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+--- Thread: The Case Against F230 (/Thread-The-Case-Against-F230)
The Case Against F230 - Dark_Mousy - Oct. 27, 2013
Dark_Mousy and Theblackdragon Wrote:Hello,
This is Theblackdragon along with Dark_Mousy, and we are making a case to ban F230 combinations from Zero-G tournament play.
During the last 3 tournaments we've had here in NC (2 Zero-G, 1 BB-10), Dragooon F230 has completely dominated our events, and has so far has topped 3 or 4 times in a row. Just this past Saturday Dark_Mousy went 9/0, using Genbull Dragooon F230CF 8 out of his 9 matches, winning against left-spin sway attack multiple times, and successfully taking on multiple Dragooon SA165/B : D combinations.
So far, from our experience here, F230 is (at least in Zero-G) virtually unbeatable. Even the most popular (and only really effective) counter (same-spin Sway-Attack) will not fair well against it more than 50% of the time. Weak launching against Sway-Attack pretty much totally nullifies the sway (as we saw multiple times today alone), and, as such, the only real counters to this variation of custom are very faulty, and sometimes altogether ineffective.
Quote:
Revizer Dragooon F230CF vs. Duo Cancer SA165EWD
Beys alternated launching first. Both weak launched.
Dragooon: wins, 28/30 (All OS)
Cancer: wins, 2/30 (2 OS)
Revizer Dragooon F230CF win rate: 93.3%
Ties redone: 7
As you can see, this clearly shows the superiority of F230CF/GCF to other spin-equalizing setups. The fact that this thing can hit 93.3% against what is probably the best non-F230 spin-equalizer we have is clear evidence of how absurdly high the Life After Death is that this Track can provide. I have never once in my life seen F230 lose to an opposite-spin opponent (save another F230 combo).
Quote:Revizer Dragooon F230CF vs. Balro Dragooon SA165GF (attack mode)
Dragooon F230 launched first on all launches. Dragooon F230 weak launched.
Dragooon F230: wins, 12/20 (8 SKO, 4 OS)
Dragooon SA165: wins, 8/20 (6 SKO, 2 OS)
Revizer Dragooon F230CF win rate: 60%
These results are with Dragooon launching first, as I do not have another person to test with at the moment. In a tournament scenario, this combo does much better. I've watched it take down several Sway-Attackers of both spin directions with baffling ease.
Quote:Revizer Dragooon F230CF vs. Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD
Dragooon SA165 launched first on all launches.
Dragooon F230: wins, 10/10 (1 SKO, 9 OS)
Dragooon SA165: wins, 0/10
Revizer Dragooon F230CF win rate: 100%
Yah... this is unacceptable in my humble opinion. SA165BWD is the most difficult spin-equalizing setup to sway-KO, and from informal testing and plenty of tournament witness F230 will also completely wreck B/TB/MB/CS customs of any kind, whether it be in same or opposite spin direction.
These tests clearly show that this combo basically nullifies most (if not all) of the Zero-G metagame. These results mirror those obtained with Genbull Genbull F230CF (obviously with the spin-direction reversed), and, although Duo/Death F230CF is slightly more vulnerable to Sway-Attack, the results are the same for the most part.
Most of you are probably well informed on what's been happening on the tournament scene lately, and I would make the case that the overwhelming tournament records we have of this Track are by far enough to make a case for its illegalization without even posting formal results at all. The fact that these combos have completely shut down tournaments full of skilled, experienced bladers because so few counters (almost all of which are F230 customs themselves) are available, and none of them are anywhere near solidly effective, is enough to completely throw this Track down the pipes in my book.
In fact, reading winning combinations, excluding tournaments where nobody owns it F230 has placed first in every Zero-G tournament we've had since May.
NC probably has the most developed Zero-G metagame in the world, due to the fact that most of our competitors prefer it to standard format and the vast majority of our events are held using the Zero-G Attack-Type Stadium, and we are ready to get rid of this Track.
Overall, in Zero-G, the only way to beat F230 is to use F230. From tournament experience, if you're in with competitive bladers, you use F230, or you lose.
RE: The Case Against F230 - Nocto - Oct. 27, 2013
There seems to be a discrepancy between the case you're putting forward and the arguments used to defend it.
Your three tests, and most of your in-text examples, rely on a very specific combination, a Dragooon-dominant F230CF combination (although you mention Genbull Genbull F230CF being quite powerful as well, which would still leave a very specific Track/Bottom combination). Moreover, digging through the last ten pages of the Winning Combination thread I found that F230 always place with CF—or GCF, on occasion.
Bottom line is that, as it stands, it doesn't look like you have much of a case to ban F230 altogether; maybe F230CF/GCF, which might have been what you set out to do in the first place, and if so, I would encourage you to amend your post and title.
As for my stance on this issue, I'd rather leave it to the active community to decide what it thinks is best for its tournament scene, with a reminder that it should strive not to unnecessarily limit combination options—current or future.
RE: The Case Against F230 - Ga' - Oct. 27, 2013
Yes, I don't think that F230 by itself is necessarily broken. From the experience that I've had with my orange F230 it's very nice as a part but not incredible when with other tips. F230MB, for example, is a very interesting setup.
However, F230CF/GCF is Bane to Batman. It breaks the metagame over its knee. As a result, banning the specific part might not be the solution here but rather, as Nocto suggested, the combination of F230 and a CF-series tip.
RE: The Case Against F230 - Dark_Mousy - Oct. 27, 2013
I personally would be in favor of banning the use of F230 CF/GCF setup.
RE: The Case Against F230 - Ingulit - Oct. 27, 2013
How recent did this oppression occur? Like, has it been a dominate part for long enough for people to have tried developing novel counters yet? This reminds me a lot of the discussion about Dragooon B: D during the infacy of Zero-G, which it sounds like has since become less of a problem. I'll admit I'm just now delving into Zero-G's meta (and still don't have a darn orange F230), so I'm not mega knowledgeable on this particular issue. Are there any legit counters that don't use F230 or no?
RE: The Case Against F230 - Kei - Oct. 27, 2013
There's a difference between something that is 'broken' and something that is 'powerful'. F230 CF/GCF has problems against same spin direction opponents (more so than the limited selection of test results posted in the OP would suggest), it doesn't have much defensive power to speak of (weak launching against an Attack type isn't a good idea; you run the risk of being thrown around too much and subsequently outspun if you launch too weakly), and it isn't uncommon to self-KO with it if you aren't careful.
F230 CF/GCF is a high-risk, high-reward combination of parts. You're underestimating it's fallibility. Basically, in using F230 CF/GCF, you go into each and every battle hoping that you guessed right and are using the opposite spin direction of your opponent. If they're using a same spin direction Attack combo, even if you accept the estimation of a 50% win rate (I think it can vary wildly), you're still putting yourself in a high-risk position. And I don't like the picture being painted with regards to F230 CF/GCF versus same spin direction Stamina combos; it's highly misleading and not representative of what usually happens at tournaments. In looking at the two sets of results posted, it would seem to suggest that F230 CF/GCF is an unstoppable juggernaut of Stamina power and that nothing can ever outspin it. This is absolutely false. Contrary to what the second set of results suggests, same spin direction Stamina can and usually does defeat F230 CF/GCF. It is also mentioned that it completely wrecks B:D and TB customs; I also believe that this is false. It has never been this bad at Toronto tournaments. In fact, TB might be one of the best choices against it if you happen to choose the right spin direction. B:D too, of course. They are swayed, but rather than quickly fly out of the stadium, they–for the lack of a better term–"go with the flow", eventually outlasting F230 CF/GCF. EWD works (or maybe even W2D) too, but in those cases, you're at risk of being Sway KOed. BWD is a bit more iffy simply because it does not have the Balance that something like EWD does, but saying that it loses 100% of the time is inaccurate. It's also worth considering that results can vary in the Defense and Balance Stadiums as well (I'm assuming the tests in the OP were done in the Attack Stadium) due to their larger, more defined circular flat areas in the middle of the stadium, and of course, less exits. The larger flat areas makes it more difficult to sway an opponent, which not only makes it more difficult to KO, but more difficult to drain its Stamina by tossing it around the stadium. Finally, using F230 CF/GCF combos to counter other F230 CF/GCF combos is silly; you're again putting yourself into a high-risk/luck type of situation. There's nothing that another F230 CF/GCF combo can inherently do against another one that will give you the edge against it.
In saying this, I'm not disagreeing that maybe we should consider banning the use of F230 CF/GCF (this is the only option; anything else is a gross exaggeration of F230's power alone), just that our decision has to be much more informed and thorough than the discussion I've seen so far. Beyblade has always been, in part, a game dominated by the people who can afford the best parts/combinations. Right now, the F230 CF/GCF is one of those combinations. But just because it is powerful and just because some people don't have it, doesn't mean that we should automatically ban it. I went back through the Winning Combinations thread just now, and in 12 ZERO-G Format tournaments since earlier this year (including The Walking Bey, which hasn't been posted yet. Just trying to get a list of JesseObre's combos, but I know he used F230): 19/36 placers did so without the use of F230 CF/GCF. That's 53%. That number proves to me that F230 CF/GCF is not unbeatable and absolutely viable if you want to be successful, so we should not treat it as such. We have to be careful that we aren't banning something because it is popular or powerful rather than because it truly is 'broken'.
RE: The Case Against F230 - th!nk - Jan. 11, 2014
So uh since I've started paying attention to ZG and so on all I've heard is people trying to find a way to beat F230(G)CF and seeing it repeatedly dominate tournaments and so on. I don't even have an F230 or a ZG stadium but I really feel like this is something we need to have more of a discussion about at this point.
RE: The Case Against F230 - Dark_Mousy - Jan. 11, 2014
(Jan. 11, 2014 9:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: So uh since I've started paying attention to ZG and so on all I've heard is people trying to find a way to beat F230(G)CF and seeing it repeatedly dominate tournaments and so on. I don't even have an F230 or a ZG stadium but I really feel like this is something we need to have more of a discussion about at this point.
Personally Im all for limiting or banning it all together. The problem is that hardly anything can CONSISTENTLY beat it. YIve won 5 tournaments in the last 2-3 months primarily using this combo. TheBlackDragon & myself have battled multiple times trying ot beat F230 (G)CF, and TBH there isn't very much. Someone can go to a tournament and do very well just using this combo. It happened in Maryland not to long ago.
Quote:
MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD
Dragooon BWD launched first on all launches. Dragooon F230 launched aggressively toward the edge of the stadium.
F230: wins, 19/20 (3 OS, 16 SKO)
SA165: wins, 1/20 (1 OS)
MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF win rate: 95%
MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. Killerken Dragooon B : D
Dragooon B : D launched first on all launches. Dragooon F230 launched aggressively toward the edge of the stadium.
F230: wins, 10/10 (3 OS, 7 SKO)
B : D: wins, 0/10
MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF win rate: 100%
Every OS here was simply the Stamina combinations being swayed so violently that their spin was almost completely drained. It wasn't very hard at all really, B : D took a dive no matter how I launched, and BWD was laughably flimsy if you just launched like you would a normal Sway Attack type. Dragooon BWD/B : D does not beat Dragooon F230. I've seen it in tournaments, and I've seen it in testing.
RE: The Case Against F230 - th!nk - Feb. 15, 2014
Okay, so TheBlackDragon has posted a rather strong argument for banning F230 in Zero-G as well as a rebuttal of many counterarguments which I think everyone here should read: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-The-Case-For-Banning-F230-From-Zero-G-Tournament-Play
We really need to resolve this discussion one way or another, and this whole thing is reminding me way too much of the inaction on Basalt, but with a much more "exclusive" part, which is even worse IMO. The arguments are the same and I'm seeing what almost seems like similar complacency - don't get me wrong, I know most of you are very busy doing important things, but it's been a year since it was released (a year in which it has continued to dominate), so surely it is time for us to have a final discussion on F230 in Zero G?
RE: The Case Against F230 - Kai-V - Feb. 15, 2014
A year since it has been released, but we cannot ban a part right upon release : we have to leave some time in each region to see if the Bladers can adapt and find something better than it. So, one year is not the period in which it has been critical to ban F230.
RE: The Case Against F230 - th!nk - Feb. 15, 2014
True, I didn't mean to say we should have banned it a year ago, but I do think that there has been more than enough time to see if people could counter it or even whether it would just blow over etc by now. But I think now would be a good time to decide, especially as it seems F230 will remain in that nasty middle ground of being rare/relatively expensive to get but not so rare that it can't have a big impact on tournaments.
RE: The Case Against F230 - Ga' - Feb. 15, 2014
I'm still in support of removing F230.
At the very least you'd want to make a decision before we start hitting the big tournament season in May: leaving F230 alone could have a very serious impact upon the outcome and quality of the battles that might be seen in the near future.
RE: The Case Against F230 - Dark_Mousy - Feb. 15, 2014
(Feb. 15, 2014 5:54 PM)Ga Wrote: I'm still in support of removing F230.
At the very least you'd want to make a decision before we start hitting the big tournament season in May: leaving F230 alone could have a very serious impact upon the outcome and quality of the battles that might be seen in the near future.
Im in full agreement with you. Last year at Revolution F230 was used but wasn't dominate. This year will be different. With this being one of our biggest tournament seasons a decision needs to be made rather quickly.