[LTD] MF-F Libra TH170MF - [)ragon - Dec. 21, 2014
=-=-=-=-=-= MF-F Libra TH170MF =-=-=-=-=-=
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My goodness, I haven't done one of these in 5 months! Well, let's roll.
Honestly, this one is a little difficult. This custom is definitely some form of Balance, but it works so well for me against such a wide range of combinations, I'm having trouble classifying it. At first, I was thinking Tornado Staller, but its defensive capacity is too high for that. Then I was thinking Force Smasher, but, again, its defensive capabilities (as well as its ability to stall for an impressively long period of time) are uncharacteristic of a conventional Force Smash custom. It's not an Anti-Attack custom, it's not a Destabilizer, it's not a Defense/Stamina Hybrid, or an Attack/Stamina Hybrid, or an Attack/Defense Hybrid.
This combination, as far as I can tell, can't be sub-classified; it is a true Balance custom, in the fullest sense of the word. The Libra wheel is capable of displaying qualities pertaining to Defense, Stamina, and, to a certain degree, Attack. Metal Flat has multiple possible movement patterns and behaviors, based primarily on the user's launch. It has high Stamina, impressive Attack capabilities, and serves as (surprisingly) an applicable Defensive Bottom. TH170's height changing function allows it to adapt to countless different situations. TH170 can provide aid against all three major Beyblade types.
This custom is built to act as a Tornado Staller against Defense customs, an aggressive Defender against Attack customs, and a potent Force Smasher against Stamina customs. It really does all three pretty well. Libra's Stamina long with MF's incredible stalling capabilities are more than enough to take out even the most resilient Defense combinations; Libra's Defensive Qualities, TH170's evasive height changing gimmick, and MF's quick movement, impressive grip and excellent recovery time make it a formidable opponent against Attack customs; finally, MF's aggression, TH170's height range, and Libra's aggressive, yet controllable underside make this custom an impressive Force Smasher.
All in all, there really isn't much this custom has trouble with. Lightning Attack poses a threat, but other than that it's pretty hard to beat. This is definitely one of my favorite Limited Format combinations to date.
MF-F: This part really serves no purpose, haha. I just happened to have a clear one that looked really, really cool on Libra, and I did all my testing with it, so I had to put it in the title.
I didn't use a Metal Face of any kind on this custom because it kind of hurts its stall time, as well as its late-game stability against Stamina combinations. This custom has great Stamina, but it isn't a pure Endurance combination; Libra's Force Smash capability is this combo's primary weapon against Stamina combinations, but you still need a certain level of Endurance to make it work. MF weighs it down a bit too much.
Libra: Libra is the part that makes this custom so dangerous. Libra is infamous for combining impressive Stamina with strong Defense and applicable Attack capabilities. Libra's underside serves as a potent weapon against Stamina customs, its Endurance is more than enough to outlast Defense combinations, and its heavy weight and low recoil help neutralize Attack customs (Libra's underside can be problematic against certain Attack types, but for a custom with this level of Stamina, it can put up a serious fight).
If you want to use this combination against Stamina customs, it is absolutely crucial that your Libra's underside contact points are in good condition. They must be sharp. If they are blunted, you'll have a very, very hard time winning consistently against competitive Stamina.
TH170: Versatility. TH170 allows this custom to position itself advantageously against Stamina types and Attack types, by aiming for or avoiding contact with Libra's underside depending on the situation. This custom would not be nearly as versatile without TH170.
MF: MF is an amazing Bottom; high Stamina, formidable aggression, and impressive Defensive qualities. Metal Flat is really the only Bottom that can pull off a setup like this; nothing else can provide recoil handling, aggression, and high Stamina simultaneously like MF can.
Stall against Defense types. So far as I've seen, there really is no legitimate Defense combination that has the Endurance to outlast this thing. It should be an easy win.
Against Stamina types, you should bank; if you can land a solid hit early on, you're almost guaranteed to win by OS. KOing is also not actually that difficult, especially if your Libra is new and the underside hasn't suffered much wear. Always remember to position TH170 so that Libra's underside is making contact with the upper edge of your opponent's Wheel.
A lot of the time, victory against a Stamina type rides on your launch. Being able to launch MF correctly so that it moves through the center of the stadium multiple times before breaking away is an essential skill to learn when handling this combination. I'd like to say that this custom is easy to use, but to be honest, it does take a degree of skill (it's not particularly difficult to use, per say - just not particularly easy). However, if you can pull off an effective launch with relative consistency, Stamina customs should pose no threat to this combination.
Against Attack types, I would advise banking. You want to avoid contact with your opponent as much as possible (especially near the edge of the TR), and tornado stalling is not a good way to do that. Usually, 170 is the height you want to go with against Attack customs; against really short LTACs, like Lightning 85RF, you may actually want to switch to 220 to avoid Wheel-to-Wheel contact entirely.
MF-H Pegasis R145R2F vs. MF-H Earth Cancer GB145RB
Earth launched first on all launches. Prime R2F. Slightly worn RB.
Pegasis: wins, 13/20 (All KO)
Earth: wins, 7/20 (All OS)
MF-H Pegasis R145R2F win rate: 65%
MF-H Lightning L-Drago R145R2F vs. MF-H Earth Cancer GB145RB
Earth launched first on all launches. Prime R2F. Slightly worn RB.
Lightning: wins, 13/20 (All KO)
Earth: wins, 7/20 (3 KO, 4 OS)
MF-H Lightning L-Drago R145R2F win rate: 65%
Not too bad.
MF-F Libra TH170MF vs. Earth Cancer 85WD
Earth launched first on all launches.
Libra: wins, 17/20 ( 7 KO, 10 OS)
Earth: wins, 3/20 (All OS)
MF-F Libra TH170MF win rate: 85%
MF-F Libra TH220MF vs. Earth Cancer B:D
Earth launched first on all launches.
Libra: wins, 9/10 (4 KO, 5 OS)
Earth: wins, 1/10 (All KO)
MF-F Libra TH220MF win rate: 90%
MF-F Libra TH220MF vs. Scythe Cancer B:D
Scythe launched first on all launches.
Libra: wins, 11/12 (3 KO, 8 OS)
Scythe: wins, 1/12 (All KO)
MF-F Libra TH220MF win rate: 91.7%
I accidentally did a couple extra rounds for this one, but hey; 2 more won't hurt.
MF-F Libra TH170MF vs. Earth Cancer 230D
Earth launched first on all launches.
Libra: wins, 9/10 (2 KO, 7 OS)
Earth: wins, 1/10 (All OS)
MF-F Libra TH170MF win rate: 90%
This is definitely the best height to use against Earth 230. Libra did a good job of getting underneath Earth and throwing it off balance.
MF-F Libra TH170MF vs. Duo Cancer 230D
Duo launched first on all launches.
Libra: wins, 9/15 (6 KO, 3 OS)
Duo: wins, 6/15 (All OS)
MF-F Libra TH170MF win rate: 60%
This set was interesting; It was much more difficult for Libra to get a grip underneath Duo than it was to get underneath Earth; likely because Duo overhangs more, and its lower edge is a lot smoother. Anywho, Duo's light weight made landing a KO relatively easy.
After doing these rounds and coming to the conclusion that Duo's overhang was giving Libra trouble, I theorized that, since Duo was sitting low on 230 already, switching to 220 height and trying to get on top of it might prove more effective.
MF-F Libra TH220MF vs. Duo Cancer 230D
Duo launched first on all launches.
Libra: wins, 10/15 (7 KO, 3 OS)
Duo: wins, 5/15 (All OS)
MF-F Libra TH170MF win rate: 66.7%
Libra's KOs were a lot cleaner and more explosive this time around, and its out-spins were by a bit more. I think I prefer this height to 170 against Duo 230.
Overall, this thing works pretty darn effectively against Stamina customs. Again, you may have to practice your launch with Metal Flat a bit, but after that you shouldn't have much of a problem.
MF-F Libra TH170MF vs. MF-H Earth Cancer GB145RB
Earth launched first on all launches. Slightly worn RB.
Libra: wins, 10/10 (1 KO, 9 OS)
Earth: wins, 0/10
MF-F Libra TH170MF win rate: 100%
Just thought I'd throw this in there for thoroughness' sake.
MF-F Libra TH170MF vs. MF-H Pegasis R145R2F
Libra launched first on all launches. Prime R2F
Libra: wins, 15/20 (5 KO, 10 OS)
Pegasis: wins, 5/20 (All KO)
MF-F Libra TH170MF win rate: 75%
Woah... That was pretty crazy.
Just to clarify, I was launching Pegasis as flippin' hard as I could, but somehow, Libra always managed to stay in the stadium. I was actually really surprised.
MF-F Libra TH170MF vs. MF-H Pegasis CH120R2F
Libra launched first on all launches. Prime R2F
Libra: wins, 14/20 (6 KO, 8 OS)
Pegasis: wins, 6/20 (All KO)
MF-F Libra TH170MF win rate: 70%
CH120 worked a little bit better, but surprisingly, Libra still managed to pull off a 70% win rate. At this height, Pegasis was making contact with Libra's underside pretty frequently, but Metal Flat absolutely refused to go over the TR. It was actually pretty incredible to watch.
MF-F Libra TH170MF vs. MF-H Omega Horuseus CH120R2F
Libra launched first on all launches. Prime R2F
Libra: wins, 12/20 (5 KO, 7 OS)
Omega: wins, 8/20 (All KO)
MF-F Libra TH170MF win rate: 60%
OK, this actually made me a little bit suspicious; like, maybe I was doing something wrong. Metal Flat was still working its magic, but honestly, this is Omega we're talking about here. The fact that Libra on MF did better against Omega than Earth on RB did against Pegasis while Omega was bashing into Libra's underside seems weird to me.
I've tried this test over, and I'm still getting the same results. If anybody here wants to contribute testing, confirmation of this matchup right here would be great.
Well, so far this thing doesn't seem to have all that much trouble against right-spin Attack. I'm inclined to believe this is MF's doing; it's actually got some serious, serious grip, it has really fast recovery time, great momentum, and, probably most importantly, I've noticed that it catches the Tornado Ridge incredibly well. It really seems like an amazing Defense Bottom to me at this point. I went digging and found this quote of th!nk's from the competitive list discussion:
th!nk Wrote:[Metal Flat]'s momentum+ability to catch the ridge are very useful... it is very workable for Defense in the right set up.
Not only that, but it's also really evasive; hitting a moving target is a lot more difficult than hitting a stationary Defense custom. A lot of these wins came simply because the Attack customs couldn't land more than a couple hits on Libra per round.
MF-F Libra TH170MF vs. MF-H Lightning L-Drago R145R2F
Libra launched first on all launches. Prime R2F
Libra: wins, 9/20 (5 KO, 4 OS)
Lightning: wins, 11/20 (All KO)
MF-F Libra TH170MF win rate: 45%
Lightning definitely had an edge over Libra that Pegasis and Omega didn't. Getting away from Lightning was much more difficult for Libra when they were rotating in opposite directions (not only that, but Lightning's slopes did some serious damage to Libra's lower edge). Despite that, Libra still put up a decent fight.
MF-F Libra TH170MF vs. MF-H Lightning L-Drago CH120R2F
Libra launched first on all launches. Prime R2F
Libra: wins, 8/20 (3 KO, 5 OS)
Lightning: wins, 12/20 (All KO)
MF-F Libra TH170MF win rate: 40%
This is definitely the Attack custom to use against this thing. Lightning was at a great height to get right under Libra and shovel it out of the stadium.
MF-F Libra TH220MF vs. MF-H Lightning L-Drago 85R2F
Libra launched first on all launches. Prime R2F
Libra: wins, 9/10 (All OS)
Lightning: wins, 1/10 (All KO)
MF-F Libra TH170MF win rate: 90%
Lightning was able to make contact with TH170 and give Libra a good knock occasionally, but it was rarely enough to land a KO.
Overall, this thing seems to be a really effective custom against Attack types. I'm really surprised; and very, very impressed with Metal Flat. If anyone would like to post test results, Attack testing is of the utmost priority at the moment. Even after careful execution and multiple re-tests, these results still seem a little wild to me. Hopefully they'll prove accurate after further testing.
MF-F Libra TH170MF vs. MF-H Meteo L-Drago F230GCF
Libra launched first on even launches, Meteo launched first on odd.
Libra: wins, 10/10 (9 KO, 1 OS)
Meteo: wins, 0/10
MF-F Libra TH170MF win rate: 100%
Don't ask me how the heck that OS happened; I don't even remember.
MF-F Libra TH170MF vs. MF-H L-Drago Guardian F230GCF
Libra launched first on even launches, L-Drago Guardian launched first on odd.
Libra: wins, 12/15 (6 KO, 6 OS)
L-Drago Guardian: wins, 3/15 (All OS)
MF-F Libra TH170MF win rate: 80%
This thing had the worst spin-stealing capabilities of any F230 combination I have ever seen. Even when it brought Libra to a dead grind in the center of the stadium, it just couldn't OS.
MF(-H) Lightning L-Drago CH120 (RF/R2F/LRF)
CH120 Attack in general is probably your best bet against this thing, but Lightning does a far better job than any competitive right-spin Wheel as far as I've seen.
Overall, I totally love this custom. It's one of the most versatile Balance combinations I've seen so far in Limited Format. You can be sure I'll be using this in competition sometime soon.
Thanks for reading guys! Post comments, questions, and test results (especially results against Attack customs; testing against Attack is of the utmost priority at the moment)!
WARNING: Testing this custom (especially against Stamina) will wear down the underside contact points of your Libra Wheel extremely quickly. I pretty much wrecked my Libra testing this custom, actually (and broke one of my Earth Metal Wheels). The lengths I go to test for you people...
RE: [LTD] MF-F Libra TH170MF - Mitsu - Dec. 21, 2014
Pretty good results, awesome work, dude!
The tests with the low track Lightning variants did kind of surprise me; such a slight change of track height made a pretty big difference! Interesting, I'll try do do some comparison testings.
Anyhow, I'll try to conduct some testings tomorrow, possibly even throw in a video. Again, great work, Black Dragon; if only school wasn't there to get in the way of making more testing threads, haha. 
RE: [LTD] MF-F Libra TH170MF - Vamp!re - Dec. 21, 2014
@[TheBlackDragon]: Awesome man! Can you test this setup against MF-L Libra B : D and Burn Cygnus W145WD?
RE: [LTD] MF-F Libra TH170MF - [)ragon - Dec. 21, 2014
(Dec. 21, 2014 9:17 PM)Shido Wrote: Pretty good results, awesome work, dude!
The tests with the low track Lightning variants did kind of surprise me; such a slight change of track height made a pretty big difference! Interesting, I'll try do do some comparison testings.
Anyhow, I'll try to conduct some testings tomorrow, possibly even throw in a video. Again, great work, Black Dragon; if only school wasn't there to get in the way of making more testing threads, haha.
Thanks!
That would be awesome. A video would be even better, if you have the time.
Ugh, school; you have no idea how much I'm enjoying Christmas Break, haha.
Dʀᴀɢá´É´ Wrote:@[TheBlackDragon]: Awesome man! Can you test this setup against MF-L Libra B : D and Burn Cygnus W145WD?
Unfortunately, I can't do Libra vs. Libra. :\ I would test against Burn, but after seeing the results against Earth I doubt Libra would have any trouble with it.
RE: [LTD] MF-F Libra TH170MF - Wombat - Dec. 21, 2014
Well this is an interesting custom, to say the least. Could you do some tests against MF-L Burn Cygnus 85MF and MF-H L-Drago Guardian F230GCF?
My reasons are:
-85MF like you said is harder to hit because it's a moving target, and it could use its shortness to its advantage by avoiding metal on metal contact. It would come down to who has more Stamina, but since stationary Stamina doesn't seem to work this could have a shot.
-When you beat Meteo, you used 170, so you hit it from the recoily underside. I'm just curious to see how that would fare against LDG who is heavier, doesn't overhang like Meteo, and has the rubber on its underside.
I'd do these myself but I only have one MF and didn't pick up a Spark FX LDG.
RE: [LTD] MF-F Libra TH170MF - [)ragon - Dec. 21, 2014
(Dec. 21, 2014 9:55 PM)Wombat Wrote: Well this is an interesting custom, to say the least. Could you do some tests against MF-L Burn Cygnus 85MF and MF-H L-Drago Guardian F230GCF?
My reasons are:
-85MF like you said is harder to hit because it's a moving target, and it could use its shortness to its advantage by avoiding metal on metal contact. It would come down to who has more Stamina, but since stationary Stamina doesn't seem to work this could have a shot.
-When you beat Meteo, you used 170, so you hit it from the recoily underside. I'm just curious to see how that would fare against LDG who is heavier, doesn't overhang like Meteo, and has the rubber on its underside.
Excellent idea. I'll have them up soon.
RE: [LTD] MF-F Libra TH170MF - MissingNo. - Dec. 21, 2014
I don't know why, but I think maybe some 230 based defense combos can beat this tank.
RE: [LTD] MF-F Libra TH170MF - Tri - Dec. 21, 2014
Kinda curious, how much does using MF-H instead of MF-F change the stall time?
RE: [LTD] MF-F Libra TH170MF - [)ragon - Dec. 21, 2014
(Dec. 21, 2014 10:13 PM)Tri Wrote: Kinda curious, how much does using MF-H instead of MF-F change the stall time?
I couldn't give you like an exact time, but it's pretty bad. I wouldn't recommend using MF-H in any situation, really (unless you're positive you're going against an Attack custom, but at that point you should just use Libra/Scythe CH120RF or something anyway).
RE: [LTD] MF-F Libra TH170MF - Mitsu - Dec. 22, 2014
Just got some tests done MSF-H Theif Phoenic H145RF, comparing heights.
MF-F Libra TH170MF versus MSF-H Theif Phoenic H145RF
Libra Launched First all Matches • Theif Phoenic Crystal Mode Up • RF in its Prime
Libra TH170: 8/10 (5 OS, 3 KO) 80% Win Rate
Theif Phoenic: 2/10 (ALL KO) 20% Win Rate
MF-F Libra TH190MF versus MSF-H Theif Phoenic H145RF
Libra Launched First all Matches • Theif Phoenic Crystal Mode Up • RF in its Prime
Libra TH190: 7/10 (6 OS, 1 KO) 70% Win Rate
Theif Phoenic: 3/10 (ALL KO) 30% Win Rate
MF-F Libra TH1220MF versus MSF-H Theif Phoenic H145RF
Libra Launched First all Matches • Theif Phoenic Crystal Mode Up • RF in its Prime
Libra TH220: 8/10 (7 OS, 1 KO) 80% Win Rate
Theif Phoenic: 2/10 (ALL KO) 20% Win Rate
Really not much of a difference between heights these matches, whatsoever.
Libra TH170 managed to get slightly more KOs than Libra TH190 and Libra TH220, while those two got less. I do find more or less OSs or KOs than one another in this case to be kind of coincidental, though. :\
RE: [LTD] MF-F Libra TH170MF - [)ragon - Dec. 24, 2014
Results against MF-H L-Drago Guardian F230GCF added to the OP. Sorry they're a little late.
I tried to do testing vs. MF-L Burn Cygnus 85MF, but I found out that my second MF has a manufacturing flaw and the actual metal rod is sticking out from the plastic piece diagonally. I checked, and sure enough, whichever custom used the defective MF lost. :\ Honestly, it was so bad I couldn't tell you anything from the few rounds I did test. If somebody else could try the same matchup, that would be great.
Thanks Shido; glad to see somebody else is getting great results against Attack (I actually talked to Thunder Dome yesterday, and he said that he was getting impressive numbers against Attack as well).
RE: [LTD] MF-F Libra TH170MF - AerialSnack - Dec. 24, 2014
Interesting. I was finding similar results with defensive types customs with MF. MF is probably my favourite performance tip. I as well can't seem to find a custom like this (balance) that can beat Lightning L-Drago. It's attack power combined with it's life steal seems to beat most things I throw at it.
I would think some tests against anti-attack customs, some more defense customs, and Pegasis customs would be good. I can do some of these, but I don't own a TH170, though I do own lots of high tracks.
RE: [LTD] MF-F Libra TH170MF - AerialSnack - Dec. 25, 2014
And, I am back with some testing!
I used Libra 160 MF, and what I found terrifies me to my very core. I think I'm going to cry myself to sleep.
Attack
V.S. Pegasis W105 R2F
Libra: 17 (6 KO, 11 OS)
Pegasis: 3 (3 KO)
Libra Win Rate: 85%
V.S. Lightning L-Drago GB145 R2F
Libra: 17 (11 kO, 6 OS)
Lightning; 3 (1 KO, 2 OS)
Libra Win Rate: 85%
V.S. MF-H Lightning L-Drago GB145 R2F
Libra: 17 (6 KO, 11 OS)
Lightning: 3 (2 KO, 1 OS)
Libra Win Rate: 85%
Stamina
V.S. Earth Cancer W145 WD
Libra: 14 (11 KO, 3 OS)
Earth: 6 (6 OS)
Libra Win Rate: 70%
Defense
V.S. MF-H Earth Cancer 90 RSF
Libra: 20 (20 OS)
Earth: 0
Libra Win Rate: 100%
Balance
V.S. MF-H Omega Horuseus 85 CS
Libra: 17 (2 KO, 15 OS)
Omega: 3 (2 KO, 1 OS)
Libra Win Rate: 85%
I tornado stalled against both Lightning L-Dragos, Omega, and Earth 90 RSF. I banked against Pegasis and Earth W145 WD.
This combo is devastating. I can't think of anything that can beat it. My best idea was a pure stamina combo, but it still lost enough that winning a tournament match with it has a chance of 2% (I ran a simulation with the percentages). This means, that this combo can only be beaten by itself. While I applaud you for not only finding a perfectly balanced bey, and making such an amazing combo, I am afraid of what you have released into the Limited format.
I am not sure why you had so much trouble against Lightning, but mine did perfectly fine against it, as long as it was stalling. It did good banking as well, but did better stalling.
Oh, and how did you get the spoiler without it saying "Spoiler" ?
RE: [LTD] MF-F Libra TH170MF - Tri - Dec. 25, 2014
Code: [spoiler="Text here"]
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