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+--- Thread: metagame discussion (/Thread-metagame-discussion)
RE: metagame discussion - Evan - Mar. 01, 2011
(Mar. 01, 2011 11:24 PM)ControL_ Wrote:(Mar. 01, 2011 11:20 PM)Evan Wrote:I'm really disappointed on your fallacious statements. CS adds so much height, ALL results to date (even 1v1) agree blatant wins with CS. First handedly seeing, the UK metagame is tilting to revolve around MF 230CS since the Saturday tournament, which is again, blatant proof of MF230CS/D ruling.(Mar. 01, 2011 11:17 PM)MeteorKing Wrote: Evan, mfh basalt bull 230cs puts up just as good a fight, if not better.
Control, were those wins os or ko, mostly? If they're os, then honestly, I'm legitimately concerned about mfh+basalt+230.
How does D fare against attack in that combo, by the way?
I do not doubt MF-H Basalt Bull 230 CS's ability, but I completely disagree that MF-H Basalt Bull 230D would hold up as a defense type.
With any track 125 or higher, most good attack wheels should do serious damage against D.
It doesn't matter if D has any grip at all, from first hand viewing it's so blatant the weight on top finishes off the lack of grip. The gravity itself will counter out any high collision impacts - SERIOUSLY PLASTIC TO METAL COLLISION - 145 is old metagame, we have modernised.
How are you debating this with me. I am NOT questioning CS. I KNOW CS is a great defense bottom, and is even better on 230. My problem lies with you thinking that MF-H Basalt Bull 230D can out spin Burn Bull 145WD.
(Mar. 01, 2011 11:26 PM)BladeStorm Wrote:(Mar. 01, 2011 11:24 PM)Evan Wrote: I have a hard time seeing it out spinning something with as good of stamina as Burn 145WD.
You are behind the times. Hell BD145 HF/S can OS all burn 145 and lower WD and all earth 145 and lower WD.
I've never mentioned HellB145 HF/S. I know that BD145 is an absolute beast for stamina.
RE: metagame discussion - BladeStorm - Mar. 01, 2011
(Mar. 01, 2011 11:26 PM)Evan Wrote: How are you debating this with me. I am NOT questioning CS. I KNOW CS is a great defense bottom, and is even better on 230. My problem lies with you thinking that MF-H Basalt Bull 230D can out spin Burn Bull 145WD.
Doesn't need to OS, can KO most of the time.
RE: metagame discussion - th!nk - Mar. 01, 2011
Evan, I see your point about d, which is why I asked how it did vs atk. Those results do show that basalt outspins libra, I don't think that'll change on cs.
Basalt is heavy enough to screw up anything trying to hit it from below. Dunno why, but it just stops/slows them, especially in the same direction. Basalt Bull 230cs outspins earth bull ad145wd easily, I don't have proper testing, but informally, Earth bull hasn't won once against it in the many battles I've done. Earth is generally more useful than burn for stamina, burn would only get ko'd more by basalt.
That said, this is all on cs, IDK about d.
RE: metagame discussion - ControL_ - Mar. 01, 2011
MF-H Basalt Cancer 230D v Burn Bull 145WD
Before I list remember:
Burn has high collision in particles, massive negative effect on Burn over Basalt.
Downwards movement of weight ontop Burn - massive sliding on WD even at mid angular velocity.
Plastic to Metal collision - Plastic will win.
Will post results in 5 mins.
PS: D, less friction guys, it's less grippy, it's shorter but it has a good endurance nonetheless.
RE: metagame discussion - Deikailo - Mar. 01, 2011
I think the "metagame" is largely based on the flaws of the attack stadium and takara tomy's failure dto release a comparable stadium. Don't get me wrong, I like the stadium, but it's all too easy for an attacker to ko itself out of the stadium and it dips too much, which keeps opponents inside. I think if we saw flatter, but slightly larger stadium, you'd see more attackers.
that's just my observation from battling mfb in some of my old, larger plasticgeneration stadiums that lack a tornado ridge.
RE: metagame discussion - Evan - Mar. 01, 2011
(Mar. 01, 2011 11:30 PM)ControL_ Wrote: MF-H Basalt Cancer 230D v Burn Bull 145WD
Before I list remember:
Burn has high collision in particles, massive negative effect on Burn over Basalt.
Downwards movement of weight ontop Burn - massive sliding on WD even at mid angular velocity.
Plastic to Metal collision - Plastic will win.
Will post results in 5 mins.
Once again, your post makes no sense. Bolded section is gibberish at best.
Obviously there is a lot of misunderstanding going on here.
RE: metagame discussion - BladeStorm - Mar. 01, 2011
(Mar. 01, 2011 11:32 PM)Evan Wrote: Once again, your post makes no sense. Bolded section is gibberish at best.
Obviously there is a lot of misunderstanding going on here.
Learn physics.
RE: metagame discussion - ControL_ - Mar. 01, 2011
Results:
Basalt 8 Burn 2.
Wow Evan really? Wikipedia at very least.
RE: metagame discussion - Evan - Mar. 01, 2011
(Mar. 01, 2011 11:32 PM)BladeStorm Wrote:(Mar. 01, 2011 11:32 PM)Evan Wrote: Once again, your post makes no sense. Bolded section is gibberish at best.
Obviously there is a lot of misunderstanding going on here.
Learn physics.
I am a high school graduate. I took physics. His post was gibberish.
"Burn has high collision in particles" makes no sense. I believe he is referring to recoil, which Basalt also suffers from.
(Mar. 01, 2011 11:31 PM)Deikailo Wrote: I think the "metagame" is largely based on the flaws of the attack stadium and takara tomy's failure dto release a comparable stadium. Don't get me wrong, I like the stadium, but it's all too easy for an attacker to ko itself out of the stadium and it dips too much, which keeps opponents inside. I think if we saw flatter, but slightly larger stadium, you'd see more attackers.
that's just my observation from battling mfb in some of my old, larger plasticgeneration stadiums that lack a tornado ridge.
I see the same problem, but I see the solution different. During the tail end of HMS when everyone was using TBTS we ended up seeing almost entirely attack type combos, because the small size allowed for very aggressive attack on attack battles (and rendered stamina useless).
RE: metagame discussion - Deikailo - Mar. 01, 2011
Plastic absorbs the impact, creating less hindrance. Offensive battling with plastic is actually exactly like the concept of poison serpent in the anime, only it actually works, minus the user fainting after the battle of course.
RE: metagame discussion - BladeStorm - Mar. 01, 2011
(Mar. 01, 2011 11:35 PM)Evan Wrote: I believe he is referring to recoil, which Basalt also suffers from.
Recoil is not an artefact property. It takes 2 beyblades to collide.
RE: metagame discussion - Evan - Mar. 01, 2011
(Mar. 01, 2011 11:37 PM)Deikailo Wrote: Plastic absorbs the impact, creating less hindrance. Offensive battling with plastic is actually exactly like the concept of poison serpent in the anime, only it actually works, minus the user fainting after the battle of course.
I know this. I was referring to the way his post was worded. 230's great defense ability comes from opposing bey's metal wheel hitting the plastic track, causing very little impact.
(Mar. 01, 2011 11:38 PM)BladeStorm Wrote:(Mar. 01, 2011 11:35 PM)Evan Wrote: I believe he is referring to recoil, which Basalt also suffers from.
Recoil is not an artefact property. It takes 2 beyblades to collide.
Of course it does, but certain wheels (Basalt and Burn) have more recoil (or a tendency to violently react to collision) than other wheels (Earth and Libra).
RE: metagame discussion - th!nk - Mar. 01, 2011
Well, basalt overhangs a lot, but still doesn't care about burn being below it. Look at those results there. 8-2 for basalt, which imo says you're wrong, evan.
RE: metagame discussion - Evan - Mar. 01, 2011
(Mar. 01, 2011 11:40 PM)MeteorKing Wrote: Well, basalt overhangs a lot, but still doesn't care about burn being below it. Look at those results there. 8-2 for basalt, which imo says you're wrong, evan.
And now that I've seen results, I will stop. I would however, like to see another member post results as well.
RE: metagame discussion - Deikailo - Mar. 01, 2011
(Mar. 01, 2011 11:35 PM)Evan Wrote: I see the same problem, but I see the solution different. During the tail end of HMS when everyone was using TBTS we ended up seeing almost entirely attack type combos, because the small size allowed for very aggressive attack on attack battles (and rendered stamina useless).hms also had a higher distribution of metal on its body (i.e. Cwd). When the metal is more equally distributed, it makes fora better balance all around. Only flaw I see in mfb; no weight ay the bottom of the bey with too high of a concentration at the top.
RE: metagame discussion - th!nk - Mar. 01, 2011
It's 6am, so maybe when I've slept. But the fact it beats earth ad145wd on cs should also suggest that, though I'd have to test properly to convince you of that, I'm sure (and rightly so).
RE: metagame discussion - ControL_ - Mar. 01, 2011
(Mar. 01, 2011 11:32 PM)Evan Wrote:I see no gibberish, I see another way of saying Recoil correctly, "smash attack" better forcing sliding, which is the friction, the energy loss that most 230 "stamina/defence" do to lowWDs.(Mar. 01, 2011 11:30 PM)ControL_ Wrote: MF-H Basalt Cancer 230D v Burn Bull 145WD
Before I list remember:
Burn has high collision in particles, massive negative effect on Burn over Basalt.
Downwards movement of weight ontop Burn - massive sliding on WD even at mid angular velocity.
Plastic to Metal collision - Plastic will win.
Will post results in 5 mins.
Once again, your post makes no sense. Bolded section is gibberish at best.
Obviously there is a lot of misunderstanding going on here.
RE: metagame discussion - Deikailo - Mar. 01, 2011
You know you guys don't have to rip each other's heads off over a spinning too game. You could just prove it in the stadium like civilized bladers
This is probably the worst part of the metagame. More talk than testing. If you disagree, then just retest.
RE: metagame discussion - BladeStorm - Mar. 01, 2011
(Mar. 01, 2011 11:50 PM)Deikailo Wrote: You know you guys don't have to rip each other's heads off over a spinning too game. You could just prove it in the stadium like civilized bladers
This is probably the worst part of the metagame. More talk than testing. If you disagree, then just retest.
Lol I guess ControL_ wins on the stadium Q.Q (stupid ranked No.7 and more BeyPoints than me)
On Topic: I would like to see the East Coast US bladers have a go at MF-H Hell 230CS versus Earth 85WD
RE: metagame discussion - ControL_ - Mar. 01, 2011
That's how I roll, student with the beypoints, master with the prodigal mindset (i keed). If anyone would like to confirm my results on MF-H Basalt 230D denying Burn Bull 145WD.
RE: metagame discussion - Deikailo - Mar. 02, 2011
Not talking about bey rank because if that was the case, bluezee would win every argument in the customizations forum because he has like a 95%+ win rate (our beypoints don't reflect our recent tournament btw).
RE: metagame discussion - BladeStorm - Mar. 02, 2011
(Mar. 02, 2011 12:00 AM)Deikailo Wrote: Not talking about bey rank because if that was the case, bluezee would win every argument in the customizations forum because he has like a 95%+ win rate (our beypoints don't reflect our recent tournament btw).
It was a sarcasm post if you missed it, I was just highlighting that ControL_ is better than me which he denies (always). Anyway, Bluezee and ControL_ play in seperate metagames.
RE: metagame discussion - Deikailo - Mar. 02, 2011
Can someone define metagame? I think my definition of metagame is different from the wbo's use of it.
Sarcasm is hard to pick up over text and I'm not really familiar with the relationship between you two.
RE: metagame discussion - ControL_ - Mar. 02, 2011
You two as in me and Bluezee or me and Bladestorm? I define metagame a strategy/style/type of blading. Hence stamina English, attack Italian vaguely. Then the different uses of 230 - more in depth?
- Niiightt
RE: metagame discussion - Deikailo - Mar. 02, 2011
You and bladestorm. new york is a lot of stamina, but a lot of our "celebrity"bladers have been switching to attackers.