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+--- Thread: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. (/Thread-Testing-Attack-Types-The-Factors-and-Home-vs-Tournaments)
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Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Priscient - May. 17, 2012
Some of you could say that majority of the content in this thread should be obvious, however it's still something that still need to be said:
There are many factors in beyblade which could affect a win or a loss. Regardless if we're using a Defence, Stamina, Attack, or Balance combinations there are also going to be Factors/Variables which are out of our control. However, are we being too lenient on how the testing of attack types are being dealt with?
First, when testing the standard method is that we're supposed to launch stamina/defence types first, then attack types second. This is due to the fact that Attack types loose a lot of their movement power quickly. But, is it fair to say that Attack types are to always go second? When one is testing at home, it is much easier to hit/or get a good shot on a slow moving stamina/defence combination compared to a fast moving attack type. But, when the stamina type/defence type is launched first it's very easy to get almost a completely perfect launch for a clean first hit to knockout the opposing beyblade. This may lead to "skewed" test results, as in a tournament situation both beyblades are being launched at the same time, and the attack type blader will not know where the opposing beyblade will land. This is a huge dis-advantage compared to when testing at home, as then you can't get off that clean "100%" K-O Ratio all the time. Unfortunately, I can't think of a solution for this problem other than testing with two both experienced bladers, rather than just one person. The problem with this method however is that this will definitely cause a decline in testing as unfortunately not everybody is near an active WBO community such as Toronto, New York, or Italy.
The second Factor is stress. Stress is a huge variable that unfortunately has no answer whatsoever, and affects all types, but especially Attack. When one is testing at home, there is no stress factor at all. You're calling your own "3-2-1, Go Shoot!", and no thoughts such as "What if the other blader launches this way? But then again, what if he launches that direction? How should I launch to counteract this? What has the highest chance I can get a hit in?" The list goes on. Stress factor in a tournament situation also can cause people to have arms that shake, or to not have a steady aim. While again, this affects all types, this especially affects attack types. This is because if a stamina blader has a not steady launch, it probably won't affect the beybattle too much, if at all. But, when using an attack type, a small little twitch can be the difference between pulling off a successful bank, or Tornado Stalling which can very much change the entire outcome. Weather can also be a factor/variable towards having a steady aim such as launching on a freezing winter day. (Canadian bladers know what this feels like!) The lack of stress can also "skew" results as compared to a tournament.
The final Factor is the testing itself, this factor is the reason which motivated me to make this thread in the first place, which I then built on. What I mean by the testing itself is how if the blader "screws up" their launch with an attack type. If you launch yourself out of a stadium in home while testing/practicing, that's perfectly fine; just try again! In a tournament situation? Absolutely not. In tournaments, that one point which you just forfeited is easily the difference between a win or a loss, and a win or a loss can definitely decide whether you make the cut for the Semi-Finals or not. This also applies to when you attempt to Bank/Sliding shoot, but a Tornado stall comes out. I know that matches are re-done just because an attack type couldn't get an actual hit in. Through a tournament? Nope. If you screw up that launch, you basically forfeited that point as well. Therefore, I suggest that there are to be a maximum of THREE re-launches due to a faulty launch for Attack Types, or else that is also "skewing results" as compared to a tournament. If one can't launch 17/20 matches perfectly even with the assistance of the stamina/Defence type being launched first, that person, in my opinion should not be allowed to do attack testing.
Remember, that 90% Win rate at home, could easily become a 60% at tournaments because of some of these factors!
Note: The reason why I put in so much emphasis on tournaments, is because the main points of the WBO are to encourage organized sanctioned play, Beywiki, and the discussion of beyblade.
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Shabalabadoo - May. 18, 2012
Ah, I love this! Refreshing to see a thread like this again.
On the first point: The problem with Launching the Attack type second, and I've actually thought the same thing as you and tried it, is that the Attack Beyblade also uses the other Beyblade to keep a sliding shoot pattern that it wouldn't otherwise have. Also, when I launch the Attack Beyblade first, it's difficult to Launch the second Beyblade in a way that isn't to purposely avoid the Attack Beyblade's momentum. If somebody is getting that first hit KO, they should look into how they're launching both Beyblades, and find the best way to launch while still getting accurate results. That's what I do, it's not Launching more poorly, it's just mimicking a Tournament more.
As always though, different metagames affect results. So what is the most accurate metagame? Well, there isn't one, which is why we test how we do because it's to show what it would be like in a perfect world. (Which brings me to the third point, and kinda the second)
I love the idea behind the three relaunch rule, but like I said, we should find out how well parts do if there was no error, so you can factor in your own faults and not someone else's that may not make the same mistake as you. It's kinda like rounding numbers. Say you go through several equations, if each answer has a rounded number, the end result will be less accurate than if there was no rounding and everything during the equations were spot on.
Of course, everyone should do their own testing and not only look at the results, but also at how confident they are in their skills, take into account their metagame, and base their decisions solely on what they have found, not on other person's testings.
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Hero II - May. 20, 2012
I totally agree on this thread, I have my MF-H Duo Aquario BD145RDF and at home it rocks and destroys every one of my top-tier attack(except Flash) and defense combos but, when I battle my friends, it gets destroyed by their custom Duo defense combos. Your first point in your post needs a lot more discussion but it can skew results completely, I agree 100%. It could be better use two people for testing but then again another person won't always be present. :\
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Pcyborg - May. 21, 2012
Self testing is never a good benchmark, especially for attack types. It goes beyond the usual launch mechanics. Unfortunately, most people could only do that =(
From what I have experienced, its not simply the "perfect launch" but timing as well. The one which lands first usually would have the advantage since there is enough acceleration build up which is what drives the attack types perform the intended KOs. The only way to actually perfect this is to continuously play with many different people over an extended time span... But thats just not possible I suppose..
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - obliviondoll - May. 21, 2012
(May. 17, 2012 10:11 PM)Pockyx3 Wrote: I suggest that there are to be a maximum of THREE re-launches due to a faulty launch for Attack Types, or else that is also "skewing results" as compared to a tournament. If one can't launch 17/20 matches perfectly even with the assistance of the stamina/Defence type being launched first, that person, in my opinion should not be allowed to do attack testing.
When I first read this part, I thought it sounded harsh, and was ready to get all defensive...
But then I realised it's a legitimate point.
If you can't nail your launches with ANY type of Bey (Attack obviously being the most likely type to fail on launch), you shouldn't be using that type competitively.
And leading from that, if you can't use the Bey competitively, how can you consider yourself a reliable tester for it?
Obviously, this is most likely to apply to Attack types, but I think it's potentially valid to consider for ALL testing.
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Uwik - May. 22, 2012
Just a little nudge to make sure this thread gets proper exposure. It is a great thread with valid points.
Personally, I think that to get the most accurate result from single person testing is to count EVERY self KOs, bad launches, etc. I've been encouraging people to do it for a while. It should not be limited to just attack type, it should apply to all types.
So yes, maybe even 3 relaunches are enough to skew the result. In a tournament environment, we get 0 relaunch.
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Arupaeo - May. 22, 2012
Nice thread Pocky!
I always include self-KOs in my testing results. It always seemed dishonest to do otherwise.
Also, I launch attack types in the same spot in the stadium for testing, regardless of where the defense/stamina bey is. That way I'm not skewing the results by sniping all the time...
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Relic - May. 22, 2012
I agree with this thread that tournament atmosphere is completely different.
But I agree with this too :
(May. 21, 2012 9:36 PM)obliviondoll Wrote: If you can't nail your launches with ANY type of Bey (Attack obviously being the most likely type to fail on launch), you shouldn't be using that type competitively.
He has a point here. Most people who think they can't control/not confident of using Attack types don't really opt for it anyway.
And believe me, if you have enough practice with them, you can nail it even at a tournament. Personally, I use only Attack types at tournaments, and I do pretty okay. And yes, I do count Self-KOs while testing.
But while testing, we're doing it to see how good that particular part is and what potential it has. Tournament rules shouldn't really be induced into testing. If they are, then we should be testing with another person to make it like more of a "tournament atmosphere".
Maybe after you test a part properly (Without taking mislaunches into consideration), you could do a separate test involving tournament rules.
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Justaway - May. 22, 2012
My problem is highlighted in this thread. It happens almost everytime that I suck at a tournament because of mislaunches or self-KOs. My famous case of Vari losing to Earth is a proof for it. Of course, when testing at home, I get close to 100% against Earth with the exact same combo.
The other day I was testing Flash against Basalt GB145 CS with my friend and I got 0% with Flash whereas in individual tests I get 50-60%(counting mislaunches). Yes, I do suck with attackers but I certainly agree that single player testing is quite inaccurate.
Again there are way too many variables when using attackers: Condition of tips, of MWs, angle of launch, method of launching, point of contact and most importantly, wall saves. Using attackers gets quite annoying if you can't be comfortable using them. Its been almost a year now since I started using attackers and even now, I suck at it. Legend Relic knows about it, because I keep pestering him to get solutions to my problems with attackers almost every single day. XD
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Kei - May. 24, 2012
The unfortunate reality is that there is nothing we can do to ever create a system whereby tournament conditions are accurately replicated; even testing with another experienced Blader would not be good enough because the context and mindset of both Bladers is entirely different than that of a tournament situation where they know they have no second chance and are battling to win a tournament.
The only thing we can determine is the potential of any given Wheel, combination, or part. For example, if X Wheel gets 100% against something in individual testing, obviously this is a good thing. It might not necessarily be an accurate representation of it's strength, but it gives us an idea of it's potential. And if this is the case, what becomes the meaning behind testing? Some people might think that the meaning of testing is to determine the "best" parts or the "best" of two combinations. This is impossible, though. To me, I've realized that more importantly, it is to determine what you would be most comfortable with and what would be most advantageous in a tournament situation, percentages be damned.
I pick which parts to use based on my own experience and feeling with them, not based on how high of a win percentage it is getting within the community. High win percentages are a good indicator of potential, but you also have to consider all of the factors Pockyx3 has listed here in this thread, which will more than likely lower that percentage in a tournament situation.
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Hero II - May. 24, 2012
All we have to do is upgrade the testing data by making detailed bio's on how the battles played out, I don't think it's that hard to do.
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Hazel - May. 24, 2012
(May. 24, 2012 8:49 PM)Ignition Wrote: All we have to do is upgrade the testing data by making detailed bio's on how the battles played out, I don't think it's that hard to do.
Tournaments are just a completely different reality, and you're not going to really draw an accurate portrait of "battle data" after, or even during the fact. Far too much is going on in both home and tournament play, and the things going on are heavily influenced largely by factors beyond reasonable levels of our control.
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Priscient - May. 24, 2012
Oh geez, I didn't read this thread for a while.
Yeah, the main point which I am trying to get at here (which it seems that all of you understand) is the fact that there are just too many variables that are uncontrollable. I especially like this line regarding tournaments:
(May. 24, 2012 8:45 PM)Kei Wrote: High win percentages are a good indicator of potential, but you also have to consider all of the factors that are listed here in this thread, which will more than likely lower that percentage in a tournament situation.
Potential is really a key word here, as person A may get 100%, but that doesn't mean that everybody else will. An example of this is that I personally like Phantom more than Duo, and I seem to get more wins with Phantom in tournaments. Yes, Duo is obviously the safer choice as it has equal Stamina properties, but higher defensive properties. So why do I pick Phantom? It's because I'm more comfortable/confident in launching Phantom than Duo.
So, would the committee think about adding this to standard testing procedures? I would say to not discourage attack testing, the best way to go about this is to ask members to include the amount of Self-KO's.
(May. 22, 2012 5:10 PM)Relic Wrote: Maybe after you test a part properly (Without taking mislaunches into consideration), you could do a separate test involving tournament rules.
While this is a good suggestion, the only problem with this is that Tournament rules are definitely not the only thing skewing results.
I noticed that when I'm playing against little kids in tournaments (not to say they're bad) I generally launch better/cleaner, as I'm more confident than if I'm playing against Kei or Flamedragon25, when I know they're good bladers with considerable amounts of skill.
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - th!nk - Jun. 13, 2012
(May. 24, 2012 8:45 PM)Kei Wrote: The unfortunate reality is that there is nothing we can do to ever create a system whereby tournament conditions are accurately replicated; even testing with another experienced Blader would not be good enough because the context and mindset of both Bladers is entirely different than that of a tournament situation where they know they have no second chance and are battling to win a tournament.
The only thing we can determine is the potential of any given Wheel, combination, or part. For example, if X Wheel gets 100% against something in individual testing, obviously this is a good thing. It might not necessarily be an accurate representation of it's strength, but it gives us an idea of it's potential. And if this is the case, what becomes the meaning behind testing? Some people might think that the meaning of testing is to determine the "best" parts or the "best" of two combinations. This is impossible, though. To me, I've realized that more importantly, it is to determine what you would be most comfortable with and what would be most advantageous in a tournament situation, percentages be damned.
I pick which parts to use based on my own experience and feeling with them, not based on how high of a win percentage it is getting within the community. High win percentages are a good indicator of potential, but you also have to consider all of the factors Pockyx3 has listed here in this thread, which will more than likely lower that percentage in a tournament situation.
Excellent post, doesn't leave me much to add, but I'll throw in my 2c:
Because of the variation in skill, we should be looking to get measures of potential, and then adjusting them to our own abilities - and providing only three self KO's means that the testers ability with attack type control also comes into the equation, another variable - something we should be aiming to minimise.
If you plan to use a combination at a tournament, you SHOULD be testing it yourself first, to make sure you are comfortable with it, if you don't have a BB-10, then all good tournaments should have some warmup time where you can try stuff like that out before the tourney (and those with BB-10's of their own should help ensure that those without that privilege get priority access to the warmup stadiums). Heck, IMO access to a BB-10 before the tournament for practice (and perhaps even making sure everyone who is there on time gets at least one warmup match) should be compulsory.
As for the factor of differing controllability between different wheels, there is a simple solution: Testing Notes. I include all of my relevant observations in all testing results I post, and so should everyone else. If a wheel is harder than normal to control, then write it down clearly and make sure people understand. If you had 40 self-KO's, but managed to get a perfect 20 wins via KO in the rounds you post, you darned well better post the 40 self KO's, and if anyone takes a shot at you for being "unskilled" or whatever, I don't know about the staff but heck, you can shoot me a PM, because people shouldn't be elitist snobs about that kind of thing - that only results in positive skewed results.
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Kujikato - Dec. 26, 2012
I know this is an old thread, but here is what I find on the topic
I love attack types, but I usually stray from them in tournaments. I am very confident in them for testing and free play, but I still lack confidence in tournament setups.
Now, there is a whole realm of things that could happen, and I must say, we have to consider this. IMO, have a video of at least 3 rounds with the attack type, to validate your ability in Attack Types, and honestly, Attack types should be tested with two people. I mean, is your 8+ year old brother too weak to launch something like Killerken Revizer (or vice versa) BD145 RDF? Nadda.
Just my 2 cents, and pretty much confirms the OP
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - ShinobuXD - Dec. 26, 2012
I like that idea a lot. In my opinion, we should make users do a three to five round video, using an attack type, instead of a benchmark. It is much easier, and no one would have to do twenty rounds of benchmarking, thus prolonging the life a little more of their attack wheels.
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - [)ragon - Jan. 12, 2014
I know I'm necroing this thread, but I think it raises several very, very important points that we should all acknowledge. This is definitely a fundamental subject that we should all make an effort to educate ourselves about, as it outlines the differences between reality and formal testing when dealing with Attack type Beyblades.
Attack testing is mostly used to compare the performances of different wheels under identical conditions, not necessarily to determine the ability of a part in an actual tournament scenario. You aren't gonna go to a tournament and hit 80% with Wyvang against a Revizer defender. It just doesn't work like that.
Kudos to Pockyx3 for writing this once upon a time. It deals with very fundamental points that are ultimately essential for any blader's knowledge.
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - East - Jan. 12, 2014
(Jan. 12, 2014 3:43 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: I know I'm necroing this thread, but I think it raises several very, very important points that we should all acknowledge. This is definitely a fundamental subject that we should all make an effort to educate ourselves about, as it outlines the differences between reality and formal testing when dealing with Attack type Beyblades.
Attack testing is mostly used to compare the performances of different wheels under identical conditions, not necessarily to determine the ability of a part in an actual tournament scenario. You aren't gonna go to a tournament and hit 80% with Wyvang against a Revizer defender. It just doesn't work like that.
Great job on necroing this TBD. One of my favorite threads here. However, I do have to disagree with your statement on hitting 80% with an attacker on a defender in a tournament. It actually does happen and it can if the person is a skilled attack blader. Yes, there are some variables that cannot be tested at home so you raise a valid point but I can assure you these things are not out of the ordinary at all. When you come prepared and have polished your skill set, combos and strategies you have before hand or rather before a tournament, do you not expect to do as well as you expect just because a counter(s) to your combos or style is running around? I think that's counter productive if so. I just would like a more detailed view from you because I know you're pretty nice with attack as well and I think it's cool that we have differing views.
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Kaneki - Jan. 12, 2014
I agree with TBD. If you're facing a top-tier Defense combo. It is gonna be very hard to hit. Even with a top-tier Attack combo. It can be hard. I have my testing to back this up. Though, if you're facing a not so strong Defense combo, you can hit high numbers. This seems very intresting. I can't believe I never found this. Also East, you should try look at things. Even if your skilled, it doesn't mean your gonna win against every Defense combo.
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Snoop Dog MS - Jan. 12, 2014
Erm might be me but... I agree with East. In Michigan, I have seen Attackers WRECK Defense all around. But I am bias so :\
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Coach - Jan. 12, 2014
(Jan. 12, 2014 3:04 PM)East Wrote: However, I do have to disagree with your statement on hitting 80% with an attacker on a defender in a tournament. It actually does happen and it can if the person is a skilled attack blader. Yes, there are some variables that cannot be tested at home so you raise a valid point but I can assure you these things are not out of the ordinary at all. When you come prepared and have polished your skill set, combos and strategies you have before hand or rather before a tournament, do you not expect to do as well as you expect just because a counter(s) to your combos or style is running around? I think that's counter productive if so. I just would like a more detailed view from you because I know you're pretty nice with attack as well and I think it's cool that we have differing views.
East has it right, I've gone into tournaments where I was polished and practicing attack up to it and had great success, seeing that my only two tournament wins happened on the same weekend when I was ready. And then there have been times when I wasn't practiced up on it and went to attack and was horrible.
Attack is a skill you must practice, even still I see people testing (one test inparticular) that makes me say all credibility is gone from this person says they got 95% with Flash vs Killerken Revizer in 100 rounds which is beyond being remotely believable... Nope Attacks will never be an overpowering percentage >75% in tournament rounds because you have to adjust to your opponent. But if you polish your skills and get a strong slide shoot as well as know when to target and beat stallers by stalling yourself and running them down. You also have to be able to control your SKOs. Attackers have a very strong presence in our metagame up here.
(Jan. 12, 2014 3:15 PM)" L Wrote: I agree with TBD. If you're facing a top-tier Defense combo. It is gonna be very hard to hit. Even with a top-tier Attack combo. It can be hard. I have my testing to back this up. Though, if you're facing a not so strong Defense combo, you can hit high numbers. This seems very intresting. I can't believe I never found this. Also East, you should try look at things. Even if your skilled, it doesn't mean your gonna win against every Defense combo.No offense L but.. seriously the whole point of this is Testing doesn't prove everything...
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Kaneki - Jan. 12, 2014
I know. I've played Beyblade with my friends and couldn't get a KO. Though, if you guys are agreeing then I suppose I agree? I haven't been to a tornament in a long time. So yeah, sorry I even posted. Honestly, I think skill doesn't really matter. But I'll leave this talk. Seen as the way I see it. It's just for people who've had tornaments.
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - th!nk - Jan. 14, 2014
I could see people getting consistency out of attack types at tournaments, basically you'd want to be able to practice regularly against another person rather than by yourself, for MFB at least (IMO plastics and HMS generally have a lot less trouble with Self-KO for a range of reasons).
Even with the fact I deliberately avoid aiming for opposing defense types (I launch my beyblade to the side and sliding shoot so it hooks around and runs through the centre in its flower pattern), recently I tried launching an attack combo first and then a defense type second and hoo boy were there a lot of self KO's etc - that's harder than tournaments as a lot of my self KO's were instances where the attack combo would have hit the defense type but because it wasn't there yet as I was still putting it on my launcher, the attack combo just flew straight out of the stadium.
It's also worth remembering that by launching attack second it also has more power than the defense combo, so when I didn't self KO my attack types still often lacked the power to handle the defense types (though to be fair the launcher I was using had lost a significant amount of string length so that played a big part too). This is also why I think left spin (at least with the ability to use it properly) is a big advantage even with Weak Launching in play.
Basically, my post on the second page basically saying "THIS. THIS. THIS." in response to Kei's post is still something I absolutely stand by with regards to testing methodology, and this is a huge part of why we started insisting on benchmarks and why they're so vital for attack tests - and even then you should never use something at a tournament you haven't tried beforehand as sometimes things just won't work as well for certain people as others and some copies of a wheel won't work as well as others (for example, I find Beat extremely inconsistent, there are and always have been conflicting opinions over whether Gravity Perseus (ATK Ver.) is better then Lightning L-Drago or vice-versa, and there's the whole thing we're seeing right now with Metal Fury Scythe).
Honestly I feel that we should have a section where we specifically keep this kind of thread for new users to flick through, perhaps editing anything else important from the discussion into a summary in the OP or whatever. Be simpler than people rewriting it all from scratch anyway.
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Cake - Jan. 19, 2014
I have had issues similar to what th!nk mentioned - loss of Attack power leading to skewed test results when launching second, and massive amounts of self-KOs, while testing for my most recent testing thread.
RE: Testing Attack Types; The Factors, and Home vs Tournaments. - Thunder Dome - Apr. 08, 2016
I hate to be the guy who necro's this but I believe it brings many valid points and we should really try to incorporate this into our testing.
Recently I was reading some thread and saw another member post attack vs defense tests. Now while reading the tests I noticed the "Defense combo" was launched first ever time. Nothing should be to interesting about that statement right? It's put in basically ever set of tests, the beyblade that is presumed to have the most stamina or generally the less aggressive type will be launched first. This lit a spark in my head and I ended up digging for this thread. Why should those types always be launched first? This skews the results completely into the attack types favor. At this point in time most players are skilled enough to where if they do attack vs defense testing and launch the defense type first they will almost certainly get high win rates. In an actual tournament if I use attack my opponent will not launch to the center of the stadium for me to get that perfect launch every time. If testing is suppose to help further our knowledge and prepare our selves for an upcoming tournament why are we deceiving our selves with these tests? When X blader get's 90% win rate with attack at home environments but then proceeds to not use attack once an event, don't you think something is wrong?
We should implement this idea of rotating who's launched first in all match ups, it can give us a better representation of the game better than what we are currently doing. Let's really find out how good X attack type is against X defense type.