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+---- Thread: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16) (/Thread-MFB-Limited-Ban-List-Discussion-v1-5-9-20-16)
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - DRAGON KING - Apr. 18, 2014
(Apr. 18, 2014 3:49 AM)th!nk Wrote:(Apr. 18, 2014 1:49 AM)ULTIMATE BLAZE Wrote: guys, don't you think wing should be unbanned?
guys don't you think ULTIMATE BLAZE should read my post on why each 4d wheel is banned like he's been told to multiple times already before making another of these posts?
I do.
Maybe the title should say (READ OP BEFORE POSTING!!!) and your post should be quoted in the OP?
It's really annoying to see people saying that parts should be unbanned without proper testing, people asking what parts are banned/legal and people asking why their banned (I can kinda understand the last one, cuz in the OP there isn't a long explanation, hence why I think your post should he quoted up there.)
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Apr. 18, 2014
I was working on an updated version I was going to make Ingulit stick in the OP as I wasn't sure my original post was quite appropriate with regards to language etc. I will try to get that finished soon, though I'm in kinda bad shape at the moment so no promises. Agreed on (READ THE OP!) or similar though, certainly.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Peece_2012 - Apr. 24, 2014
Hello Bladers,
I have looked at the ban list but still am confused about a few parts. Are we allowed using:
X
Drive from Diablo Nemesis HyperbladesDuo from Duo Ice Titan 230WD Hasbro (Not Hyperblade)
Phantom from Takara Tomy Phantom Orion B
VariAres Fusion wheel Hasbro (Not Hyperblade)
L-Drago Guardian Metal and core Hasbro (Not Hyperblade)
85 Spin Track
Sorry to double post but ""Orion B : D""
And X : D Drive
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Dual - Apr. 24, 2014
All of those except Phantom are legal. I'm not sure about Guardian though.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Apr. 24, 2014
(Apr. 24, 2014 1:12 PM)Peece_2012 Wrote: Hello Bladers,
I have looked at the ban list but still am confused about a few parts. Are we allowed using:
X
Duo from Duo Ice Titan 230WD Hasbro (Not Hyperblade)
Phantom from Takara Tomy Phantom Orion B
VariAres Fusion wheel Hasbro (Not Hyperblade)
L-Drago Guardian Metal and core Hasbro (Not Hyperblade)
85 Spin Track
The information is all there. Check the detailed ban list in the OP and it will tell you. If you really can't work it out from that, well then I guess someone will probably help you (edit: well your question has been answered already, haha) but I'm puzzled as to how I could make that list any more specific/understandable at least in the version I posted - if you did check it and something in particular caused you confusion could you please let me know, as I definitely want to try and make such vital information as clear as I can, and I'm sure Ingulit feels the same!
Also re: double posting, the system will merge posts made close enough together but in future, use the edit button. Also if you use the full post window you will get a checkbox that lets you disable smilies in that post, but using spaces is fine too, haha (and usually what I do).
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - The Supreme One - Apr. 24, 2014
Is Omega definitely going to be banned after the qualifiers? I don't see it too often in the winning combos, so it's not like it's dominating anyone's meta...
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Apr. 24, 2014
(Apr. 24, 2014 2:11 PM)The Supreme One Wrote: Is Omega definitely going to be banned after the qualifiers? I don't see it too often in the winning combos, so it's not like it's dominating anyone's meta...
Take another look at those results, tbh. The places that it did show up in, it made a fairly big impact, and it is definitely on another level compared to the other options for attack in Limited.
It deserves a ban - not the easiest to see given the particulars of the wheel, format and situation (though I think there were tournament results that made it kinda apparent), but it's definitely an outlier strength-wise even with the limitation to low tracks - might not be the most dependable against tall stuff (though it's by no means bad against it, and tall track defense isn't exactly good against much else) but what it does to low/mid stuff at the same time and its weight and actual power (sure, KOing by a millimeter or a mile is the same thing, but in a tournament situation which would you take, all else equal). But whether or not it will happen, especially in the next update? A coin could tell you with just as much accuracy as I.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Peece_2012 - Apr. 24, 2014
what is the difference between synchromed and non- synchromed zero g wheels,
Also, is there a thread?
Thank You- Peece
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Ocean - Apr. 24, 2014
YES. SYNCHROMES ARE DOUBLE METAL AND WEIGH 60 GRAMS. Non synchromes don't XD READ BEYWIKI.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - DRAGON KING - Apr. 24, 2014
(Apr. 24, 2014 7:12 PM)Aquamarine Wrote: YES. SYNCHROMES ARE DOUBLE METAL AND WEIGH 60 GRAMS. Non synchromes don't XD READ BEYWIKI.
Not all of them weight exact 60 grams.
Synchromes are when you put together 2 chrome wheels. In synchrome is when you just have a chrome wheel and crystal wheel.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Leone19 - Apr. 24, 2014
(Apr. 24, 2014 2:58 PM)th!nk Wrote:(Apr. 24, 2014 2:11 PM)The Supreme One Wrote: Is Omega definitely going to be banned after the qualifiers? I don't see it too often in the winning combos, so it's not like it's dominating anyone's meta...
Take another look at those results, tbh. The places that it did show up in, it made a fairly big impact, and it is definitely on another level compared to the other options for attack in Limited.
I took another look while reading this.
To be fair, the one I did not post had Omega, yet on a Stamina setup, which is not what is being possibly banned for.
(Feb. 23, 2014 10:47 PM)LikeABoss921 Wrote: Better late than never! Silver spring MD limited tournament
1st place: me
I used...
Burn bull b:d
Variaries b:d
Mf:h screw Pisces wa130 rf
Libra gb145 ewd
Mf:m burn cancer 90 mf
Not sure about other people's combos.
(Mar. 23, 2014 2:38 AM)Dual Wrote: So I'll post my winning combos here, but I don't remember anyone else's.
Tournament: March Beyness
Format: Limited
Place: 2nd
Combos (in order of use):
Burn Dragonis 100MF
Earth Bull TR145WD
Vulcan Dragonis 100MF
Aquario 100MF
(Mar. 29, 2014 7:28 PM)Leone19 Wrote: Episode I: The Phantom (Orion) Menace:
Limited:
1st. ElementChris: Thermal Cancer/Bull B
2nd. Me (Leone19): Meteo L-Drago F230 CF/CH120 EWD, Burn Cyngus 230 D, Scythe Aquario GB145 RSF, VariAres B
3rd. BladerBlock: Burn Fireblaze D125 WD, Earth Aquario 230 CS
(Mar. 30, 2014 9:46 PM)Time Wrote: 4th in MD Qualifier:
Libra TH170/195/220 TB/CS
Burn Hades 85MF
Duo Cancer TR145 EWD
Libra 85 RB
(Mar. 30, 2014 10:59 PM)Stars Wrote: 1st in MD Qualifier
MF-L Scythe Cancer B
MF-L Scythe Cancer TH170TB
MF-H Libra 90RSF
MF-L Libra 90MB
(Apr. 07, 2014 1:12 AM)Kei Wrote: A YEAR: The Month of Rebirth - 4/6/14 - Limited Format
1st: Kei - Duo Cygnus W145EWD / MF-L Scythe Pegasis II CH120RF / MF-L Burn Cancer 100MF / MSF-H Samurai Wyvang R145RSF / MF-H Libra 85RB
2nd: Pockyx3 - Pegasis AD145RF / Libra R145CS / Libra B
3rd: JesseObre - MF Earth Cancer D125EWD / MF Libra GB145R2F
(Apr. 20, 2014 4:11 AM)Scout25 Wrote: The winning combos I used in the last limited tournament in Chicago are as follows
MF-H earth sagittariou 100WD
MF-L duo (hasbro metal fury) 100WD
These were just recent pages, too.
So, Omega isn't necessarily taking up too much space on the Winning Combinations list.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Apr. 24, 2014
Better to look at tournaments where a part shows up for an idea of what it can do than those where it may not, for all we know, have been present in the first place. Having it legal for the championship is an extremely bad idea, and I've already said my piece about it.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Leone19 - Apr. 24, 2014
(Apr. 24, 2014 9:55 PM)th!nk Wrote: Better to look at tournaments where a part shows up for an idea of what it can do than those where it may not, for all we know, have been present in the first place. Having it legal for the championship is an extremely bad idea, and I've already said my piece about it.
My point was simply that it isn't necessarily showing up or placing everywhere, especially in popular and active regions such as Toronto, MD, and CT.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Apr. 24, 2014
That's good for those places.
Not relevant to discussion of whether it deserves a ban, though. Guess it makes a bad decision of leaving it legal more likely, though, still a coin flip really.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Leone19 - Apr. 24, 2014
(Apr. 24, 2014 10:00 PM)th!nk Wrote: That's good for those places....
Not relevant to discussion of whether it deserves a ban, though. Guess it makes a bad decision of leaving it legal more likely, though, still a coin flip really.
I'd think if a part isn't use a lot in many and most active regions or isn't placing, it needs to be looked into a lot further before setting a ban. I know and understand that you are very against keeping Omega and are trying to get it a ban. However, I thought all tournament results were key in deciding a ban, I guess I was wrong about that.
Not going to start an arguement, though.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - The Supreme One - Apr. 24, 2014
(Apr. 24, 2014 9:58 PM)Leone19 Wrote:Not to mention that several metagames, including the ones Leone19 mentioned, use almost all stamina just because of the unreliability factor in attack. There's a risk involved with using attack & that's why people don't use it as much as stamina, even if there are great options out there. Omega was unbanned to encourage attack, but people are still hesitant to use it in most tournament settings, proving that it hasn't crippled limited as you seem to imply.(Apr. 24, 2014 9:55 PM)th!nk Wrote: Better to look at tournaments where a part shows up for an idea of what it can do than those where it may not, for all we know, have been present in the first place. Having it legal for the championship is an extremely bad idea, and I've already said my piece about it.
My point was simply that it isn't necessarily showing up or placing everywhere, especially in popular and active regions such as Toronto, MD, and CT.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - *Ginga* - Apr. 24, 2014
I've definitely seen Omega in every qualifier I went to (two, NC and MD), and I can understand why it isn't showing up: It came in a Hyperblade, but at the time it wasn't competitive, so no one bought it. And obviously it is sorta rare since it only came from TT through the CoroCoro magazine, making it in fairly expensive.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Apr. 24, 2014
(Apr. 24, 2014 10:05 PM)The Supreme One Wrote:(Apr. 24, 2014 9:58 PM)Leone19 Wrote:Not to mention that several metagames, including the ones Leone19 mentioned, use almost all stamina just because of the unreliability factor in attack. There's a risk involved with using attack & that's why people don't use it as much as stamina, even if there are great options out there. Omega was unbanned to encourage attack, but people are still hesitant to use it in most tournament settings, proving that it hasn't crippled limited as you seem to imply.(Apr. 24, 2014 9:55 PM)th!nk Wrote: Better to look at tournaments where a part shows up for an idea of what it can do than those where it may not, for all we know, have been present in the first place. Having it legal for the championship is an extremely bad idea, and I've already said my piece about it.
My point was simply that it isn't necessarily showing up or placing everywhere, especially in popular and active regions such as Toronto, MD, and CT.
A format that is so stamina-centric in limited is an aberration with regards to consideration of the competitive combinations list.
In the places we know Omega appeared, it made a big impact. In testing, it has made a big impact - and even managed to win me over despite my initial skepticism and what some might consider excessive enthusiasm for Attack's presence in the format - once I put my mind to finding a reliable counter to it, I quickly realised that the only thing even remotely worthy of that name was the format's other lurking (well, lurking no longer) horror, Scythe.
At least with Scythe around, there are two wheels in the race. Scythe has in my opinion fulfilled the agreement regarding its ban, whether that's others opinion or not, I have little doubt it'll be cast from the format in time. If Omega isn't also gone by then, well, anywhere where people are willing to use attack are going to have a very dull metagame.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Leone19 - Apr. 24, 2014
I still find it interesting that when Omega was said to have showed up in the MD Qualifier, yet the winner did not use or win with Omega.
So it didn't necessarily make a "big impact" there.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Tri - Apr. 24, 2014
I just hope if one is decided to be banned, the other goes as well.
Omega hasn't showed up in many tournaments not because of attacks "unreliability", but in my opinion because it was not available for very long. Where it is available though, it's been getting a lot of use and doing well from what I read and heard.
Scythe is killing everything finding use in stamina, defense, anti attack, and pretty good attack from what I've tried. So yeah defintely give it a bye bye.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Apr. 24, 2014
Rarity is also a point - a rare part being broken and related issues with regard to banning... As I said, coin flip.
(Apr. 24, 2014 10:05 PM)The Supreme One Wrote:(Apr. 24, 2014 9:58 PM)Leone19 Wrote:Not to mention that several metagames, including the ones Leone19 mentioned, use almost all stamina just because of the unreliability factor in attack. There's a risk involved with using attack & that's why people don't use it as much as stamina, even if there are great options out there. Omega was unbanned to encourage attack, but people are still hesitant to use it in most tournament settings, proving that it hasn't crippled limited as you seem to imply.(Apr. 24, 2014 9:55 PM)th!nk Wrote: Better to look at tournaments where a part shows up for an idea of what it can do than those where it may not, for all we know, have been present in the first place. Having it legal for the championship is an extremely bad idea, and I've already said my piece about it.
My point was simply that it isn't necessarily showing up or placing everywhere, especially in popular and active regions such as Toronto, MD, and CT.
A metagame that is so stamina-centric in limited is somewhat an aberration with regards to consideration of the banlist, to put it excessively bluntly. I don't mean any disrespect to the players in those locations, it is just that these places are reflecting the format in a rather strange manner, and this is an issue centred entirely around the affected part of the spectrum, so, I would tend towards weighting other places more heavily in this particular situation.
In the places we know Omega appeared (we really do need to have a well-managed "make a note whether these things were present/available to competitors (if the latter but not the former, explanations would be appreciated)" list accompanying standard winning combos reports, haha), it made a big impact. In testing, once it found a place for the abundance of power it has always had to actually be significantly more useful compared to Pegasis, it has made a big impact - and even managed to win me over despite my initial skepticism and what some might consider excessive enthusiasm for Attack's presence in the format.
The point of change there was when I tried to find a reliable counter to it - there are some Scythe combinations that trade off a lot of performance vs tall track defense (uncommon, but they're a non-RF thing with a chance of holding up vs Omega - not to 'counter' level, but they're something at least) to prevent Omega getting under them that do well enough to earn that from what I've seen - my results with omega still being less impressive than others, mind you - but Scythe is an aberration in its own right. Aside from that there are unreliable options in Libra and some tall track defense customs, but they're not good enough to really be called counters (and Libra also requires RF and all that entails) and Tall Track Defense loses to pretty much everything else in the format, so they'd struggle to be viable even if they were reliable counters.
On the other hand, the format is to a degree balanced with both around - of course, it's also exactly what it was designed to avoid - overcentralized and one of the responsible wheels is 4D no less, but removing one without the other - well, I'm glad I'm not in a position where I'd have to choose between banning neither or banning scythe, I'll say that much.
Leone19: Yeah, they only had Scythe and Libra, the other two wheels even worth mentioning with Omega around, and didn't use attack at all.
Omega is an Attack Wheel and that will always limit its usage, no matter how much it outclasses other attack wheels or how strong it is. Lighting somehow managed to not be the only wheel seeing use when its greatest obstacle, the thing most likely to cause it to falter, was MF Earth Bull C145WB. It is also not bad against opposing attack wheels - it will beat lightning (and was probably a large reason for the drop in Lightning usage in NC despite its previous dominance) and has the upper hand against Pegasis and most other attack wheels through height and weight - though obviously same spin attack vs attack is still dicey for both parties.
Though it is perhaps not something that should be considered for a decision, I would also heavily question anyone who disagrees with erring on the side of caution re: potentially excessively dominant parts for our flagship tournament of the year and the format's greatest chance to prove itself to a broad audience - an audience to which I feel very strongly that it is in the best interests of the WBO see Limited at its best - if our own format is a mess for our biggest event of the year then what does that say of us as a whole? Perhaps that helps understand some of my concern about Omega.
Were GBT2 not on the horizon I wouldn't be so concerned about the prospect of Omega in a Scythe-Free Limited for a little while, I don't think it's necessary, but I can understand that not everyone is going to see it that way. If it came down to it, I'd personally be open to a precautionary temporary ban on Omega just for BeyDays/GBT2, even. I don't really expect that sort of proposal would gain any traction, but no harm in mentioning it, right?
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - *Ginga* - Apr. 24, 2014
^This (meant at Tri).
If you also look at the winning combos, not much pure attack was used either ...
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Apr. 24, 2014
Yeah, it is worth keeping in mind that in addition to the natural issues even the best attack wheel will face (refer to what I said about lightning), Omega and Scythe are moderating each other right now, and Scythe's defense/stamina focus gives it a big advantage there even if Omega is capable of handling most of the combinations it has shown up in.
The fact there is an excessively powerful defensive wheel in the format - even if Omega is one of the very few things capable of knocking out its flagship defensive combinations - is always going to be an imposition against Attack types. Omega has seen success in spite of this, which is, well, more than I thought any Attack wheel capable of.
By the way, I edited my previous post because I worded something in it rather carelessly, apologies if that caused anyone concern, I'm a little out of sorts today.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Leone19 - Apr. 24, 2014
(Apr. 24, 2014 10:38 PM)th!nk Wrote: Rarity is also a point - a rare part being broken and related issues with regard to banning... As I said, coin flip.
(Apr. 24, 2014 10:05 PM)The Supreme One Wrote:Leone19: Yeah, they only had Scythe and Libra, the other two wheels even worth mentioning with Omega around, and didn't use attack at all.(Apr. 24, 2014 9:58 PM)Leone19 Wrote: My point was simply that it isn't necessarily showing up or placing everywhere, especially in popular and active regions such as Toronto, MD, and CT.Not to mention that several metagames, including the ones Leone19 mentioned, use almost all stamina just because of the unreliability factor in attack. There's a risk involved with using attack & that's why people don't use it as much as stamina, even if there are great options out there. Omega was unbanned to encourage attack, but people are still hesitant to use it in most tournament settings, proving that it hasn't crippled limited as you seem to imply.
I think (no pun intended
), my point is being slightly missed. You mentioned anywhere where Omega was used, it made an impact. It did not at that tournament, in which (a) player(s) used Omega. Not using other Attack combinations isn't really too valid of an argument, there. Also, you previously stated the only wheel worth mentioning against Omega was Scythe. Is Libra also a valid counter to Omega?
(I'm really not trying to come off as sarcastic by asking that, as it's an honest question/thought, at this point.)
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Apr. 25, 2014
I recall Omega placing in MD - placing is first, second, third or fourth, or at least this being mentioned. That it did not place first considering what did is not the worst thing ever. It certainly made an impression on *Ginga*, anyway.
Libra's underside is it's weak point defensively, and Omega is really good at getting under things. Libra anti-attack stands a chance (this is a same spin RF vs RF chance, and Omega still has the upper hand), and I could see Libra LTDC being enough for an Omega user to opt to use something else rather than take the risk even though Omega does well against it (better than any other Attack type by a solid margin, even Pegasis is somewhat dodgy against Libra LTDC, which worsens with wear), but it is not a valid or reliable counter - Scythe is the only thing I've tried that has managed that, and even then only as Anti-Attack.
After Scythe Low Track Anti-Attack, Earth/Flame 230RSF/RB are probably the next best bet, but they're still unreliable (also your risk breaking a tip seeing as Omega 85 is kinda a jerk with regards to hitting the side of tips if there's nothing else for it to hit) and Omega can use slightly taller tracks to swing things even more in its favour (main cost I've seen is doing even more poorly vs low track scythe anti-attack, but there might be others, probably other Omega?).
Libra still deserves mentioning because it does really well against a lot of the meta if you put Scythe and Omega (which obviously not everyone is going to have) aside, as well as not always being completely blown away by them. It's not on their level by any means, though.