slower pace.

I understand the need to release more powerful parts, but unless you know that the line is going to be coming to an end soon, why would you continuously release overpowered parts? From a marketing standpoint, something like Phantom is very easy to advertise; "Best Stamina Bey ever!!" = Automatic buy for all competitive Bladers. The same goes for everything in the Maximum Series: "Tallest Track ... ever!!", "Heaviest Wheel ... ever!!", "Widest Wheel/Track ... ever!!". All of this is very enticing for people who want to do well at tournaments. As a result, they're effectively forced to purchase the newest parts. Making something with the goal of it being the "best ever" is very easy to do, and as a result, it's a cinch to advertise as well.

Just think, before the Maximum Series here is a list of Wheels that were usable (not necessarily the "best", but they could be used):

Attack: Lightning, Storm, Ray, Leone, Gravity, Vulcan, Quetzalcoatl, Pegasis, Rock, Sagittario, L Drago
Stamina: Earth, Flame, Burn, Thermal, Virgo, Libra
Defense: Earth, Libra, Pisces

And as the game stands now:

Attack: VariAres, Blitz, Beat
Stamina: Phantom, Scythe, Duo
Defense: Basalt, Duo, Death

This list could be debated slightly, but I'm sure that either way we would find that our choices have dwindled as the number of releases have increased. TAKARA-TOMY is backing themselves into a corner.

This discussion leads me to wonder, would the removal of BD145 from the equation allow for greater variety competitively? I ask because, for example, Basalt GB145 is much easier to KO than Basalt BD145 is.
It really sucks I can't use some of my older Metal Wheels anymore. It's a shame. Most (if not ALL) of the parts are outclassed. They just sit there, being completely unused. I don't even attend tourneys, nor have I ever, but what you've said is essentially true Yami.
You CANNOT use old parts to win, really.
You MUST buy new parts frequently to be able to be competitive.
There's a problem with overpowered parts though. They're already released. With that being said, if TAKARA-TOMY starts doing less "over powerful" beys, then what's dominating now, will dominate forever. What's even worse is that you cannot make beys advance forever - there's a fine line between the best, and they're spiraling down to that point quickly. Soon, due to this, MFB will most likely end.
This may look like an idiots post, but it's what I see when I think about it.

You have no idea how I believe that the removal of BD145 from the metagame would help it TREMENDOUSLY.
BD145 has greatly complicated the metagame - and you and I have discussed this in private almost down to the letter in the ways we're phrasing things now, haha - and a big part of me does think a meta without BD145 would be friendlier to everything. After all, Basalt was never the problem - put Basalt on ANY track other than BD145, and it is suddenly not really a threatening presence at all. BD145 can even make Libra and Earth somewhat difficult to stop - and what it's doing with Death and Duo is ringing of true nightmare.

The way things are going, I am terrified at the idea of them somehow one-upping BD145, and honestly? I'd rather MFB just end before that happens.
Hm, even before the release of 4D I had a form of conviction that BD145 should be banned hah ...
BD145 is an amazing part, really. I just got my first one yesterday, and I can already tell why it's such a problem. It is too perfect. It gives an overload of power to every attribute. Hell, I can throw it on a simple Bull, and it can defeat many things. BD145 is a growing problem.
This is debatable though that not every tournament is being won with BD145..
BD145 just changed the Defense metagame into something really ugly, and beyond reproach. If it had never happened, several more MWs would be viable for Attack, even lighter ones.
Definitely. Defense may not appear to be such a bad thing now, with the release of Vari, but even still, if it had not existed, there would be many more widely available wheels to choose from. Even on 230, Basalt would still be a challenge for some wheels, but I can still KO things like that with a simple MF Rock D125RF if I do it right. Not amazing results, but it works. With BD145 on Basalt I can hardly KO MF-H Basalt Aquario BD145CS, with Beat (yes with GB145 Hazel Wink ) and Gravity, left-spin, counter mode. I do need some practice, but BD145 makes/made Basalt a cruel monster that has wrecked the metagame, and it's still in shambles.
The problem is that it does the same thing to almost anything you put it on.

Duo has taken BD145 shenanigans to a whole new level.
Yep. That's what I was getting at, essentially.

Don't remind me about it, haha.
The problem is not BD145. The problem is how people are flocking to use BD145 on every single release that comes out. At first, it was just Stamina and Defense on BD145 then Dan/Bluezee created LLD BD145LRF/RF and then everything was subjected to getting put on BD145 despite the fact that it restricts attack beyblades from making full metal contact with low beys for the most part. My favorite and best combo used to be Scythe Cancer BD145EDS but then the truth kicked in. BD145 always had one main flaw which is exactly why I no longer rely on it. Scraping. All you need is a wheel, Big Bang being the BEST by far to do it, that has really great force smash and BD145 is done. Not once, not twice, but 90% to almost every single time Big Bang 230RF hits a BD145 combo from above, the BD145 scrapes horrible no matter what combo it was.

I think the real problem with the game is that people actually cause the issue. When you avoid doing the same thing over and over and slapping on a few parts on to a metal wheel that has so much more potential, you get better options and you do not see one combo or one type constantly winning tournaments. Basalt with an RF is amazing for attack and completely takes care of all current stamina combo with ease as long especially considering how most stamina wheels have recoil now. No one goes towards this though. They instead use things that conform to a restricted set of ideas and theories. It doesn't make sense to me. A lot of combos that are considered niche are actually the best ones that can completely dominate the competition. All a person has to do is go anti-meta style and make one combo that beats each style or more than one. For example:

Anti Meta Player's Combo List:
Basalt RF (GB145 would be best. R145 doesn't quite give you that last second spin) to beat attack
Meteo CH120/ED145/TR145(i guess)WD/EWD to beat stamina and defense
and a Tornado staller for defense combo and some stamina and even attackers to a degree.

All of this can easily dominate a tournament yet there are no current players that have done this or have chosen to do this based on tournament results. The game could be saved and all of the parts that keep getting so good and be handled by earlier parts that have been underused.

I had the same idea Spin-Sonic! The putting BD145 on every release thing. I haven't discussed it here on the WBO, but many a times with members here via Facebook, and we all had a mutual agreement on this.
Hahah, this is ridiculous : Have you ever thought that everybody was putting BD145 with everything and that it worked because it is a really good part hah ? In tests, you try to fight against typical best types, so it just happens that BD145 is one of the best Defense Tracks, and if people end up using it with non-Defense Metal Wheels, then surely it is better than whatever else they tried. I do not think you can blame people for doing one of the possible combinations in Beyblade and that it works ...
Spin-Sonic, how many tournaments have you won with "anti-meta" combos? I'm not saying this to refute what you're saying; I do acknowledge that anti-meta can work, but if it's as good as you're saying it is, surely you would have won numerous tournaments by now with that style? And as fun as Meteo might be, I don't think it's a smart choice in the current metagame filled with high recoil Wheels (as you mentioned when describing the use of Basalt RF).

Also, Big Bang 230RF–if it works in the way you describe–is situational. A combo with one purpose/method of winning is not that great of a combo. You should know that. It's quite obvious to everyone else that BD145 is the main issue preventing the usage of a lot of different parts/combos. Thinking differently is great, but you can't come out and refute basically the entire forum (and tournament results, for that matter). BD145 is used because it is a completely circular plastic disc that is at least as wide as all Metal Wheels. The ramifications of such a part purely in theory are obvious enough for people to realize. People didn't start using it only because Bluezee/Dan decided to on Lightning L Drago BD145RF.
I just want to say that when Vulcan first came out, I enjoyed the game the most. (Was the Maximum Serioes out at that time? I don't believe so?) I remember combos like Earth 145WD did well, if that gives you a better idea of when I'm talking about.

Back then, I remember there being several substitutes for each Type, as Kei showed. I remember that the combos that were dominant weren't so troublesome to beat. Even a Stamina Metal Wheel, Burn, could do severe damage. Everything seemed to be able to do at least something, and that made each part fun.

Now, these huge weights cause a big weight discrepancy from the past. (62 grams Diablo Nemesis?? What the bad word?) Plus the rapid pace we're getting releases, it's almost a completely different game, not even MFB. If we were to go through every single part, and see which ones suck because of these new heavy parts, how many do you think may be unusable? (Somebody want to count by the way?) It's most likely a ridiculous number, and that just doesn't make sense. It's just a constant change that throws the previous parts in the trash. I really dislike that.

I think the weight is the biggest problem. Basalt and Duo are not as circular as Earth, but destroy Earth in every aspect. How does that even make sense? I don't really know how to explain it well, but it's basically throwing away the past parts of MFB. Maybe this will help understand my point of view: someone's playing ping-pong (MFB past), then after a while another player comes with a tennis-racket sized ping-pong paddle (MFB now), and it's allowed. Just ruins it and doesn't make sense.

Just my 3 cents. I'm not enjoying MFB like I did in say, November 2010? But I haven't been able to keep up because I've been busy and I've been spending too much money to keep up, so it could also be my own fault.
(Dec. 22, 2011  2:03 AM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]Spin-Sonic, how many tournaments have you won with "anti-meta" combos? I'm not saying this to refute what you're saying; I do acknowledge that anti-meta can work, but if it's as good as you're saying it is, surely you would have won numerous tournaments by now with that style?

Also, Big Bang 230RF–if it works in the way you describe–is situational. A combo with one purpose/method of winning is not that great of a combo. People didn't start using it only because Bluezee/Dan decided to on Lightning L Drago BD145RF.

Okay. So to answer your first question, No because I did not have access to those parts at that time seeing as how my collection was very limited. Now that I do have these parts and practice these concepts down to the letter and even have a training partner at times that does this extremely well, I know how they work and exactly what they are capable of. With that being said, there would have been no way for me to win tournaments with that because they were not yet an option for me.

Secondly, Big Bang 230RF is a niche combo, but it works well vs BD145 combinations and just as you said: BD145 is a great part, which just makes BBP's range larger. BD145 combos are heavily used in today's competitive scene along with TH170 combos. That makes BBP a lot more useful because the force smash can come into play a lot easier.

Also, the combination Bluezee and Dan made didn't independently make BD cool, but allowed for a larger spectrum which people are now misusing or at least forgetting other tracks (which means less variation.)
I know for a fact this is true and on top of that, I also know people do not necessarily try everything else first and then if all else fails, go to BD145. They go straight for BD145 automatically assuming it will work and when it does, they settle rather than going for what could be even better or a forgotten or underused track.
Not trying to side here, but I used MF-H Basalt Horogium R145RF to great success in STAGE FRIGHT! When Kaji Motomiya used his MF Lightning L Drago BD145RF (understandably not the best, but still a decent attack type. This was pre-Death release and usage), I swamped it with that combo. I can honestly say that it is a successful method in tournaments.

Speaking of Big Bang, I find that Barrage provides a lot more Defense while slightly hindering its meager Smash. The Force Smash is completely left as is, so I think Barrage is the best mode for Big Bang in situations where it is used in Force Smash due to the added Defense provided as well.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11