World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc.
Beyblade Random Thoughts - Printable Version

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RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - Tri - Mar. 06, 2014

(Mar. 06, 2014  4:21 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Hasbro does that with every Bottom they produce, so it definitely isn't unusual.

I wouldn't neccisarily say every bottom, especially since that's not really a fact. We should definitely look into it more.

And yeah guys I did say:

I Wrote:This isn't the first time Hasbro has done something like this.

Tongue_out

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - [)ragon - Mar. 06, 2014

I think it is literally every Bottom (perhaps it wasn't done with some of the older Metal Fusion tops, but I've never seen a Hasbro Bottom without the extra plastic reinforcement) with those little tabs.

I very well could've missed some, but yah, I've actually never seen one without it haha.

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - Annoying-Fork - Mar. 06, 2014

The more closed structure of the tip is actually ideal to the circumference, and has a good friction that is from my experience less prone to wear and tear from customization. I've noticed ES -feels- (not plays) more stable in the hand versus an unfortified (pre-Metal-Fury) performance tip.

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - Tri - Mar. 06, 2014

Going through a bunch of my stuff, a majority of the Hasbro stuff has that reinforcement. It definitely seems like something worth mentioning in Beywiki for most of the stuff. And definitely so if it were to ch age performance somehow which I've only seen with RF and R2F with/without the bar.

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - ashton pinto - Mar. 06, 2014

Sometimes i prefer Hasbro tips, because of this Grin

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - Annoying-Fork - Mar. 06, 2014

They certainly take the abuse of habitual part swapping a lot better, I lost my incredibly rare black semi-flat from Rock Aquario. Unhappy it just snapped in the weirdest pattern yet....

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - Angry Face - Mar. 06, 2014

Hasbro's been reinforcing their Bottoms since the second wave of Metal Masters, and the reinforcements have never shown any sign of significantly affecting performance (asides from those instances of R²F bars). Even with those slightly reinforced areas, at least in the case of Shogun Steel, their Bottoms have actually weighed less than Takara-Tomy and Sonokong's.

This has been the case for most, if not all, of the plastic parts in Hasbro's Shogun Steel line released so far...

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - [)ragon - Mar. 07, 2014

I've got something really important to show you guys.

Apparently, Wyvang has two different molds. The point of identification is in the feather designs, opposite the jaw on the wheel's edge:

Spoiler (Click to View)

As you can see, Mold 1 (right) has a thicker, more closely packed feather, whereas mold 2 (left) has a feather with thinner, more protrusive "lumps."

Here's a closer look:

Spoiler (Click to View)

As you can see, the larger "lump" on the right hand side of the feather design from Mold 1 is considerably wider at its top than the lump from Mold 2. I don't have any super accurate measuring devices, but with a ruler and a little bit of caution, I found the length to be about 3 mm to 4 mm, with Mold 1's lump 1mm wider.

On top of that, each mold's feather seems to protrude at different lengths:

Spoiler (Click to View)

Mold 1's feather seems to be more tightly merged with the rest of the Chrome Wheel, while Mold 2's seems to be much more protrusive.

I don't have the best camera, and unfortunately, I don't have weights to identify any potential mass difference, but from looking at the parts themselves and measuring them, I'm absolutely convinced that there is a mold difference present here.

Now, the question is: are there performance differences between molds, and, if so, how drastic are they? Well, as Wyvang wears very quickly (especially Mold 2 I've noticed), and the fact I lack time right now, I can't post any formal testing, but I have done plenty of informal testing in the past (I've suspected something was up for a long time, seeing different Wyvangs of more or less the same condition pull completely different numbers in immediate succession, but I wasn't absolutely convinced until a couple weeks ago when I got a second Mold 2 and began testing), so I'll share my experience/estimates.

Mold 2 is definitely more aggressive. Without a doubt. It's got higher smash, and higher recoil than Mold 1. Mold 1 is more passive (still a very aggressive wheel without a doubt, but certainly not as aggressive as Mold 2), and has noticeably lower recoil.

Wyvang Attack win rates can range anywhere From 60 - 80% against MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RDF between people with near identical Flash benchmarks, which has been observed in the past. I now believe this is due to said users testing with different molds (those numbers are actually typically representative of the results I get in testing - 60% or thereabouts with Mold 1, and around 80% with Mold 2).

Another thing this would explain, would be the testing of Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF. Ingulit and I were having conflicting results regarding Wyvang's defensive capacity. Ingulit has always gotten better results with Wyvang attack types than me (well, at least he did prior to the point I obtained a Mold 2 Wyvang), which most likely means he was testing with Mold 2, rather than the more passive Mold 1. That would mean that his Wyvang on a Defense setup, would have higher recoil than my Wyvang on the same one, which totally explains his description of the custom when he said it could "Possibly be KOed by an aggressively launched Stamina type," when was getting around 50% against Flash.

If he was using Mold 2s, as opposed to the Mold 1's I was using, his would have higher recoil, which would explain his results against Attack.

So yah, in a nutshell, Mold 1 is more passive, and gives both lower smash and lower recoil than Mold 2. Mold 2 is stunningly powerful on an Attack setup (I didn't know what Wyvang was capable of until I really started testing with a Mold 2, haha), and has higher recoil than Mold 1.

Again, a good presentation of the net difference between molds would be around a 20% gap on a 145 height Attack setup against conventional BD145 Defense, with Mold 2 netting a higher win rate.

Another question would be, is one more common than the other? Well, I don't know. I own 6 Wyvangs, and out of all of them, 4 are Mold 1s, and 2 are Mold 2s, so I would guess that Mold 2 is slightly more uncommon, but it could very well be a fluke, as only 6 wheels with a close ratio isn't much to go on.

So yah. There ya go. Unfortunately, the mold difference is pretty subtle visually (it's incredibly obvious in testing if you know what you're looking for), so you have to look closely to determine which mold you have (it's especially difficult to determine if you don't have both, since the easiest way to figure it out is to hold them up against each other).

If you only have one mold, the best way to determine which one it is, is to measure the larger lump on the feather (the one to the right). If it's about 4 millimeters, you've got yourself a Mold 1. If you get 3 millimeters, you've got a Mold 2 (I'm not sure which was actually produced first (for all we know, they may have been produced simultaneously), so I just labeled them "1" and "2" according to which one was "new" to me, haha).

If anyone has both "molds," and has time to test, some formal comparisons between them would be really cool.

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - th!nk - Mar. 07, 2014

Coach and I were looking into the possibility of two molds as we saw two distinct weight ranges, but we couldn't find where the weight was, so I'm glad someone found it!
Can't remember where we were discussing it but I would suggest going to find that - somewhere in the limited format subforum, I think, to try to confirm which mold is heavier. Pretty sure mine is mold one, and it was the heavier mold. Perhaps also why I get fairly tame results from Wyvang in right spin.

Seeing as we don't know what order they were released in, I'd suggest we stick to the same thing as we have with Dragooon thus far, going with heavy/light (IIRC the weights were pretty consistent) rather than numbering them, to prevent misinterpretation. Also yeah a 4/2 split on 6 of them isn't anything, even knowing when you bought them wouldn't help much as it hasn't been long enough for the earlier mold to pass out of stock.

Good eye, man. Now we get to the fun of figuring out which mold hasbro will use.

By the way, in future try to keep which mold is on the left/right in posts like that consistent because it can be confusing otherwise, took me a minute to realise I had the first image the wrong way around.

Also just want to say props 2 TT for releasing two different molds of a wheel only available in an expensive set, alongside making only the prize beyblade of their final random booster have a ridiculously strong version of the track and not others. 'sgrate, someone go check Girago and Balro (both late, and heavy like dragooon/wyvang).

Nothing like a lack of new releases to have people looking deeper into things and finding mold differences though is there? IIRC there used to be a thread, perhaps it could be revived, or a new one made, to move all this data into one place - I've got a document I threw together the other day with the mold differences on beywiki and that I knew of, but it's pretty rough/messy etc.

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - [)ragon - Mar. 07, 2014

Found Coach's post: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-LTD-Wyvang-Discussion?pid=1185472#pid1185472

Because of the wear of the Feathers, and the glare of the light, identifying them is really, really hard, but I'm positive the upper right-hand wheel is a "Mold 2," and that was one of the heavier ones. I really can't tell with the others, though. :\

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - th!nk - Mar. 07, 2014

Argh, mine is worn to the point I can't be sure - pretty near flat. I always found it much more passive than how wyvang was described to me, but mine is also on the heavy end of things. In the end, though, I imagine that aggression would disappear very quickly, leaving you with only the main contact point over the other side anyway (ps yay fast wearing parts in expensive sets).

Doubt it will have anything to do with it as per every time in the past bar scythe, but is there any consistency in the molding numbers on the underside?

If we cannot be absolutely sure, I say calm mold and aggressive mold, seeing as protrusion length/width would cause confusion with each other.

Oh FWIW w/ regards to Coach's pics, the little circles on the underneath of my wyvang (A1) are in the same position as those on his A3 (which is one of the light ones), while his A2's and A4 are the same as each other (the difference is that the one in the second compartment clockwise from the hole is in the centre of it rather than further clockwise). Maybe the weight difference is just chance, after all Wyvang is approaching that 32-33g weight range Takara seemed to struggle with at times, but with a mold difference spotted, it's difficult to ignore.

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - [)ragon - Mar. 07, 2014

The A# is definitely not consistent. I've got 4 calm molds of different numbers, and my aggressive molds are A2 and A3.

So yah, that's definitely not something you could identify mold by (which kinda stinks - something like that would make everything so much simpler).

I just realized something else. You know that set of results I got in the Wyvang ___145R2F thread, where I hit 75% against E230? I was using a black painted one, which is the one I just took out and identified as a mold 2 (after removing the paint with rubbing alcohol).

The fact that the feather is more protrusive, and the jaw directly under it isn't, means that an aggressive mold is actually capable of reaching farther over E230's disk than a calm mold. I actually tried it really quick, and my aggressive mold blew Revizer E230 across the room mutiple times (which the calm mold can rarely do - it happens occasionally, but connecting right is a serious problem for it).

If anyone reading this is able to identify whether or not they have both molds, and you are ready and willing to test formally, it would be completely amazing if you could do comparisons against BD145 and E230 (even if you don't have two of both, you can use Gryph/Goreim Wyvang - anything we can get will help a ton).

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - TenshouTsubasa - Mar. 08, 2014

Speaking of this, do you mean the molds form the DX sets MAY NOT be an aggresvie mold?
And where we can ID this?

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - Wombat - Mar. 08, 2014

Hey, didn't Draciel516 or Naijalak or someone get a Wyvern too? They need to check their Wyvern out to see if the mould difference is still there for Hasbro, or if it's just Mold 2.

@天翔翼 TenshouYoku: The only way (I assume) TBD and Th!nk got their Wyvangs were from the DX set. The way to identify which mould you have is by measuring it.

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - Leone19 - Mar. 08, 2014

You guys do know Hasbro's Wyvern never was released yet, right?

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - Wombat - Mar. 08, 2014

(Mar. 08, 2014  2:28 AM)Leone19 Wrote: You guys do know Hasbro's Wyvern never was released yet, right?

It was supposed to be released at the same time (Wave 3) as Zirago and Genbu, and a few people have those. I believe one of the people I mentioned earlier has one.

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - Leone19 - Mar. 08, 2014

(Mar. 08, 2014  2:30 AM)Wombat Wrote:
(Mar. 08, 2014  2:28 AM)Leone19 Wrote: You guys do know Hasbro's Wyvern never was released yet, right?

It was supposed to be released at the same time (Wave 3) as Zirago and Genbu, and a few people have those. I believe one of the people I mentioned earlier has one.

Actually, the only Beyblades shown to be released in Wave 3 were Thief Zirago, Bandit Genbu, and Samurai Pegasus.

Unless I missed something, Wyvang was one of the wheels that has not yet been released in Shogun Steel.

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - [)ragon - Mar. 08, 2014

Yah, Hasbro hasn't released Wyvang yet.

If they did, I'd already have like 3, sooooo...

I do hope they release the aggressive mold, though.

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - Kai-V - Mar. 08, 2014

Do you guys still have your boxes ? We could check for a production code or something.

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - Temporal - Mar. 08, 2014

(Mar. 08, 2014  2:37 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Yah, Hasbro hasn't released Wyvang yet.

If they did, I'd already have like 3, sooooo...

I do hope they release the aggressive mold, though.

I wonder what it'd do for the metagame if the aggro one was widely available, rather than only available through Takara-Tomy. That would be interesting. (I especially wonder for Limited.)

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - Wombat - Mar. 08, 2014

(Mar. 08, 2014  2:37 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Yah, Hasbro hasn't released Wyvang yet.

If they did, I'd already have like 3, sooooo...

I do hope they release the aggressive mold, though.

On top of the 6 you already have? That's pretty absurd, I only have one.
Have you seen Genbu/Zirago/Pegasus in your local stores? If they aren't there Wyvern shouldn't be either... I guess it's just a matter of which stores are more up to date with their stock. None of them are available in my local stores.

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - [)ragon - Mar. 08, 2014

Temporal: Well, it's not just the aggressive one that shames every other competitive Attack wheel in the format. Even the "calm" mold is a ravaging, bone-crushing tank on a competitive Attack setup.

But yah, the aggressive mold is crazy (actually really kinda freaky to be honest - something that literally knocks aside a 75 + gram, circular-wheeled Defense type on a thick rubber Defense Bottom is kinda scary to watch; against something like that, *insert extremely low recoil top-tier defensive wheel here* BD145RF is your only chance at actually surviving), to the point where, if Hasbro released it... yah. We'd see a lot more anti attack/RF Defense show up, I can tell ya that.

Defense needs a bit of help right now, LOL.

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - Leone19 - Mar. 08, 2014

(Mar. 08, 2014  3:54 AM)Wombat Wrote:
(Mar. 08, 2014  2:37 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Yah, Hasbro hasn't released Wyvang yet.

If they did, I'd already have like 3, sooooo...

I do hope they release the aggressive mold, though.

On top of the 6 you already have? That's pretty absurd, I only have one.
Have you seen Genbu/Zirago/Pegasus in your local stores? If they aren't there Wyvern shouldn't be either... I guess it's just a matter of which stores are more up to date with their stock. None of them are available in my local stores.

Wyvern wouldn't be there anyways, again- Hasbro has not confirmed, or even acknowledged it's release yet.

As of now, no more Shogun Steel releases are confirmed, but they are expected.

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - [)ragon - Mar. 08, 2014

(Mar. 08, 2014  3:54 AM)Wombat Wrote:
(Mar. 08, 2014  2:37 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Yah, Hasbro hasn't released Wyvang yet.

If they did, I'd already have like 3, sooooo...

I do hope they release the aggressive mold, though.

On top of the 6 you already have? That's pretty absurd, I only have one.
Have you seen Genbu/Zirago/Pegasus in your local stores? If they aren't there Wyvern shouldn't be either... I guess it's just a matter of which stores are more up to date with their stock. None of them are available in my local stores.

3 of those six are worn to uselessness (I was able to determine their mold by closely examining the underside of the feather, seeing as you can still identify which are more/less protrusive if you have good examples to compare to), and Wyvang wares reeeeeeaaaallly fast, so having 4 or 5 mint ones at your disposal isn't a bad idea if you can afford it, since it's essential testing material.

I have seen 1 Genbull, but that's it from wave 3 (and I had to to drive all the way into Raleigh to find even that).

RE: Beyblade Random Thoughts - DrPepsidew - Mar. 08, 2014

Kaboom!!! just bought Genbu, Zirago, and two Pegasus XD