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+--- Thread: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? (/Thread-Should-There-Be-A-Judges-Quiz)
Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - Common Pickle - Jul. 15, 2018
Is it time that the WBO makes a Judges Quiz? By reading the "Judging A Match" section in the Organizers quiz most people can then judge in a tournament if asked by the organizer but what if the judge has no idea how to judge a match even after they read the section. As far as it goes for WBO Organizers, WBO Play Contributors, WBO Moderators, and the WBO Committee, they should be able to judge regarless because they have they have most likely, judged in a match before, so should they're be a judges quiz for new judges? What does everyone else think
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - Frostic Fox - Jul. 15, 2018
I like the idea of a judge's quiz, but perhaps it should be the responsibility of the organizer to test the knowledge of their judges? (Sans if the other person is also an organizer since they've proven their knowledge and understanding.)
If a person who would like to judge has a question, they could ask here or their organizer.
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - GOD CHIPS - Jul. 15, 2018
If there will be a JUDGE then there should be LAWYER ( Like if you Like this )
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - Adarsh Abhinav - Jul. 15, 2018
(Jul. 15, 2018 3:37 PM)GOD CHIPS Wrote: If there will be a JUDGE then there should be LAWYER ( Like if you Like this )
No need, No PUNS____
Judge can be selected by Organizers easily, then why extra fuss?
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - Suhasini - Jul. 15, 2018
(Jul. 15, 2018 3:45 PM)Adarsh Abhinav Wrote:Umm. A question, how does an organiser select a judge? Because he/she knows him/her right? Maybe this quiz will give fair opportunities to those who are new but the know the rules pretty well?(Jul. 15, 2018 3:37 PM)GOD CHIPS Wrote: If there will be a JUDGE then there should be LAWYER ( Like if you Like this )
No need, No PUNS____
Judge can be selected by Organizers easily, then why extra fuss?
One thing, this quiz should be tougher than the Organiser's quiz.
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - Frostic Fox - Jul. 15, 2018
(Jul. 15, 2018 3:45 PM)Adarsh Abhinav Wrote: Judge can be selected by Organizers easily, then why extra fuss?
It's not a matter of having people apply to be a judge, but to check the knowledge of a judge just like the organizer's knowledge gets checked. It's not good to assume people know the right thing to do just because they say so, that's why there's an organizer's quiz to begin with.
An example of this is how someone brought up a judge in a recent tournament let someone fight with a bare 12, and if that's true, then the judge just wasn't knowledgeable enough about the rules to do their job properly.
But perhaps the organizer can simply talk to the judge about it themselves rather than make an official WBO quiz that the WBO grades.
(Jul. 15, 2018 3:54 PM)Suhasini Wrote: Umm. A question, how does an organiser select a judge? Because he/she knows him/her right? Maybe this quiz will give fair opportunities to those who are new but the know the rules pretty well?
One thing, this quiz should be tougher than the Organiser's quiz.
Not sure how making a quiz would do that? You're asking for a whole different system, I think, than just a quiz would do.
I don't think the judge's quiz should or even could really be tougher, as the organizer would already be tested to be knowledgeable enough to judge.
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - Adarsh Abhinav - Jul. 15, 2018
(Jul. 15, 2018 3:56 PM)Frostic Fox Wrote:HMPH,(Jul. 15, 2018 3:45 PM)Adarsh Abhinav Wrote: Judge can be selected by Organizers easily, then why extra fuss?
It's not a matter of having people apply to be a judge, but to check the knowledge of a judge just like the organizer's knowledge gets checked. It's not good to assume people know the right thing to do just because they say so, that's why there's an organizer's quiz to begin with.
An example of this is how someone brought up a judge in a recent tournament let someone fight with a bare 12, and if that's true, then the judge just wasn't knowledgeable enough about the rules to do their job properly.
But perhaps the organizer can simply talk to the judge about it themselves rather than make an official WBO quiz that the WBO grades.
I guess the organizer should be aware that the judges are updated to the latest rule, if anyway, the quiz for judges is made, that will make this more Reliable, but at the same time Time taking too.
We see, it takes a really long time for a organizer's quiz to be reviewed, and judges will be more than organizers at any cost
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - Frostic Fox - Jul. 15, 2018
(Jul. 15, 2018 4:02 PM)Adarsh Abhinav Wrote: HMPH,
I guess the organizer should be aware that the judges are updated to the latest rule, if anyway, the quiz for judges is made, that will make this more Reliable, but at the same time Time taking too.
We see, it takes a really long time for a organizer's quiz to be reviewed, and judges will be more than organizers at any cost
Yeah, keeping it the organizer's responsibility rather than adding more WBO quizzes to grade sounds fine for me. The organizer's guide already says it:
Quote:You may also appoint other judges to assist you, which will be necessary if you are participating in your tournament. Appointed judges must fully understand the rules of play outlined in the format’s rulebook and the judging guidelines listed below:
Emphasis added by me.
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - Suhasini - Jul. 15, 2018
(Jul. 15, 2018 3:56 PM)Frostic Fox Wrote:Oh you got me wrong. The organisers are already judges, aren't they? They already have the knowledge of a jugde, agreed. This judge quiz could be for those who cannot become an orgainser but want to give some contribution to the community?
(Jul. 15, 2018 3:54 PM)Suhasini Wrote: Umm. A question, how does an organiser select a judge? Because he/she knows him/her right? Maybe this quiz will give fair opportunities to those who are new but the know the rules pretty well?
One thing, this quiz should be tougher than the Organiser's quiz.
Not sure how making a quiz would do that? You're asking for a whole different system, I think, than just a quiz would do.
I don't think the judge's quiz should or even could really be tougher, as the organizer would already be tested to be knowledgeable enough to judge.
I was not asking for a new system, by making the quiz tougher I meant, give special case questions
For example, in this year's Anime North Burst format,
Kei had to make a tough decision judging the final match. But he made a wise decision.
All I wanted to say was, ask questions which will use the knowledge and will depend on the understanding of the person of the rule. But yeah, other than that, totally agree to you Fox.
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - Adarsh Abhinav - Jul. 15, 2018
(Jul. 15, 2018 4:13 PM)Suhasini Wrote:Judges are Just Chosen members who know all the rules, and are honest.(Jul. 15, 2018 3:56 PM)Frostic Fox Wrote:Oh you got me wrong. The organisers are already judges, aren't they? They already have the knowledge of a jugde, agreed. This judge quiz could be for those who cannot become an oraginser but want to give some contribution to the community?
Not sure how making a quiz would do that? You're asking for a whole different system, I think, than just a quiz would do.
I don't think the judge's quiz should or even could really be tougher, as the organizer would already be tested to be knowledgeable enough to judge.
I was not asking for a new system, by making the quiz tougher I meant, give special case questions
For example, in this year's Anime North Burst format,
Kei had ti make a tough decision judging the final match. But he made a wise decision.
All I wanted to say was, ask questions which will use the knowledge and will depend on the understanding of the person of the rule. But yeah, other than that, totally agree to you Fox.
Ofcourse they are chosen by organizers
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - Frostic Fox - Jul. 15, 2018
(Jul. 15, 2018 4:13 PM)Suhasini Wrote: Oh you got me wrong. The organisers are already judges, aren't they? They already have the knowledge of a jugde, agreed. This judge quiz could be for those who cannot become an oraginser but want to give some contribution to the community?
I was not asking for a new system, by making the quiz tougher I meant, give special case questions
For example, in this year's Anime North Burst format,
Kei had ti make a tough decision judging the final match. But he made a wise decision.
All I wanted to say was, ask questions which will use the knowledge and will depend on the understanding of the person of the rule. But yeah, other than that, totally agree to you Fox.
I think organizers should be quizzed just as hard about all that though, haha. I imagine such things already come up in the organizer's quiz. So the judge's quiz would just be a subset of that bigger one.
But yeah, that's even if a separate quiz for judges is thought worth it. But it seems the organizer guidelines currently make it the responsibility of the organizer to ensure that their judges know everything--which seems fair. WBO manages/checks the organizers and the organizers manage/check the judges. Chain of command.
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - RedPanda2 - Jul. 15, 2018
no
(respectfully) there are already too many rules
and too few tournaments
the purpose of a judge in my mind is for an independant final voice, that’s it
judging is not specialized knowledge like organizing is
everyone is responsible for knowing the rules
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - ~Mana~ - Jul. 15, 2018
Pretty much echoing what people have said above; there's no inherent need to control who can judge, that's just adding an extra layer of difficulty to preparing for events, and we don't want to be encouraging that. Instead, Organisers should definitely be the ones appointing their own judges for their events; they'll know exactly how they are, if they can trust them, can personally interact with them 1-to-1 to ensure things are going smoothly etc.
Anyone who knows the rules properly can technically be a judge after all, haha. And of course, judges aren't going to know everything, even if we did approve them on a higher level. In cases like this, judges can (and should!) escalate it to a veteran judge or the organiser, or even look at the rulebook!
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - Frostic Fox - Jul. 15, 2018
(Jul. 15, 2018 7:58 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: Anyone who knows the rules properly can technically be a judge after all, haha. And of course, judges aren't going to know everything, even if we did approve them on a higher level. In cases like this, judges can (and should!) escalate it to a veteran judge or the organiser, or even look at the rulebook!
Yup, I think this addresses the concern of the original post, if judges may need help with understanding things as written.
The WBO forum itself is a resource, as is the organizer and even other judges, as you've said.
I can see where Common Pickle is coming from, however. It's a different case for a place with established tournaments and the ability to learn through participation and observation. I imagine in starting up a tournament in my area, it may take more effort on my part to figure out who is judge-worthy or help someone learn to be, but that's still something I can do on my own. Shouldn't need an independent quiz.
One shouldn't fear reaching out to others for help with learning, as a tournament is a team effort between organizer and judges. Communication is important.
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - LazerBeamz - Jul. 15, 2018
I think there definitely should be a judges quiz. If there is an organizer quiz, there should definitely be a judges quiz. Maybe even create a Judge Bit so that organizers at tournaments know who would be qualified to judge matches.
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - Ardmore Bladers - Jul. 15, 2018
(Jul. 15, 2018 11:24 PM)LazerBeamz Wrote: I think there definitely should be a judges quiz. If there is an organizer quiz, there should definitely be a judges quiz. Maybe even create a Judge Bit so that organizers at tournaments know who would be qualified to judge matches.
There Is A DJ Bit That Signifies If You Have Judged Before.
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - LazerBeamz - Jul. 15, 2018
(Jul. 15, 2018 11:39 PM)Ardmore Bladers Wrote:(Jul. 15, 2018 11:24 PM)LazerBeamz Wrote: I think there definitely should be a judges quiz. If there is an organizer quiz, there should definitely be a judges quiz. Maybe even create a Judge Bit so that organizers at tournaments know who would be qualified to judge matches.
There Is A DJ Bit That Signifies If You Have Judged Before.
Oh Cool! Didn't know that. Thanks for passing that info along.
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - ~Mana~ - Jul. 16, 2018
So let me ask; why should there be a Judge's Quiz? Let's say we introduced one, what do you hope it achieves exactly? What reassurance would it give you guys?
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - Common Pickle - Jul. 16, 2018
(Jul. 16, 2018 2:40 AM)~Mana~ Wrote: So let me ask; why should there be a Judge's Quiz? Let's say we introduced one, what do you hope it achieves exactly? What reassurance would it give you guys?
It would achieve more trustworthy judges, and reassure the Organizer that they can trust they're judges.
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - RedPanda2 - Jul. 16, 2018
(Jul. 16, 2018 1:16 PM)Common Pickle Wrote:(Jul. 16, 2018 2:40 AM)~Mana~ Wrote: So let me ask; why should there be a Judge's Quiz? Let's say we introduced one, what do you hope it achieves exactly? What reassurance would it give you guys?
It would achieve more trustworthy judges, and reassure the Organizer that they can trust they're judges.
if the organizer cannot trust a potential judge without a formal test and certification, i’d argue the organizer should not select that judge
there is pressure to have more stadiums and more judges for a faster tournament, but there must be limits
however i’ll admit, i’m not an organizer so i don’t really understand exactly what challenges they face. (you folks just ran a successful tournment, please feel free to describe any specific issues with judges)
i just think adding another bottleneck with limited actual benefit is ill-advised right now.
of course if some cheating scandal or some other irregularity was discovered, of course that would change things, but that is very unlikely given how public matches are and how everyone has access to online rules and also organizer escalation.
RE: Should There Be A Judges Quiz? - Frostic Fox - Jul. 16, 2018
(Jul. 16, 2018 1:53 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote: however i’ll admit, i’m not an organizer so i don’t really understand exactly what challenges they face. (you folks just ran a successful tournment, please feel free to describe any specific issues with judges)
(Jul. 16, 2018 1:53 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote: of course if some cheating scandal or some other irregularity was discovered, of course that would change things, but that is very unlikely given how public matches are and how everyone has access to online rules and also organizer escalation.
I agree with this very much. It seems more of a "this idea came into my head and sounds good" suggestion rather than trying to fix an existing problem. Unless there is a showing that people have issues trusting their judges, from participants and/or organizers, then there really isn't anything to improve.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I will point out that in another thread, someone said a judge let their opponent use a bare 12. I don't know how it went down, if they weren't checking beys carefully or didn't know or whatever, or even if that's true at all. But without those details to know where the weakness was, it's hard to offer a solution. (Not asking for details on the situation, the committee can manage that, I'm sure.) A quiz can't get someone to keep up-to-date with the latest rules, if that was the problem. That's an issue that "Hey, you've read the latest version of the rules, right?" would better solve--communication.
At best, I can think of spending a little more time (sentence or two) talking about organizers being responsible with their judge picks within the organizer's guide, whereas the current wording just kind of breezes through that aspect. I think that's the only change I could think to make, if I had to think of something at this point.