rooneyt Wrote:wats a troll

Tamer Brad Wrote:I'm sure I'm not the only one staring at their screen in carp disbelief right now.

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:No matter how many matches you win in the octagon if you can't beat the element of surprise and a shovel then you aren't a true martial artist. If someone is actually trying to kill you I think there is no way you are going to win with karate or judo.

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:It takes entirely too long to apply this technique. Also, it is completely useless against someone with a bladed weapon. I've been studying ninjutsu for a while now. I've also had experience in some other styles and my conclusion is that it is easier to teach a technique to defend against attackers than it is to teach one technique for a fist, and one for knives, and one for sticks, etc. Learning one thing repeatedly is easier than learning more then one thing repeatedly.

Composer of Requiems Wrote:

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:No matter how many matches you win in the octagon if you can't beat the element of surprise and a shovel then you aren't a true martial artist. If someone is actually trying to kill you I think there is no way you are going to win with karate or judo.

Martial arts are rather outdated by now. They were not designed for use against modern weapons. And against the thing about surprise and a good shovel, well, theoretically, training in martial arts should also include training in detecting someone sneaking up behind you. At least, that's what used to be part of the training.

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:It takes entirely too long to apply this technique. Also, it is completely useless against someone with a bladed weapon. I've been studying ninjutsu for a while now. I've also had experience in some other styles and my conclusion is that it is easier to teach a technique to defend against attackers than it is to teach one technique for a fist, and one for knives, and one for sticks, etc. Learning one thing repeatedly is easier than learning more then one thing repeatedly.

We're kids who have to go to school and stuff. Consider that initially, martial artists trained all day without needing to worry about much else.

PRINCEcharming Wrote:Ok, thread partially derailed.
Post the ultimate Martia Art.

I vote for the german school of fencing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_school_of_swordsmanship
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3DhjFUOG6Y

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:So far, the only martial art that I have seen acknowledge techniques of perception is ninjutsu. Also, even though most people don't have time to train my point still stands. I think when you look at a martial art, you should pay more attention to the conditions they were created in.

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:This style cannot be the ultimate style. How would one win against multiple opponents when using a style like this? This is just one of the flaws I see.

Composer of Requiems Wrote:

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:So far, the only martial art that I have seen acknowledge techniques of perception is ninjutsu. Also, even though most people don't have time to train my point still stands. I think when you look at a martial art, you should pay more attention to the conditions they were created in.

I'm referring to the part which says it's "easier" to learn... when first developed, martial arts were something a person can devote his entire life to, trying to perfect it. Because people could devote all their time to it, that's why it became so complex, so it would have more depth. Learning a single move... well, it would work the first time, maybe more, but people would catch on.

The idea of teaching techniques for various equipment is that different things function differently. Techniques learnt for a light sword could also apply for a stick, techniques learnt for a heavy sword could apply for a baseball bat, etc. but not the other way round. The objective is to have a full comprehensive education so that one could handle any situation one comes across. Learning one single technique, as mentioned earlier, has limits.

Nowadays, the purpose of martial arts is totally different, that's why the focus has changed. Since you would be defending yourself against a random person that chances are, you won't ever be seeing again, a small amount of generic techniques will do to save your life.

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:This style cannot be the ultimate style. How would one win against multiple opponents when using a style like this? This is just one of the flaws I see.

It's just like the ultimate Beyblade~

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:This style cannot be the ultimate style. How would one win against multiple opponents when using a style like this? This is just one of the flaws I see.

PRINCEcharming Wrote:

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:This style cannot be the ultimate style. How would one win against multiple opponents when using a style like this? This is just one of the flaws I see.

You're taking that a little more seriously than I had intended, but in that case: no style will defeat multiple opponents that are close to a match for the loner in a one-on-one basis, and whom have any idea what they're doing.
There is no effective defense against a significant enough tactical disadvantage.

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:

PRINCEcharming Wrote:

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:This style cannot be the ultimate style. How would one win against multiple opponents when using a style like this? This is just one of the flaws I see.

You're taking that a little more seriously than I had intended, but in that case: no style will defeat multiple opponents that are close to a match for the loner in a one-on-one basis, and whom have any idea what they're doing.
There is no effective defense against a significant enough tactical disadvantage.

Actually in ninjutsu, they teach that a lot of the times, fighting more than one opponent can be an advantage.

PRINCEcharming Wrote:

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:

PRINCEcharming Wrote:

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:This style cannot be the ultimate style. How would one win against multiple opponents when using a style like this? This is just one of the flaws I see.

You're taking that a little more seriously than I had intended, but in that case: no style will defeat multiple opponents that are close to a match for the loner in a one-on-one basis, and whom have any idea what they're doing.
There is no effective defense against a significant enough tactical disadvantage.

Actually in ninjutsu, they teach that a lot of the times, fighting more than one opponent can be an advantage.

Maybe against inferior opponents, or those who can't coordinate their efforts, sure.

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:You are right about the fact that martial arts change because martial arts are used for different purposes now. However, these changes are not positive. A lot of the techniques taught now will most likely get you killed in a situation where the opponent is trying to kill you. You are also right that most people don't have time to train to perfection, but my point is not that people can do it. My point is that even if someone did have this time they couldn't do it because of that complexity you mentioned.

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:The reason that martial arts became so complex is because after times of war, there was no use for these martial arts. Over time people added things and such that they thought needed improvement. However more often than not these things added were taking away from the art, not adding. This is because they didn't know what actual warfare was like. Originally everything you learned was for a reason. But since people couldn't see the reasons they began to do it their own way.

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:Also, in reference to what you said about weapons. I do not agree, but I see why you would think this way. When I say that teaching the same way to do it with every weapon, what I am focusing on is not the weapon. I mean to say that the movements your body makes should be the same no matter what weapon you use. I think you probably will still see things your way, but I can't really explain this too well without showing you. You said using one technique wouldn't work with all styles or that it would work for the first time. It is not just one technique. It is all techniques of a style, but they can ALL be applied to any weapon. The concepts I am talking about are mostly from ninjutsu or the other nine takamatsu-den schools. Their concepts vary from most martial arts, or at least the way those martial arts are now.

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:When I said to look at the conditions where the styles were created I think I should have been more clear. I'll give an example. Karate was created in Okinawa. Okinawa is an island. It was created for the purpose of defending against samurai who were coming to the island. Most punches in Karate look like this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=p0AoHQjUdos
Now that works against samurai who are slowed down by their 80 lb of armor. But that will not work against someone who is trying to stab you with a switchblade. Another example: Muay Thai. When Muay Thai was created training consisted of you attacking stuff until your bones broke and then they healed back stronger than before. Doing this meant that you could only fight up until about age 23. Ludicrous? But, it was fine because the reason they did it was to earn enough money by fighting to support their familes.

PRINCEcharming Wrote:

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:

PRINCEcharming Wrote:

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:This style cannot be the ultimate style. How would one win against multiple opponents when using a style like this? This is just one of the flaws I see.

You're taking that a little more seriously than I had intended, but in that case: no style will defeat multiple opponents that are close to a match for the loner in a one-on-one basis, and whom have any idea what they're doing.
There is no effective defense against a significant enough tactical disadvantage.

Actually in ninjutsu, they teach that a lot of the times, fighting more than one opponent can be an advantage.

Maybe against inferior opponents, or those who can't coordinate their efforts, sure.

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:I was just clarifying what I meant about looking at the conditions that the martial arts were created under. For Karate, the Okinawans had time to punch this way because their opponents were weighed down by amror. But nowadays the punch is taught the same way except opponents aren't usually wearing armor.

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:Also, I am sorry, but I can't explain what I mean with the same thing for every weapon in words. If we ever meet I'd be more than happy to.

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:About what you said about the sai, I think I understand a lot of your points thanks to this. I guess since we have completely different backgrounds (China and Japan) this is probably why our opinions are different. I think Bruce Lee once said, "Put every great teacher together in a room, and they'd agree about everything; put their disciples in there and they'd argue about everything." I'd like to learn more about Chinese fighting styles. I guess I will try if I ever have free time.

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:I can't think of a way of countering your statement. But to be honest, I would not feel safe about me and my whole class attacking my teacher with knives.

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:I was referring more to the "horse" (or at least thats what they call it" position that they get into when the punch. I think it takes entirely too long to do. You know, I enjoy this discussion. Usually when I try to have a conversation about this people try to force me to have their opinions. I enjoy this.

PRINCEcharming Wrote:

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:I can't think of a way of countering your statement. But to be honest, I would not feel safe about me and my whole class attacking my teacher with knives.

I'm thinking that this is because you don't currently have a plan of attack for killing your teacher, and you consider what I assume to be their superior martial prowess to be a tactical disadvanatage. Is that right/close/way off?

Having thought about it, I can certainly see a point where the lines between strategy and technique become blurred, where it might well be possible to teach a method that is widely applicable and which, for instance, ensures that you are only available as a target for one member of a group at a time.

My original statement derives from my understanding that positioning and similar factors are not neccessarily part of a martial art, but rather part of strategies devised seperately from technique.
Honestly, I've never actually studied any particular martial art, so this may be a misconception on my part.

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:Technically a ninja shouldn't be in this dangerous position from the getgo. They were amazing milatary tacticians.

Composer of Requiems Wrote:

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:Technically a ninja shouldn't be in this dangerous position from the getgo. They were amazing milatary tacticians.

Say, someone drugs a ninja with a sniper rifle using dart rounds, so he passes out, then surrounds him with...

Cye Kinomiya Wrote:The ninja should be fully aware that someone intends to do something like this, therefore should not put himself in a situation where this might happen.

This sounds almost impossible, but hey I have no intention of making believers out of anyone.

Guitar_Legend Wrote:wait, wasnt this a UFC thread?