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+--- Thread: metagame discussion (/Thread-metagame-discussion)
RE: metagame discussion - -_- - Feb. 28, 2011
no, i made it about this current meta
not how attack is struggling but what i ment waz how powerfull defence and stamina has gotten, so if we have a proper understanding of why the defence/stamina game is striving than we can come up with ways to counter it.
RE: metagame discussion - lord Wolfblade - Feb. 28, 2011
(Feb. 28, 2011 6:08 PM)sexy child Wrote: but hell kerbex bd145 wd (me) lost to mf basalt horogium ad145wd(blitz) 2-3 so it is not that great, loli ment more of stamina VS attack. so, how well are attack types VS MF basalt ___ ad145wd? if attack does badly then ban basalt from stamina use to
so i dont think hell and bd145 is a problem.
@bladerstorm i understand that only the testing of one member cant really be taken, but it is still true that 145>230...
RE: metagame discussion - -_- - Feb. 28, 2011
(Feb. 28, 2011 6:10 PM)BladeStorm Wrote:(Feb. 28, 2011 6:08 PM)sexy child Wrote: bladestorm, you know a lot about that, like when u beat me with mf gravity perseus r145 hf/s
but hell kerbex bd145 wd (me) lost to mf basalt horogium ad145wd(blitz) 2-3 so it is not that great, lol
so i dont think hell and bd145 is a problem.
You got 3 parts wrong in my combo, Also it wins because of different reasons than "145variant RF" based Beyblades.
ok, r145 was wrong but i vividly remember everything else.
no as i used libra 230 cs and beat burn cancer 145 sd in tha tourney and won
RE: metagame discussion - th!nk - Feb. 28, 2011
Frankly, tournaments have always been like that. If we see a shift away from attack in Italy, I'll start to worry. I haven't checked the latest basalt testing, but I'm still confident MF Lightning L Drago CH120RF is generally a solid choice, if you can master it. That and MF Gravity Perseus R145RF, generally, are still reliable.
I'm also still interested to see what happens with Metal Flat, as it becomes more available, and how that affects defence.
Basically, I think the metagame is probably just re-adjusting, and if anything causes it to stagnate, I trust the WBO to notice and take care of it, through appropriate action.
RE: metagame discussion - BladeStorm - Feb. 28, 2011
Most importantly, there is no true "unified" Meta-game. Multiple, divergent, meta-games exist. These are centred around the players of each region. For example, If I went to Italy for a tourney, most definitely i'll be slaughtered. This is the main reason why I don't advise people what to use, buy or do. Just use whatever works for you.
RE: metagame discussion - Callum6939 - Feb. 28, 2011
stamina and defence has come a really long way and since the weight has no limit its only going to get harder, but thankfully meteo's equalizing abilities does help attack users abit
RE: metagame discussion - -_- - Feb. 28, 2011
@ meteor king
i doubt the italian metagame will derail because they trust attack and nothing else, and tend to steer away from stamina ect.
RE: metagame discussion - Callum6939 - Feb. 28, 2011
also at the latest UK tournament Feb-Bey-ary Freeze i seen a couple o these combos MF Basalt ____ 230 CS/MB at the same time as the struggle against height theres also alot of weight >.<
RE: metagame discussion - -_- - Feb. 28, 2011
yeah, as i was telling bladestorm, uk blading is just about who can afford the parts and deception tactics(imo)
RE: metagame discussion - th!nk - Feb. 28, 2011
And, there's a reason they trust attack. Look at the Italian Metagame thread in the advanced forum.
Honestly, in the US/UK/Whatever, generally, attack has never been common in tournaments, even when it was getting such amazing results. It's just too risky with Self-KO's, for most people who don't practice enough. I mainly use it more because a) There are never any tourneys near me, and b) because it's more interesting.
There's no real change to the metagame, and it needs more time to develop.
I'm just suggesting you're making something out of nothing. Even if you're right, we definitely need more time to see how this new metagame pans out, as I still believe it needs to re-equilibriate.
Frankly, from what testing I've done so far, if I had to just pick a beyblade to use, in a theoretical Perth tourney, disregarding any knowledge of my opponent, it'd still be MF Lightning L Drago CH120RF, MF Gravity Perseus R145RF, or something on Metal Flat, either way, an attack type. This is despite the fact I own pretty much every top tier defense and stamina part (except earth/burn mold 1 and Virgo, but they're now basically outclassed anyway). I've never really struggled to use them, and Lightning L Drago, from what I saw before my CH120's broke, and since then just using 145, it is still a horrible prospect to stare down. It's just hard to use, moreso at 145, so people need to practice, practice, practice, at the cost of a few RF's (honestly, TT would make a killing on 5 packs of RF's).
RE: metagame discussion - Callum6939 - Feb. 28, 2011
wow long description... ok i get what your saying and stuff but ive noticed alot of CSs being used so i surpose a destableizing bey for example mf lightning l drago 90 wf, could help as it would have more stamina and a good power, and although every one at tourneys have stopped using the rf and r2f, WFs could be a usefull tool, and i know im definatly going to use it next time
RE: metagame discussion - Serotonin - Feb. 28, 2011
(Feb. 28, 2011 6:26 PM)BladeStorm Wrote: Most importantly, there is no true "unified" Meta-game. Multiple, divergent, meta-games exist. These are centred around the players of each region. For example, If I went to Italy for a tourney, most definitely i'll be slaughtered. This is the main reason why I don't advise people what to use, buy or do. Just use whatever works for you.
Just for the sake of discussion, why is this then? Why is it that there is such a high concentration of players who have success with Attack types in Italy?
RE: metagame discussion - Callum6939 - Feb. 28, 2011
<3 MeteorKing is saying the attack half of the meta game is striving, but ours is more focused on using stamina and defence
RE: metagame discussion - Serotonin - Feb. 28, 2011
(Feb. 28, 2011 9:28 PM)Callum6939 Wrote: <3 MeteorKing is saying the attack half of the meta game is striving, but ours is more focused on using stamina and defence
That's not an answer to the general question I posed. I know and understand what MeteorKing said.
(Feb. 28, 2011 6:40 PM)sexy child Wrote: yeah, as i was telling bladestorm, uk blading is just about who can afford the parts and deception tactics(imo)
The Beyblade hobby, in my opinion, has always, always revolved around these two factors. It's about preparation. Use the correct customisation, and you will most likely, if not always, win; launch techniques and power are relatively easier to master.
RE: metagame discussion - Callum6939 - Feb. 28, 2011
and if you cant afford allot of parts buy somet with most of them, like top tier stamina buy earth aquila and bull (any except pre-hws)
RE: metagame discussion - -_- - Feb. 28, 2011
ok, reguardless of what pans out, imma make a conscience effort to use attack next tourney,
probably mf gravity perseus r145 r2f and i will try to spark the western attack metagame.
RE: metagame discussion - Callum6939 - Feb. 28, 2011
(Feb. 28, 2011 9:45 PM)sexy child Wrote: ok, reguardless of what pans out, imma make a conscience effort to use attack next tourney,
probably mf gravity perseus r145 r2f and i will try to spark the western attack metagame.
exactly my plan MF pegasus 145 rf and meteo rush and vulcan of course lol
RE: metagame discussion - th!nk - Feb. 28, 2011
I'd stick to rf, not r2f, as the latter is less effective in left spin, which you should be using more often than right.
Callum, other than meteo, those won't get you far. Gotta be left these days for 230 and rubber tipped defense.
By the way, what was that talk about wf? Mf is pretty cool ya know
RE: metagame discussion - ControL_ - Feb. 28, 2011
(Feb. 28, 2011 9:45 PM)sexy child Wrote: ok, reguardless of what pans out, imma make a conscience effort to use attack next tourney,Hope I get you then, you'll be getting constant 3-0s with that sort. New Heavy, absorbing, grippy MF-H Basalt 230CS will sort out attacks i've seen.
probably mf gravity perseus r145 r2f and i will try to spark the western attack metagame.
Rather far-fetched buy perhaps the Italians like to take that risk? To date I havn't seen their reaction to 230CS thus far - Perhaps it will change?
RE: metagame discussion - Serotonin - Feb. 28, 2011
(Feb. 28, 2011 10:01 PM)ControL_ Wrote: Rather far-fetched buy perhaps the Italians like to take that risk? To date I havn't seen their reaction to 230CS thus far - Perhaps it will change?
That is definitely factor, but I just think it's weird that there is such a concentration of players who are willing to take that risk. It could just be an contagious adventurous spirit which breeds an atmosphere of high risk ...
Yeah, precisely. Your 230CS point is a good one.
RE: metagame discussion - -_- - Feb. 28, 2011
kevin ill probably b in your group next month, lol weel see but in practice my attack combo (mf gravity perseus r145 rf) beats mf-h hell bull 230 cs?
we will just have to c, lol
RE: metagame discussion - ControL_ - Feb. 28, 2011
Well 230 launching techniques are a tricky one; easily you can see the various change in launch techniques - i.e players at the tournament were getting constant low results with my combo i lent to help, yet with me it was metagame crushing - Choosing D over CS to get a nice slant. Definitely beats Hell Bull, Hell packs more under recoil imo even with Basalts uneven weight distribution.
MF Gravity Perseus R145RF doesn't get close when both get a "perfect" launch.
EDIT:
5 quick matches (1 player testing, sorry BladeStorm - They like it??) 4-1 to Basalt 230 against MF Grav Pers R145RF, 3-2 to Hell 230CS. Basalt just doesn't get pushed as much, rounded shape, recoil helps KO for itself ect. Hell does just as well, and i'm sure would be as good as basalt if more tests were done. Hell230CS is just far too tall for much metaltometal contact.
EDIT2:
-Michael/Bladestorm is trying his best to reveal his thoughts on the divergent metagames as simple as possible.
RE: metagame discussion - -_- - Feb. 28, 2011
which brings us back to my point on how strong defence and stamina is nowdays.
i think the italian attack meta is striving because everyone is using attack and no-one uses defence or stamina and when they do they dont have the technique to use a bey of that type or they use outdated combos but i think that will change soon now libra is unbanned, people will start experementing with defence and stameina with 230 ect(in italy)
RE: metagame discussion - Callum6939 - Feb. 28, 2011
(Feb. 28, 2011 10:01 PM)ControL_ Wrote:(Feb. 28, 2011 9:45 PM)sexy child Wrote: ok, reguardless of what pans out, imma make a conscience effort to use attack next tourney,Hope I get you then, you'll be getting constant 3-0s with that sort. New Heavy, absorbing, grippy MF-H Basalt 230CS will sort out attacks i've seen.
probably mf gravity perseus r145 r2f and i will try to spark the western attack metagame.
Rather far-fetched buy perhaps the Italians like to take that risk? To date I havn't seen their reaction to 230CS thus far - Perhaps it will change?
seen you using that i would use my destableizer lol
RE: metagame discussion - BladeStorm - Feb. 28, 2011
(Feb. 28, 2011 9:23 PM)♥ Wrote:(Feb. 28, 2011 6:26 PM)BladeStorm Wrote: Most importantly, there is no true "unified" Meta-game. Multiple, divergent, meta-games exist. These are centred around the players of each region. For example, If I went to Italy for a tourney, most definitely i'll be slaughtered. This is the main reason why I don't advise people what to use, buy or do. Just use whatever works for you.
Just for the sake of discussion, why is this then? Why is it that there is such a high concentration of players who have success with Attack types in Italy?
My theory is that an emergent, high success combo, out of the parts pool becomes prominent in a localised region. This combo, I call the "Primary Archetype". This primary archetype is at the top of its region for having the most consistent results. unsurpisinglyy it falls to Earth WD to become our primary archetype because of the high success it has against random combos such as Storm 145HF, Rock ED145S, Dark 100HF/S. While not flawless, Earth WD, at that moment in time is the most consistent.
From this point, I believe the meta-game can diverge into different instances.
(Note that this is an over-simplification to present my theory)
The first being an "RF-Based" meta-game, where the focus is to defeat the primary archetype via KO. Earth WD is forced into the position of "Secondary Archeptype", while players strive to find combos which defeat both the new "Primary Archetype", (Lightning 145RF as an example) and the "Secondary Archetype". For example it is found that MF Lightning Low track variant RF does well against both the popular archetypes. Our Earth WD is pushed further and further into obscurity, where it has no hope to win consistently against the primary and secondary archetypes. This example has a few parallels to the theory of evolution.
The second theory involves certain bladers I call as "Pacemakers", you would be one yourself
. Now in this instance, our friend Earth WD is in its prime and looks to stay that way. But oh no! "RF-based" attackers are a real threat to it. But rather than going for a straight counter to Earth WD, the "Pacemakers" are already a step ahead and already have counters to the potential, new "Primary archetype". The threat of RF based attackers are neutralised somewhat and Earth WD remains the "Primary archetype" due the the psycological impact of the "Defence" Beyblade. Though the "Defence" beyblade can never reach the position of "Primary Archetype" due to its inability to defeat the fundamental Earth WD combo, its exertion of pressure is enough to deter RF based attackers. Despite the decline in use of the pressure exerter, the perceived threat is still there for RF based attackers. Thus Earth WD is allowed to thrive.230 arrives. It takes over. It is the component in the Primary Archetype engine. Earth WD is pushed into obscurity now that Hell/Flame/Basalt 230CS/D variants, HellBD145WD variants and our RF based combos have good match-ups against it. The focus is now on what can counter MF-H Basalt 230CS without comprimising its match-ups against the secondary archetypes that are HellBD145WD variants and RF Attackers.