There is a problem with our metagame.

I have been in a lot of competitive gaming communities in my day, including our very own WBO. I've attended and hosted numerous video game tournaments (primarily Super Smash Bros. Brawl), and from this experience I have a pretty good idea of what makes for a healthy competitive metagame. With all this under my belt, and having studied the current WBO ruleset for several weeks, I feel I can safely say:

The current ruleset does not cater to a truly competitive metagame as well as it could.

The current ruleset has worked for many years, and TOs across the globe have held successful tournaments using it; still, there is always room for improvement, and I believe I have identified two specific areas that could be improved upon.

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My Experimental Ruleset

I've put together a ruleset that borrows from other competitive communities while still trying to stay as close to the current ruleset as possible. There is still a factor of guessing, but I believe this ruleset would make skill and custom knowledge significantly more important.

I did not include every minor detail of a full ruleset (stuff like penalty cases) to keep this concise. This only covers changes to how a Beybattle works during a tournament.

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BeyBattle

How To Win
A BeyBattle consists of rounds. Rounds are themselves broken into battles. To win a round, you must win three battles. To win the entire BeyBattle, you must win two rounds.

For finals matches, the first player to win three rounds wins the Beybattle.

*NOTE: If time is a concern, a tournament organizer can choose to only require a blader to win one round to win a Beybattle instead of two.

Beyblade Selection
At the start of each Beybattle, both bladers select up to three Beyblades they might use during the match. These three Beyblades are always chosen double-blind. (Note that because one is not allowed to disassemble one's Beyblades during a Beybattle, if a blader chooses to use more than one Beyblade, none of those Beyblades may share parts)

*NOTE: The crossed-out section is currently flexible; the TO may allow a blader to use parts in more than one of their three customs if they want.

Presentation
Before the first round begins, both players must present all of the customs they chose to the opponent. During the presentation, a blader must tell his opponent what each custom is if the opponent asks. If either blader is worried about the legality of the opponent's Beyblade (for reasons like if the opponent is using fake parts, or if the opponent's parts are excessively worn), that player may call a judge who will take appropriate action.

Round Play and Beyblade Selection
At the start of each round, each blader chooses one Beyblade from the Beyblades chosen at the start of the Beybattle to be used during that round. This choice is always double-blind.

The two bladers then battle using the chosen Beyblades until one blader wins three battles. Once a round is over, each blader may choose a different Beyblade from those they chose at the start of the Beybattle for use during the next round. (NOTE: This is optional; if there is more than one round, you are allowed to use the same Bey if you don't want to switch, you just have the option to change if you want to) This choice is always double-blind.

The first player to win two rounds wins the Beybattle.

Let's go over the highlights:

First is the change in the overall number of battles during a Beybattle. Currently, I feel that only playing against an opponent once is too little due to the possibility of choosing an inappropriate custom. Under the experimental system, if you end up guessing horribly wrong for round one, while you'll still be behind you're not completely screwed since you could choose more wisely and win rounds two and three. Having more rounds is also more time to show off your actual skill.

Next is presentation. With this system, you select a "team" of Beyblades that you will battle with, and you show your entire "team" to your opponent before the match starts. This gives you the opportunity to see what your opponent might use and base your decision on that. The system still maintains a level of surprising your foe since you choose a Beyblade at the start of each round, but it makes the actual choosing that round's Beyblade more skill- and knowledge-intensive than the current system. The way I see it, I feel we should be rewarding the players who can recognize what types of Beyblades the opponent might use and who can plan accordingly more than the player who fakes attaching his Beyblade to his launcher.

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Closing Remarks

This ruleset is an experimental one and is very much not official. If you like the idea, consider trying it out at an event and let me (and everyone else) know how it goes! If anyone has any comments or critique, I'd love to hear it!

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4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

Moved into WBO General, where this discussion would fit better.

Hmmm,I wouldn't certainly like to try it out.
But I had a quite simple suggestion for the selection part-before the match starts,both the bladers write down the combo which they're going to use secretly,and give it to the judge.
I haven't been able to understand this completely,but,there are some parts-
a newbie may not even have 3 beys to present.
I personally like the idea of the final rounds-first to win 3 matches wins-but this can take a long time if there are ties.

I whole heartedly agree about the meta-game being luck based instead of skill based. Bladers should know what their opponents are using.

zeneo, up to 3 beyblades.

I actually agree with the whole concept.
I find that even though I know the Metagame, it comes down to my choice in a rock paper scissors match.
I think that we need to have an experimental tournament trying this out.

Regarding this rule: (Note that because one is not allowed to disassemble one's Beyblades during a Beybattle, if a blader chooses to use more than one Beyblade, none of those Beyblades may share parts):

I don't see how that applies... In addition, that rule makes commonly used parts useless. W145, BD145, RF, R2F, LRF, CH120, EWD, WD, S130, Metal Faces, MF, etc.

The WBBA rules state only the metal wheels are to be unique to the 3 customs. I feel that we can agree upon that. But... consider Syncrhomes... IMO, we should be allowed to have 3 variants of Phantoms, 3 Different Attack Types, etc.

Just my 2 cents, great work Ingy!

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First of all, I agree on the bigger picture that you pointed out:

1. Secrecy
2. The Rock / Paper / Scissor aspect

Now, 'luck' is of course there. But it's also not as clear cut as you make it out to be. If you're playing in your local meta, you will have the advantage of observing and learning the common combos and your opponents' habits. Assuming a player utilizes this well, and have access to parts needed to counter the opponents, he/she will become quite successful. It is so much more than just luck.

Personally, the sentence below is completely untrue, and I among other players here would take offense in it, knowing that we earn our BeyPoints fair and square and through MANY trials and defeats in the process.

Thus, with the current ruleset, having a high Beyrank under the current ELO-based system is more of an indicator of luck than skill.

The only viable circumstance where luck is plays a greater role is where you travel outside of your own meta into a completely new foreign meta, where coming in, you know nothing about the habits and combos common to that meta. Even then, it can be remedied by reading lots of posts and habits of the people who's part of that meta.

So in that aspect alone, I disagree.

On the other subject; secrecy. We can generally assume that stamina>defense>attack (Rock/Paper/Scissor), although nowadays, even that theory is not as black and white as it used to be. We have all types of Balance, hybrids, etc.

But, for the benefit of a doubt, let's just assume that the condition still holds true. What is the problem with secrecy? Going back to basic, to win the rock/paper/scissor game, you don't really tell your opponent what you're gonna show (rock or paper or scissor), unless you're a 2-3 year old child.

Having said all that, I fully support that posting in the Winning Combos thread should probably be a requirement. On the flip side, it's also completely understandable if a winner does not want to post his/her combo. It's fully within their right.

I think what Ingulit's trying to say is that all those times you won, you're lucky your opponent wasn't using "x" combo that counters your own combo greatly.

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Thanks for the sig, Tri.

BURST ACCOUNT

I think what Ingulit's trying to say is that all those times you won, you're lucky your opponent wasn't using "x" combo that counters your own combo greatly.

Like I said...

....If you're playing in your local meta, you will have the advantage of observing and learning the common combos and your opponents' habits. Assuming a player utilizes this well, and have access to parts needed to counter the opponents, he/she will become quite successful. It is so much more than just luck.

I don't think a bit of research and making a decision based on that is called 'lucky'.

hmm.. if you are skilled enough you can beat a defense type using a attack type, and as for beating a stamina type with defense type, Gattyaki is very effective, and it needs skill, so luck is not everything.

@ Uwik

It comes down to the final seconds before the stalling clause is over. Were you ever 100% sure of what your opponent's bey would be? I think it's safe to say that you never have been (unless you're against a newbie who only has Big Bang Pegasis). You always hope you've made the right choice, correct? In that sense, luck plays a huge role in determining if you win or lose.

@ ashton pinto

Yes, but the largest factor affecting the outcome is luck.

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||Avatar is a gift not my own work||
||DeviantArt||

@ Uwik

It comes down to the final seconds before the stalling clause is over. Were you ever 100% sure of what your opponent's bey would be? I think it's safe to say that you never have been (unless you're against a newbie who only has Big Bang Pegasis). You always hope you've made the right choice, correct? In that sense, luck plays a huge role in determining if you win or lose.

@ ashton pinto

Yes, but the largest factor affecting the outcome is luck.

its luck, because there is no skill.... and people dont have faith in themselves they only beleive in top tier combos.

I see what you mean, but, all the skill in the world won't help you if you have Duo BD145 RDF, and you are against Duo Cygnus W145 EWD... Luck plays a larger and more direct role. Skill comes into play when you have a match up like Duo Cygnus 230 MB vs Duo Cygnus 230 MB, but it also goes with, "I was lucky to have this match up" So in almost all cases, luck plays such a huge role it's not a metagame anymore, it's just a game of luck.

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||Avatar is a gift not my own work||
||DeviantArt||

Easy on the luck vs skill posts guys. We have a different thread for that already. This is just a thread proposing improvements on the current rule.

Kujikato: No, not really. As a host, I do not have the luxury to 'wing it' as the tournament day progresses, and call stalling clause every time. There are always things to attend to, matches to judge, etc. I do a fair bit of research before hand. I make a safe assumption of who will most likely to attend, what they will likely use, and what parts they own, and their type tendencies. Yes, it's not a 100% fool proof. There are miscalls now and then. But what I meant to say is that generally, a good player is a prepared player, not a lucky player.

The majority of players do not even bother testing their combos themselves. They read the forum and they just assume it works for them as well. I do a lot of testings myself against combos that are 'popular' in the forum and combos localized in my meta, and I know what will work and what will not. It's definitely not spur of the moment in the final seconds of the stalling clause.

Ingulit, the problem that lies with the current BeyPoints is not so much because of the luck / secrecy. The problem is geographical. A prominent player plays bimonthly tourneys versing the bare minimum of 7 same opponents each time, and raking up as many BeyPoints as many as possible due to the more rounds presented in the RR, as opposed to DE. It's called the 'Island Scenario', a problem that plagued the BeyPoints system in the past and will be fixed in the upcoming update.

As for improving the local meta, when a local community has a person willing to buy updated beys in bulk and sell/distribute them within their community, only then the local meta will improve. It's very much dependent on part availability. Although, now with no new releases coming up, the overall global meta will eventually be in sync anyway.

Understand that I was not trying to attack anyone who has a high Beyrank or claim that they did not earn it due to skill. Rather, I was looking at it from the perspective of someone who DID earn a high Beyrank, someone who would have a lot to lose:

Imagine you have tediously worked on your Beyrank for months, slowly growing it and learning your meta. One day you go to a tournament where you are the only blader that has a positive rank, meaning even a single loss would cause your Beyrank to plummet. You know the bladers, though, so you're fairly confident, but unfortunately the majority of the bladers all decided to switch their usual customs at the last minute. Because you do not have any idea what they might pick and because there is only one round, you end up picking the wrong Beyblades and your Beyrank suddenly nosedives. This happens due to pure bad luck rather than a lack of skill, and that goes against the whole concept behind the ELO ranking system.

Travelling to tournaments outside your meta is also incredibly dangerous Beyrank-wise since you don't know what the bladers might pick, and we should be encouraging people who can travel to attend more tournaments rather than make them worry about their Beyrank. That is where the presentation bit comes in: if that was a rule, one can travel to an unknown meta and play against an unknown blader and still make an informed decision on what to pick each round.

As far as the three Beyblades have to have their own parts thing: that was just a by-product of me wanting to maintain the current rule that you can't take apart your Beyblades during a Beybattle, though that could be changed if enough people think it's a problem.

When it comes to the double blind pick thing, you don't have to have a judge to do a double blind, just a third party. The only time a judge would have to get involved is if someone was concerned about part/custom legality during presentation.

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4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

A major thing with this ruleset is the issue of time. Possibly only play one round? I like this ruleset's idea but the issue of time however would turn me off to actually hosting an event using it if it was to come into being.(I'm aware I'm not a tournament organizer as of now but I'm working into it.)

A major thing with this ruleset is the issue of time. Possibly only play one round? I like this ruleset's idea but the issue of time however would turn me off to actually hosting an event using it if it was to come into being.(I'm aware I'm not a tournament organizer as of now but I'm working into it.)

I actually think this would be okay once people got used to it. I would say tournaments are criminally short currently, but I'm very biased since I've been a part of video game tournaments where all-day events are the norm, haha!

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4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

A major thing with this ruleset is the issue of time. Possibly only play one round? I like this ruleset's idea but the issue of time however would turn me off to actually hosting an event using it if it was to come into being.(I'm aware I'm not a tournament organizer as of now but I'm working into it.)

I actually think this would be okay once people got used to it. I would say tournaments are criminally short currently, but I'm very biased since I've been a part of video game tournaments where all-day events are the norm, haha!

I play CCGs. I know what that's like hahaha. Beyblade's speed is refreshing haha. However you also need to look at the age of a majority of participants. The parents of most kids aren't going to stay for an all day long event unless the amount of entrants is on level with Anime North.

That's a valid point, and to save time one could use this ruleset but there only be one round instead of having to win two. You'd still pick up to three Beyblades, you'd still do the presentation, but there'd only be a single round. I'd personally prefer there to be more rounds, but there being multiple rounds is less important than the other stuff, so if time was a big issue one could do single rounds. I'll add that to the OP.

EDIT: OP updated

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4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

I just want to say that I completely agree with what Uwik has posted. You are denigrating people's wins when in fact it is not at all luck-based that much, and I can definitely say that the worst issues in the current system is really just the Island scenario, as Uwik mentioned.

What you are suggesting, Ingulit, is exactly what the WBBA does in Asia, and I believe that it makes luck come much more into play than what has always been preferred since Off the Chain.

I just want to say that I completely agree with what Uwik has posted. You are denigrating people's wins when in fact it is not at all luck-based that much, and I can definitely say that the worst issues in the current system is really just the Island scenario, as Uwik mentioned.

What you are suggesting, Ingulit, is exactly what the WBBA does in Asia, and I believe that it makes luck come much more into play than what has always been preferred since Off the Chain.

Let me start by saying I shouldn't have mentioned Beypoints. I wasn't in any way trying to denigrate anybody's wins, and I apologize for even mentioning the Beyrank system. I went ahead and removed that section from the OP.

This is actually quite different from Asia's deck system. In the deck system (as I understand it), both bladers choose three Beyblades they want to use, and then each Blader chooses one of the three AT RANDOM. I would agree that the deck system is considerably more luck-based than the WBO's ruleset.

The system I'm proposing is similar to the deck system in that each blader chooses up to three Beyblades, but differs in one key aspect: for each round, each blader CHOOSES a Beyblade from their three rather than being chosen at random.

How is this different? Because of the Presentation step. When you get a chance to see your opponent's Beyblades, if you have the knowledge to be able to tell what type each of their Beyblades is, then you can make an informed decision as to which one of your three to pick.

For example, say you see the opponent has two defenders and a stamina type, and you have a defender, an attacker, and a stamina type of your own. You probably don't want to use your defender since they don't have anything that will likely knock it out, and choosing your attacker is risky since they have two defenders. Thus, you might want to pick your stamina type. This kind of decision making is very knowledge-intensive since you have to be able to recognize what type each of your opponent's Beyblades are, and thus brings in a greater knowledge component without having to fake attaching your Beyblade to your launcher so that your opponent is tricked into choosing their Beyblade first.

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4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

IMO, beyblade is luck for those who can't use agressive types. For example, if I am using Duo W145 WD, I am betting my opponent will use defense or an inferior stamina type. But if I walk into a tourney with Flash W145 R2F, I can win against anything I face if I have enough skill, since the best attacker beats the best defender. So, IMO, beyblade requires as much skill as the users let it have.

Sorry if this is confusing, I'm in a rush.

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Like B-Daman! Go here!

The best attacker doesn't always beat the best defensive combos however. Back in the pre
Vari, Post-Balsalt era attack for the most part was nearly nonexsistent. Correct me if I'm wrong seeing as I didn't play in that era much.

Well yes, but that's not what we're talking about, we're talking about the present. I think this is a good idea, though tournaments would be much longer.

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“In the course of twenty crowded years, one parts with many illusions. I did not wish to lose the early ones. Some memories are realities, and are better than anything that can ever happen again.” -Jim Burden (My Ántonia)

It isn't really fair to tell people they have to use attack types if they want to show their skill. Attack is only one of four types of custom, and not everyone likes to use attackers.

That's why I made this ruleset, so that people can prove their skill by displaying their knowledge of all types and picking customs in a more educated manner. If you see your opponent's Beyblades during presentation and still want to just use attack types because you're really good with them, by all means, go for it!


EDIT: As far as the length of tournaments is concerned, if a TO wants to host a tournament that lasts the same length as old tournaments they can make it so you only have to win one round. The multiple round thing is only if the TO wants to do that, and they should make it clear ahead of time that that is what they plan to do during the event. That way people will know the tournament will last longer than usual.

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4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

You can't say wins are luck-based,based on your experience at tournaments-there are many communities world over-the Mumbai community always believes in sharing ideas,combos,helping,and,most of our winners are highly skilled in launching,and truly understand the meta.So,if you say to the entire community,there's secrecy,and wins are all about luck,without knowing the community as a whole,you're directly disrespecting the hard-work of members you haven't even battled!

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You can't say wins are luck-based,based on your experience at tournaments-there are many communities world over-the Mumbai community always believes in sharing ideas,combos,helping,and,most of our winners are highly skilled in launching,and truly understand the meta.So,if you say to the entire community,there's secrecy,and wins are all about luck,without knowing the community as a whole,you're directly disrespecting the hard-work of members you haven't even battled!

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Back then,when I started playing,I had no clue how competitive the entire environment was,when I came to my 1st tournament-got knocked out in the round-robin block format,without a win...
After my neighbour,and close friend,Sharven12 got a BB-10,I started to improve.I spent more time around the stadium,tried launching skills,tried to invent new ones-learned tornado stalling for Phantom Orion 90 MF.There it is,the more the time is spent with the stadium,I believe,the more improved you become.

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Back then,when I started playing,I had no clue how competitive the entire environment was,when I came to my 1st tournament-got knocked out in the round-robin block format,without a win...
After my neighbour,and close friend,Sharven12 got a BB-10,I started to improve.I spent more time around the stadium,tried launching skills,tried to invent new ones-learned tornado stalling for Phantom Orion 90 MF.There it is,the more the time is spent with the stadium,I believe,the more improved you become.