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+--- Thread: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play (/Thread-The-Case-For-Banning-F230-From-Zero-G-Tournament-Play)
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - [)ragon - Jul. 10, 2014
(Jul. 10, 2014 7:11 PM)Leone19 Wrote: In a sense, a fair reason it was used so heavily and won, was it was used by certain players, with a certain launch, etc. It has never been an issue in that region and only seems to be one in that situation, where other players from different areas (MD, NC, etc.) seemed to be the main people winning with it- considering Sniper and Geetster used Dragoon F230, both from the same region (MD). Those (NC, MD, etc.) are the regions with the biggest issue with it, too.
Except Toronto is (or was) the only tournament region that doesn't have an issue with it. And it would seem it's something about the players there keeping it from becoming a problem, as it has been in every other region where it's been introduced (including yours, don't forget). However, this tendency obviously isn't due to a competitive solution, because as soon as a Maryland player showed up with the combo, he wrecked everyone.
Even if TO doesn't suffer from the same problem, everybody else does, and, to be perfectly honest, I believe it would be very unfair to put down a ban just because the TO players don't have issues with it. Disregarding everybody else in the world because one meta hasn't shown signs of collapsing is an irresponsible way to deal with the problem.
It doesn't matter who used it, or how they won with it. Every Beyblade custom requires a specific launch to perform at its best. I don't understand why you keep bringing up the fact that it requires a specific launch against a small number of specific customs to work as reason for refuting its ban. The launches aren't hard - they're very basic techniques that every competitive blader already knows and uses. Weak launching and aggressive launching.
This is an illegitimate argument that keeps coming up again and again. Repeating a shot-down point isn't helping anything here.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - Neo - Jul. 10, 2014
F230 makes Zero-G even more fun. I don't see why there should be a reason to ban it, really.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - Ocean - Jul. 10, 2014
Well, some people believe that it is too good and dominates every other beyblade combo. That is why they want it banned. I, myself am neutral about banning F230.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - Kei - Jul. 10, 2014
(Jul. 10, 2014 6:31 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: So, does anyone have any more thoughts on this?
I do believe F230's performance in Toronto back in May is decent confirmation of my prediction. I'd especially like to hear from Kei, after having witnessed Dragooon F230 used by MD players.
The point has never been that Toronto never uses it–we certainly do; I mean, just take a look at some BeyChannel videos–but that it hasn't been as overwhelmingly great as it seems to be for you guys. The biggest issue I can remember is that we haven't had issues with left-spin SA165BWD combos outspinning left-spin F230, while you apparently do. Nevertheless, while I haven't been thinking a lot about Zero-G since we introduced Limited, I have been thinking in the back of my mind for a while that regardless of that specific match-up I just described, maybe it's time for F230 to go simply to open the format up a bit to different options.
If we were to ban it, what would you guys guess the metagame would look like? I haven't looked through this entire thread, so if you've already done that feel free to point it out to me.
(Jul. 10, 2014 6:31 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: As far as I heard, it only lost twice out of the dozen or so times it was used, once to a Duo SA165 custom (which was Dark_Mousy's F230, which has shown some function issues recently; anyway, I think we can all agree that such an outcome is abnormal and likely due to a malfunction in one of the combinations), and the second loss was to another F230 combination. Obviously, it took first place.
So, Dragooon F230 lands in Toronto, and cleans house. I'd say that's pretty much the last straw, don't you guys think?
I don't know where you're getting that "dozen or so times" number or any of that information from, but yes, it was used a lot in GRAND BATTLE ENCORE: Zero-G. I'm pretty sure every one of my five battles against geetster99 in that tournament were right/left-spin variants of F230 versus F230 lol.
I don't know what the situation was with Dark_Mousy, but if he was using right-spin F230, he could have lost against Duo SA165 if it was using TB.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - DRAGON KING - Jul. 10, 2014
(Jul. 10, 2014 8:55 PM)Neo Wrote: F230 makes Zero-G even more fun. I don't see why there should be a reason to ban it, really.
How does a part when paired with a good blader with no consistent counters make a format more fun. Am I missing something?
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - Kaneki - Jul. 10, 2014
(Jul. 10, 2014 9:15 PM)DRAGON KING EX Wrote:(Jul. 10, 2014 8:55 PM)Neo Wrote: F230 makes Zero-G even more fun. I don't see why there should be a reason to ban it, really.
How does a part when paired with a good blader with no consistent counters make a format more fun. Am I missing something?
It gives you more of a challenge. Build up more skills for a better chance next time. Make rivals to come to the next tournament for revenge.
F230 is beatable you know. I'm currently not up for banning F230. I think if it's a part made by Takara Tomy and legal, there's no problem.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - RagerBlade - Jul. 10, 2014
(Jul. 10, 2014 9:31 PM)Ryûzaki Wrote:It's too difficult to beat which really annoys people. People can place just from it. Also what combos beat it?(Jul. 10, 2014 9:15 PM)DRAGON KING EX Wrote:(Jul. 10, 2014 8:55 PM)Neo Wrote: F230 makes Zero-G even more fun. I don't see why there should be a reason to ban it, really.
How does a part when paired with a good blader with no consistent counters make a format more fun. Am I missing something?
It gives you more of a challenge. Build up more skills for a better chance next time. Make rivals to come to the next tournament for revenge.
F230 is beatable you know. I'm currently not up for banning F230. I think if it's a part made by Takara Tomy and legal, there's no problem.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - Dual - Jul. 10, 2014
(Jul. 10, 2014 9:31 PM)Ryûzaki Wrote:Libra and Basalt say hello.(Jul. 10, 2014 9:15 PM)DRAGON KING EX Wrote:(Jul. 10, 2014 8:55 PM)Neo Wrote: F230 makes Zero-G even more fun. I don't see why there should be a reason to ban it, really.
How does a part when paired with a good blader with no consistent counters make a format more fun. Am I missing something?
It gives you more of a challenge. Build up more skills for a better chance next time. Make rivals to come to the next tournament for revenge.
F230 is beatable you know. I'm currently not up for banning F230. I think if it's a part made by Takara Tomy and legal, there's no problem.
Anyway, while it is beatable, it still dominates tournaments, and combos that do beat it don't dare well against the rest of the metagame. "Will my opponent use F230 or not" is not a good basis for choosing combos, and certainly not a fun tournament strategy.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - Kaneki - Jul. 10, 2014
(Jul. 10, 2014 9:32 PM)Lord Wrote:You're telling me, if a 3 year old played a 22 year old, he's guaranteed 1st place ? I don't think so.(Jul. 10, 2014 9:31 PM)Ryûzaki Wrote:It's too difficult to beat which really annoys people. People can place just from it. Also what combos beat it?(Jul. 10, 2014 9:15 PM)DRAGON KING EX Wrote: How does a part when paired with a good blader with no consistent counters make a format more fun. Am I missing something?
It gives you more of a challenge. Build up more skills for a better chance next time. Make rivals to come to the next tournament for revenge.
F230 is beatable you know. I'm currently not up for banning F230. I think if it's a part made by Takara Tomy and legal, there's no problem.
We already have 1 combination I believe. I also think they are many more, we just need testers to try. I know how testing is hard, though.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - Dual - Jul. 10, 2014
There have been cases where inexperienced bladers swept tournaments full of veterans. Not quite as exaggerated as your example, but still...
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - 6 God - Jul. 10, 2014
Libra and Basalt don't beat F230 combos... if that's what you were saying.
IMO, I think it should be banned, even though I've never battled in a Zero-G tournament, I have in Standard and it's kind of a pain.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - RagerBlade - Jul. 10, 2014
(Jul. 10, 2014 9:36 PM)Ryûzaki Wrote:Well that makes sense, but still these days most Bladers are experienced and know how to use it. So I'm up for banning it.(Jul. 10, 2014 9:32 PM)Lord Wrote:You're telling me, if a 3 year old played a 22 year old, he's guaranteed 1st place ? I don't think so.(Jul. 10, 2014 9:31 PM)Ryûzaki Wrote: It gives you more of a challenge. Build up more skills for a better chance next time. Make rivals to come to the next tournament for revenge.It's too difficult to beat which really annoys people. People can place just from it. Also what combos beat it?
F230 is beatable you know. I'm currently not up for banning F230. I think if it's a part made by Takara Tomy and legal, there's no problem.
We already have 1 combination I believe. I also think they are many more, we just need testers to try. I know how testing is hard, though.
Libra and. Basalt were up for banning.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - Dual - Jul. 10, 2014
(Jul. 10, 2014 9:38 PM)Echizen Wrote: Libra and Basalt don't beat F230 combos... if that's what you were saying.That was directed at the "if it's made by Takara Tomy and it's legal..." bit of his argument.
IMO, I think it should be banned, even though I've never battled in a Zero-G tournament, I have in Standard and it's kind of a pain.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - RagerBlade - Jul. 10, 2014
Big arguments are that it's hard to get an Orange TT F230, and that not everyone can use it properly.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - Kaneki - Jul. 10, 2014
Did Basalt ever get banned though ? I believe Libra did, but it was found out later they could of been good counters around that time.
I don't see why F230 should say goodbye.
So what if they beat veteran's ? It's not always a guaranteed win when using F230.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - Wombat - Jul. 10, 2014
(Jul. 10, 2014 9:36 PM)Ryûzaki Wrote: We already have 1 combination I believe. I also think they are many more, we just need testers to try. I know how testing is hard, though.
Too lazy to look through the thread to find it ATM, but I'm pretty sure the combo you speak of is MSF-H Revizer/Killerken/Zirago/Genbull Dragooon SA165BWD/TB, and while that apparently beats it consistently it fares poorly against anything else that's Top-Tier in Zero-G. We've also had like a year since TT stopped making new stuff, which should have been more than enough time for us to figure out how to stop F230, and we still haven't come up with anything spectacular.
(Jul. 10, 2014 9:42 PM)Ryûzaki Wrote: Did Basalt ever get banned though ? I believe Libra did, but it was found out later they could of been good counters around that time.
Basalt didn't get banned, although I think most people here believe it should have been.
Libra was so OP for its time that even the WBBA (which I believe is the official? organized play for TAKARA TOMY) acknowledged it and banned MF-H plus Libra. If the WBBA is official, this also kind of refutes the argument that "It's a part made by TT and should be legal".
The OP combo was Libra CH120RF. It was heavy and aggressive enough to KO Defense and Stamina, and Anti-Attacked Lightning to death. I'm pretty sure it was the same case with Basalt, where if you put it on (T)R145R2F it would take out everything but Basalt Defense. Hell Kerbecs BoostD145EWD could OS the Basalt defenders, but only if EWD didn't get recoil KO'ed.
EDIT: Sorry if this comes off as mean or picking on you; I'm not trying to bash you or your arguments; I'm just trying to contribute to the discussion/debate.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - 6 God - Jul. 10, 2014
(Jul. 10, 2014 9:42 PM)Ryûzaki Wrote: Did Basalt ever get banned though ? I believe Libra did, but it was found out later they could of been good counters around that time.
I don't see why F230 should say goodbye.
So what if they beat veteran's ? It's not always a guaranteed win when using F230.
Basalt wasn't banned, Libra was. Libra at first was banned with a MF in Japanese tournaments, then compltely banned in WBO sanctioned tournamnets. I'm not sure how you guys don't know that.
It has pretty much no counters honestly.
While there is a large risk with F230, with a decent player, people can use it to extreme effect. The reason the novice probably won was becuase the opponents weren't very skilled wiht launching to know how to have some chance of countering. I think there's a good chance of that being true.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - RagerBlade - Jul. 10, 2014
(Jul. 10, 2014 9:46 PM)Echizen Wrote:Basalt was never banned just considered, but I agree that at this point F230 should be banned with Dragooon in Zero-G only.(Jul. 10, 2014 9:42 PM)Ryûzaki Wrote: Did Basalt ever get banned though ? I believe Libra did, but it was found out later they could of been good counters around that time.
I don't see why F230 should say goodbye.
So what if they beat veteran's ? It's not always a guaranteed win when using F230.
Basalt was banned, Libra was. Libra at first was banned with a MF in Japanese tournaments, then compltely banned in WBO sanctioned tournamnets. I'm not sure how you guys don't know that.
It has pretty much no counters honestly.
While there is a large risk with F230, with a decent player, people can use it to extreme effect. The reason the novice probably won was becuase the opponents weren't very skilled wiht launching to know how to have some chance of countering. I think there's a good chance of that being true.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - Angry Face - Jul. 10, 2014
(Jul. 10, 2014 9:31 PM)Ryûzaki Wrote: It gives you more of a challenge. Build up more skills for a better chance next time. Make rivals to come to the next tournament for revenge.
F230 is beatable you know. I'm currently not up for banning F230. I think if it's a part made by Takara Tomy and legal, there's no problem.
If you actually played against it in a tournament, you absolutely wouldn't feel that way, especially if you lacked an F230 yourself and were constantly losing to it like the majority of us... Something doesn't have to be invincible to be unhealthy for the game (e.g. by putting off players and restricting the variety of competitively viable combos (which F230's done both of)).
(Jul. 10, 2014 9:42 PM)Ryûzaki Wrote: Did Basalt ever get banned though ? I believe Libra did, but it was found out later they could of been good counters around that time.
Committee members have acknowledged that, in retrospect, Basalt should've been banned back then. And the problem with Libra was MF Libra CH120RF because it could KO and withstand just about everything of the time. Good rubber-based defense Bottoms like RS and RSF didn't exist yet.
(Jul. 10, 2014 9:36 PM)Ryûzaki Wrote: You're telling me, if a 3 year old played a 22 year old, he's guaranteed 1st place ? I don't think so.
We already have 1 combination I believe. I also think they are many more, we just need testers to try. I know how testing is hard, though.
That's such a vague and unrealistic example... If the kid used a Dragooon Synchrome on F230CF and all of his 22-year-old opponents used Counter Gemios 85Q, he could very well win.
And are you saying one combination, which loses to opposite-spin Stamina on B:D, is sufficient? If that's the only combo that can beat F230, albeit inconsistently, doesn't that mean that F230 can beat everything else? Isn't that enough in itself to warrant a ban?
(Jul. 10, 2014 9:12 PM)Kei Wrote: If we were to ban it, what would you guys guess the metagame would look like? I haven't looked through this entire thread, so if you've already done that feel free to point it out to me.
I really think the game would open back up to more traditional Zero-G Attack types again. Maybe we could even acknowledge that there are actually four Beyblade types in Zero-G?
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - 6 God - Jul. 10, 2014
Oh whoops, I was posting too fast. Judging from how my post was worded you can see that I meant wasn't.
It's still a problem with Duo and Genbull, but it would be less of a problem with them together gone.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - Leone19 - Jul. 10, 2014
I just want to point out, I really dont enjoy that a lot of people who say to ban it, really haven't had tournament use or play with it or even used a TT Orange F230 before. It seems like a lot of people are just jumping on the bandwagon becuase popular members want it gone. F230 is not undefeatable, as Kei said- it really isn't a problem some areas, either- it isn't a problem in every single other area, either, as much as some make it to be.
Not to call anyone out or be rude, but as an example, a user posted something previosly regarding it's ban for stating it should becuase of the LAD- the user has only spent a few hours on the site and has only posted twice before, never attending events.
Personally, while I'm against its ban, I'd hope at the least that a compromise would be reached, perhaps some events would allow use, while others wouldn't (hosts choice?,etc.), maybe a "Limited" Zero-G format (by "Limited" I don't I mean no Synchroms, but some parts (F230, etc.) would be banned, but allowing Synchroms and other regular parts), or something at all, rather than get rid of a part that only really shines its brightest on one setup.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - 6 God - Jul. 10, 2014
(Jul. 10, 2014 10:43 PM)Leone19 Wrote: I just want to point out, I really dont enjoy that a lot of people who say to ban it, really haven't had tournament use or play with it or even used a TT Orange F230 before. It seems like a lot of people are just jumping on the bandwagon becuase popular members want it gone. F230 is not undefeatable, as Kei said- it really isn't a problem some areas, either- it isn't a problem in every single other area, either, as much as some make it to be.As I mentioned before some users lack the skills to use it or defeat it.
(Jul. 10, 2014 10:43 PM)Leone19 Wrote: Personally, while I'm against its ban, I'd hope at the least that a compromise would be reached, perhaps some events would allow use, while others wouldn't (hosts choice?,etc.), maybe a "Limited" Zero-G format (by "Limited" I don't I mean no Synchroms, but some parts (F230, etc.) would be banned, but allowing Synchroms and other regular parts), or something at all, rather than get rid of a part that only really shines its brightest on one setup.That's kind of unfair TBH and difficult to judge what palces should be banned.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - Leone19 - Jul. 10, 2014
(Jul. 10, 2014 10:43 PM)Leone19 Wrote: I just want to point out, I really dont enjoy that a lot of people who say to ban it, really haven't had tournament use or play with it or even used a TT Orange F230 before. It seems like a lot of people are just jumping on the bandwagon becuase popular members want it gone. F230 is not undefeatable, as Kei said- it really isn't a problem some areas, either- it isn't a problem in every single other area, either, as much as some make it to be.
Echizen Wrote:As I mentioned before some users lack the skills to use it or defeat it.
That's like saying some users can't use Sliding Shoot and use Attack Types or able to defeat Stamina Types. That can be said for any situation.
Leone19 Wrote:Personally, while I'm against its ban, I'd hope at the least that a compromise would be reached, perhaps some events would allow use, while others wouldn't (hosts choice?,etc.), maybe a "Limited" Zero-G format (by "Limited" I don't I mean no Synchroms, but some parts (F230, etc.) would be banned, but allowing Synchroms and other regular parts), or something at all, rather than get rid of a part that only really shines its brightest on one setup.
Quote:That's kind of unfair TBH and difficult to judge what palces should be banned.
Like I said, an idea and not sure what palces means, haha.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - Neo - Jul. 10, 2014
I do kinda hate the "Life after Death" F230 may cause on CF/GCF. Other then that, make a good upper smash Combo to counter it. Ex: Dragooon Gryph SA165 GCF at a height to hit under F230.
RE: The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play - Dual - Jul. 10, 2014
Leone19, I think he meant to say "pieces." Or apparently places, haha.