(Oct. 29, 2021  7:57 PM)Shindog Wrote: Got it.  I guess this would apply to things like:
Orbit vs orbital
Destroy vs Destoryer
Planet vs Planetary
Octa vs Octave
And many others

Hmmm… Is Guardian-H suppose to be Guard?

(Oct. 29, 2021  8:30 PM)froztz Wrote:

(Oct. 29, 2021  7:57 PM)Shindog Wrote: Got it.  I guess this would apply to things like:
Orbit vs orbital
Destroy vs Destoryer
Planet vs Planetary
Octa vs Octave
And many others

Hmmm… Is Guardian-H suppose to be Guard?

Aren't those all just hypersphere version, which would be covered by:
"only one version(for example regular/Dash/SlingShock/Hypersphere/Metal/High etc.) of a Driver is permitted in deck format."

(Oct. 29, 2021  8:33 PM)Shindog Wrote:

(Oct. 29, 2021  8:30 PM)froztz Wrote: Aren't those all just hypersphere version, which would be covered by:
"only one version(for example regular/Dash/SlingShock/Hypersphere/Metal/High etc.) of a Driver is permitted in deck format."

They are.  But if you actually look at something like Power and Power-H or any of the bullets you might not actually be able to tell they are suppose to the variation of a driver.  Same goes with the names.  Personally, I don’t see Octave and think Octa or guardian and guard.

If this is what we decide to do, that is fine.  I would think some explanation/guide/graphic can be helpful.  Ppl have to decide they are indeed the same line.

(Oct. 29, 2021  8:42 PM)froztz Wrote:

(Oct. 29, 2021  8:33 PM)Shindog Wrote: They are.  But if you actually look at something like Power and Power-H or any of the bullets you might not actually be able to tell they are suppose to the variation of a driver.  Same goes with the names.  Personally, I don’t see Octave and think Octa or guardian and guard.

If this is what we decide to do, that is fine.  I would think some explanation/guide/graphic can be helpful.  Ppl have to decide they are indeed the same line.

A graphic would definitely be helpful!

(Oct. 29, 2021  8:56 PM)Shindog Wrote:

(Oct. 29, 2021  8:42 PM)froztz Wrote: A graphic would definitely be helpful!

This is a good example courtesy of Zankye.  I think I own all of hypersphere and half of them I can’t tell what they are or who their cousins are. 



Do we have to now decide if linear is really of the liner lineage?  And how many graphics is enough?  There are also, of course, exclusives to throw ppl off.

(Oct. 29, 2021  10:11 PM)BuilderROB Wrote: I have to agree. There are some good things about this change, mainly the fact that variants of drift and bearing drivers can no longer be used in the same deck. However, I do think things such as attack drivers and Hypersphere versions/slingshock versions of drivers shouldn’t necessarily be barred from being used in the same deck, especially Hypersphere versions. They are literally entirely different drivers that only share the name with each other, nothing else for the most part.

(Oct. 29, 2021  4:05 PM)froztz Wrote: An update on rules for October:

1. Almight is banned in Classic.
   
2. For formats with multiple beyblade selection(P3C1/3on3/Deck), only one version(for example regular/Dash/SlingShock/Hypersphere/Metal/High etc.) of a Driver is permitted in deck format.
   

(Oct. 30, 2021  12:22 AM)th!nk Wrote:

(Oct. 29, 2021  4:05 PM)froztz Wrote: An update on rules for October:

1. Almight is banned in Classic.
   
2. For formats with multiple beyblade selection(P3C1/3on3/Deck), only one version(for example regular/Dash/SlingShock/Hypersphere/Metal/High etc.) of a Driver is permitted in deck format.
   

That last rule sucks tbh - no x'/MX mixing. Was it actually necessary? Tbh I was thinking of suggesting allowing Hasbro versions of drivers alongside TT ones recently in deck to allow different brands of x attack in a single deck in classic and as a way to maybe encourage cross brand use a bit - Hasbro drivers have interesting gimmicks, I'd like to see them get MORE use and exploration, this actually harms that.


Also, metal drivers weight and distro do appear to impact their performance. Personally I much prefer MX on guilty over X. That's not even touching on the above hypersphere discussion...

(Oct. 29, 2021  7:02 PM)originalzankye Wrote: I'm not really a fan of the rule change having only one version of a driver allowed in P3C1/3on3/Deck just feels weirdly limiting to players and also having a big change like that should've at least had an open discussion before being finalized like that.  

It hasn't even been an actual month since we had the Triple DB Booster or the All In One Set, which is why that whole convo sparked because people were worried about Br/Br' and Dr/MDr in deck. Shouldn't something like this rule before finalized at the very least be tested in unranked before it was given the 100% A-OK, feels like it happened too quickly.

I don't even get the point of it with people being so worried about double drift nor double bearing, we had that new tie rule implemented to avoid LAD spam like that from happening.  

Not to mention how people can easily just run Savior or Guilty and they should have little to no trouble KOing that LAD stuff, I feel like this is just done for people who are afraid to deal with the same part instead of them actually trying to think how to counter it.


The idea with this stuff should be to see how the meta develops and adapt to that and see whether or not it is for better or worse for what change needs to happen.

Feels way too soon to put out a rule like that.

(Oct. 29, 2021  7:16 PM)CrisisCrusher07 Wrote: I was using double drift and was knocked out of the top 8 by a pretty lucky KO.

(Oct. 29, 2021  10:11 PM)BuilderROB Wrote: I have to agree. There are some good things about this change, mainly the fact that variants of drift and bearing drivers can no longer be used in the same deck. However, I do think things such as attack drivers and Hypersphere versions/slingshock versions of drivers shouldn’t necessarily be barred from being used in the same deck, especially Hypersphere versions. They are literally entirely different drivers that only share the name with each other, nothing else for the most part.

(Oct. 30, 2021  1:44 AM)Shindog Wrote:

(Oct. 29, 2021  10:11 PM)BuilderROB Wrote: I have to agree. There are some good things about this change, mainly the fact that variants of drift and bearing drivers can no longer be used in the same deck. However, I do think things such as attack drivers and Hypersphere versions/slingshock versions of drivers shouldn’t necessarily be barred from being used in the same deck, especially Hypersphere versions. They are literally entirely different drivers that only share the name with each other, nothing else for the most part.

Sometimes… they don’t even actually share the same name…..  Not really

(Oct. 29, 2021  6:33 PM)BuilderROB Wrote:

(Oct. 29, 2021  6:13 PM)MagikHorse Wrote: Is this something that's actually happening up by you, or is there more going on here? It certainly wasn't happening up in Carmel at all at any rate, which may show that it's strictly a regional thing. Still, read below, because I have a lot to say about this.


Questions: Is the problem that people can do it, or a lack of thinking about how to counter these strategies entirely? My argument here is that it's the latter.

This rule is very clearly meant to stop double Bearing and double Drift, let's not kid ourselves here, but in doing so you're hurting its counters as well as plenty of other strategies. What about double Atomic from someone using Atomic-S? Has that ever been a problem in the past, maybe in Burst Limited or something? Is more than one variant of Charge (Charge'/Charge Metal/Charge I-H, Charge II-H, Charge III-H, Charge Metal-SPM) too strong either? Hunter(') and Hunter-S? Why are we hurting so many other things in the way of just dealing with two "problems" that themselves still leave holes that can be easily exploited by anyone that really wants to put their mind to it? I mean heck, wanna beat Bearing or Drift? Try a little same-spin combo or two, you'll see wonders I assure you (this is coming from someone who has beaten Drift in opposite spin before with Orbit, with witnesses to prove it). I've been splashing in Orbit and Atomic in Indiana, and even almost used Moment, I don't see why you guys can't do that either. Don't have faith in your same-spin launching? Run more Attack to KO them before they have a chance, they're not impossible to KO or anything and Guilty does that job well... oh wait, we just got rid of Xtreme'/Xtreme/Metal Xtreme in the same deck. Ah well, whoops! That's a strategy we've lost now then, and here I just wanted to knock double Bearing around.

Sigh, you still underestimate a few things.
1. Drift’s same spin by people like you are still, STILL criminally underrated. Same spin combos are risky, oh so risky, so it’s not a reliable strategy when you could easily mess up and be OSed in opposite spin.
2. Attack isn’t as good as you think anymore. Savior simply isn’t good enough to always KO stuff in right spin, and I can tell you right now that a good drift user in same spin will likely be able to go up against savior and beat it. Guilty is definitely good, but it’s not quite Rage good (guilty is better than rage, but in terms of back in the day, rage was super good, while guilty is just pretty good). The issue is that attack is very risky, and only skilled users of attack are gonna be able to pull it off consistently. These people are rare to find.
3. What about the rare people who get good drift molds? If you combine that with skill in same spin, you can OS atomic. I believe me and arka.Paul have drifts that can pull this off. Mine is a metal drift which is able to OS atomic in same spin. Don’t believe me? I WILL post a video showing this. I won’t rig it, nothing like that. A legitimate video proving mine can pull it off, and somewhat consistently as well.

You underestimate people who can control same spin drivers like drift and bearing well in same spin. Having two drifts or two bearings in a deck is way more powerful than you think. Trying to counter it simply isn’t enough. This change was needed, albeit they might’ve went a bit far with it in terms of what can’t be used in the same deck.

(Oct. 29, 2021  6:57 PM)#Fafnir Wrote: I can and will inform you of how this logic is flawed. First of all, it's entirely possible to beat Atomic and Orbit Metal with Drift in same spin; I and several others have done so. With this in mind, do you really not think having not one, but two combinations with this potential in a deck is concerning in the slightest? Second of all, do you not realize how easy it is to counter same spin combinations? One good attack combination is all it takes, and then from then on out, all your opponent has to do is pick the combination utilizing a Drift that's the opposite rotation of yours and you're incredibly likely to lose. And, before you say the solution is get good with attack types, Guilty and Savior are good, but they have quite a hard time against opposite spin Drift. Lastly, while it is unfortunate that players can no longer run multiple variants of Xtreme', that doesn't stop you from using Quick', Evolution', etc.

(Oct. 29, 2021  7:16 PM)CrisisCrusher07 Wrote: To answer your question the weekend after bearing' cane out I hosted a tournament in Silver Springs MD. I know the community there well and knew that people were going to try out double drift or double bearing decks. Once top 8 finals started there were 3 people using one of these 2 strategies. I was using double drift and was knocked out of the top 8 by a pretty lucky KO. Geetser99 made it to 3rd place with double bearing in his deck and a Blader with this only being her second time participating in a tournament (because she is a regular Blader's Mom) got 4th with double drift. She actually could of won but doesn't know enough about the game to select good counters. Then I looked through the WBO winning combos thread and saw that over a few of the standard tournaments there were more people adopting this strategy.

now let's talk about how you say to make a deck to counter these strategies. Well how can you do that if you don't know what they are going to run? Say you build a deck to beat double bearing, but you get up to the stadium to see they are using double drift. Well you now have a super unfavorable match up. Or we can go the opposite way where You build a deck to beat double drift and yet your opponent decides to run double Bearing. It would be a super feel bad day because you lost to the wrong choice in match up. Not because you were less skilled.

Speaking of skill.... What about forcing Bladers to think more about their combos? You can say people arent thinking and need to get good because they are just running double drift and bearing. Well what if someone is good with Destroy? They can build a deck with 3 different destroy combos thanks to destroy, destroy' and Metal destroy. Well where is the skill in that if they don't really have to spread out their parts? That had no thought process what so ever. Just throw a version of destroy on every bey and go. I think the community wants to see Bladers win for their innovation and skill. Not because they are a 1 trick pony.

(Oct. 30, 2021  1:07 AM)th!nk Wrote: Legitimately it feels like kneejerk baby stuff and feels like people haven't even looked at a Hasbro bey since the original series. You're telling me xc and xc-spm are the same part at all? They're more different than xc' and zn' 😂 Even high versions perform very differently. Like maybe at a stretch dash and non dash makes sense? But even then I have legitimately not seen any evidence that this is a problem even with Br and Br'. If that is an issue - we are crushing so much variety instead of just addressing the problem parts (which again, I have yet to see evidence of the existence of). Spamina is a much more limited issue if running attack, which just became harder. You run a slower qc' and struggle more versus it, or you try to get your hands on Jl', which isn't that easy for a part that wears, if you want to run multiple attack setups to deal with the spamina setups which have much more accessible and less wear-probe driver options that don't break this rule.

Putting aside the fact I think the rule is bad - the process is crazy... Shocking to me that we have this kneejerk reaction to new drivers without actually getting to see what it does to the meta over the course of a reasonable period. Bizarre. Usually the staff are quite wary with big decisions like this, meanwhile this has been smashed out and our dog of a borrowing rule continues to exist. Wack.

Loved the community consultation on it too (this, by the way, needs to be a step for any significant rule change - the fact it is not mandatory for an organisation like this is ridiculous), the test tournaments etc that we request for most large changes - did I miss those? Consistency? Anyone? Does the community actually matter or are we simply entirely subject to the whims (and this ruling absolutely is a whim) of a very select few?

(Oct. 29, 2021  4:05 PM)froztz Wrote: An update on rules for October:

1. Almight is banned in Classic.
   
2. For formats with multiple beyblade selection(P3C1/3on3/Deck), only one version(for example regular/Dash/SlingShock/Hypersphere/Metal/High etc.) of a Driver is permitted in deck format.
   

(Oct. 29, 2021  6:57 PM)#Fafnir Wrote: I can and will inform you of how this logic is flawed. First of all, it's entirely possible to beat Atomic and Orbit Metal with Drift in same spin; I and several others have done so.

(Oct. 19, 2021  1:09 AM)JCE_13 Wrote:

(Oct. 19, 2021  1:00 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: WHY WOULD YOU UNBAN XTEND+ FOR CLASSIC? Just ban Never because Classic shouldn't be powercrept.

Also still not banning Drift and Zone'+Z (and also Bearing') in Limited is quite concerning. The format will still not be fun.

Well, it looks like you haven’t been to a ranked tournament in awhile. The meta is constantly changing. I beat a few double drift and bearing decks myself. But please don’t argue with staff’s decisions.

(Oct. 30, 2021  5:46 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote:

(Oct. 19, 2021  1:09 AM)JCE_13 Wrote: Well, it looks like you haven’t been to a ranked tournament in awhile. The meta is constantly changing. I beat a few double drift and bearing decks myself. But please don’t argue with staff’s decisions.

Tournaments aren't hosted in my area, not to mention the whole pandemic thing.

Being "beatable" doesn't mean healthy or good for the meta, nor does it take into account the perspective of overall powercreep in the Limited meta.

Arguing is part of discussion. You can't tell me I'm not allowed to express a dissenting opinion.

(Oct. 30, 2021  1:03 PM)JCE_13 Wrote:

(Oct. 30, 2021  5:46 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: Tournaments aren't hosted in my area, not to mention the whole pandemic thing.

Being "beatable" doesn't mean healthy or good for the meta, nor does it take into account the perspective of overall powercreep in the Limited meta.

Arguing is part of discussion. You can't tell me I'm not allowed to express a dissenting opinion.

The "WHY WOULD YOU UNBAN XTEND+" was taking it too far. You can express an opinion without bringing it to that. Sure, argument is a part of the discussion, but the decision is not yours. Xtend+ won't change the classic meta THAT MUCH. Xtend+ is outclassed by Zone'+Z and Never in every way. It may not be exactly "healthy", but it certainly won't hurt. I don't really think anyone is scared of xtend+ anymore.

(Oct. 29, 2021  7:16 PM)CrisisCrusher07 Wrote:

(Oct. 29, 2021  6:13 PM)MagikHorse Wrote: Is this something that's actually happening up by you, or is there more going on here? It certainly wasn't happening up in Carmel at all at any rate, which may show that it's strictly a regional thing. Still, read below, because I have a lot to say about this.


Questions: Is the problem that people can do it, or a lack of thinking about how to counter these strategies entirely? My argument here is that it's the latter.

This rule is very clearly meant to stop double Bearing and double Drift, let's not kid ourselves here, but in doing so you're hurting its counters as well as plenty of other strategies. What about double Atomic from someone using Atomic-S? Has that ever been a problem in the past, maybe in Burst Limited or something? Is more than one variant of Charge (Charge'/Charge Metal/Charge I-H, Charge II-H, Charge III-H, Charge Metal-SPM) too strong either? Hunter(') and Hunter-S? Why are we hurting so many other things in the way of just dealing with two "problems" that themselves still leave holes that can be easily exploited by anyone that really wants to put their mind to it? I mean heck, wanna beat Bearing or Drift? Try a little same-spin combo or two, you'll see wonders I assure you (this is coming from someone who has beaten Drift in opposite spin before with Orbit, with witnesses to prove it). I've been splashing in Orbit and Atomic in Indiana, and even almost used Moment, I don't see why you guys can't do that either. Don't have faith in your same-spin launching? Run more Attack to KO them before they have a chance, they're not impossible to KO or anything and Guilty does that job well... oh wait, we just got rid of Xtreme'/Xtreme/Metal Xtreme in the same deck. Ah well, whoops! That's a strategy we've lost now then, and here I just wanted to knock double Bearing around.

I think it's another case of a poor, uncreative mindset that isn't trying to find counters to these strategies and/or is completely unwilling to take risks shouting for bans. This unwillingness to try and counter these strategies has been something I've been chastising this site as a whole over for months, and yet we've still reached this point despite it to the point where it's actually affecting the game as a whole. No, the issue isn't the parts but rather the players, and overall this ban is a bigger hindrance than a help and squashes just as much if not more of the counterplay.

I must admit, I'm actually appalled by this decision and would see it reversed. This is not needed, it hinders those with lower access to parts, and there are better ways to deal with these basic strategies than banning these repeated parts.

---

And the fact that this even has to be said is dumb as a sack of bricks as well, and leads to a ton of Hasbro confusion.

To answer your question the weekend after bearing' cane out I hosted a tournament in Silver Springs MD. I know the community there well and knew that people were going to try out double drift or double bearing decks. Once top 8 finals started there were 3 people using one of these 2 strategies. I was using double drift and was knocked out of the top 8 by a pretty lucky KO. Geetser99 made it to 3rd place with double bearing in his deck and a Blader with this only being her second time participating in a tournament (because she is a regular Blader's Mom) got 4th with double drift. She actually could of won but doesn't know enough about the game to select good counters. Then I looked through the WBO winning combos thread and saw that over a few of the standard tournaments there were more people adopting this strategy. 
 
now let's talk about how you say to make a deck to counter these strategies. Well how can you do that if you don't know what they are going to run? Say you build a deck to beat double bearing, but you get up to the stadium to see they are using double drift. Well you now have a super unfavorable match up. Or we can go the opposite way where You build a deck to beat double drift and yet your opponent decides to run double Bearing. It would be a super feel bad day because you lost to the wrong choice in match up. Not because you were less skilled.
 
Speaking of skill.... What about forcing Bladers to think more about their combos? You can say people arent thinking and need to get good because they are just running double drift and bearing. Well what if someone is good with Destroy? They can build a deck with 3 different destroy combos thanks to destroy, destroy' and Metal destroy. Well where is the skill in that if they don't really have to spread out their parts? That had no thought process what so ever. Just throw a version of destroy on every bey and go. I think the community wants to see Bladers win for their innovation and skill. Not because they are a 1 trick pony.

(Oct. 30, 2021  1:03 PM)JCE_13 Wrote:

(Oct. 30, 2021  5:46 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: Tournaments aren't hosted in my area, not to mention the whole pandemic thing.

Being "beatable" doesn't mean healthy or good for the meta, nor does it take into account the perspective of overall powercreep in the Limited meta.

Arguing is part of discussion. You can't tell me I'm not allowed to express a dissenting opinion.

The "WHY WOULD YOU UNBAN XTEND+" was taking it too far. You can express an opinion without bringing it to that. Sure, argument is a part of the discussion, but the decision is not yours. Xtend+ won't change the classic meta THAT MUCH. Xtend+ is outclassed by Zone'+Z and Never in every way. It may not be exactly "healthy", but it certainly won't hurt. I don't really think anyone is scared of xtend+ anymore.

Quote:Xtend+ is outclassed by Zone'+Z and Never in every way.

(Nov. 01, 2021  8:51 PM)AirKingNeo Wrote:

(Oct. 30, 2021  1:03 PM)JCE_13 Wrote: The "WHY WOULD YOU UNBAN XTEND+" was taking it too far. You can express an opinion without bringing it to that. Sure, argument is a part of the discussion, but the decision is not yours. Xtend+ won't change the classic meta THAT MUCH. Xtend+ is outclassed by Zone'+Z and Never in every way. It may not be exactly "healthy", but it certainly won't hurt. I don't really think anyone is scared of xtend+ anymore.

Quote:Xtend+ is outclassed by Zone'+Z and Never in every way.

That's proving my point. We're creating and allowing more powercreep, which is bad for classic.

(Oct. 29, 2021  5:08 PM)The Supreme One Wrote:

(Oct. 29, 2021  5:02 PM)CrisisCrusher07 Wrote: This was something I brought up when I saw we were getting bearing dash and metal drift. Since their releases I have seen several decks in the winning combination thread abusing 2 versions of the same driver. I’m really glad to see this change! On the topic of this change I only have 1 question. Are “High” drivers considered different than the other versions of the drivers since their performance with how they interact with different disks, layers, and even stadiums can be a lot different than just having a tighter spring like the other driver versions? I’m fine with either ruling I just want to clarify.

Thanks Crisis! Your feedback certainly helped contribute to this change  For the sake of clarity and future-proofing the format, high drivers are considered the same part, since they are same-name driver variants.