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+--- Thread: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two (/Thread-LAD-vs-Precession-and-the-combination-of-the-two--61896)
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LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - [)ragon - Aug. 22, 2013
Hey guys!
I've been working on this for a while, and I have edited it a bunch and received permission from a mod to post it this time, so, enjoy!People (including myself
) Have been throwing the term LAD, for lack of a better word, around in discussions involving spin-equalizers lately. It has been used (incorrectly) to define the ability of a combo to keep from falling on its side at very low spin velocity.The term LAD means Life After Death, or the ability of a bey to continue spinning after it has fallen over. Therefore, if a tip can keep your combo standing upright for a very long time, even while it is spinning very slowly, then that's great, but you wouldn't say that it has LAD.
Beywiki Wrote:The term "Life After Death" is used to describe a Zombie's ability to continue spinning on its side after it has fallen over. If your Beyblade is still making complete rotations, it is still considered to be spinning. To have this ability, your Beyblade must be perfectly round at the points that touch the stadium floor when it falls over.
You can get a bit deeper of an understanding of the term "LAD" here.
The ability of a combination to stay relatively upright (standing up, not on its side), near the end of a match is called "high, medium or low Precession".
Precession, in this case, is basically the act of a beyblade wobbling due to gravity. Saying that a combo has "high Precession" would, in this case, indicate that it has an exceptional ability to wobble without falling over at low spin velocity.
Tips like ES and MB would have "low" Precession, due to fact that as soon as they begin to wobble, they will fall over relatively early in the match and lose via OS, as opposed to tips like EWD, which can remain wobbling until it has nearly stopped spinning.
Beyblades with a high tendency to wobble do not necessarily posses high precession. Precession, in this case, is basically referring to how long into a match a Beyblade can continue to remain upright or wobbling against an opposite-spin opponent.
Beyblades like MF-H Duo Cancer 230MB have shown extremely low win rates against opposite-spin, due to the fact that, though they wobble, they cannot continue to wobble at relatively low spin velocities. Their wobbling occurs and ends at much higher spin velocities than Bottoms like EWD/RDF/W²D/WD/BWD, rendering them useless in an opposite-spin match-up.
All the parts in a Beyblade can contribute to its level of Precession. For instance, things with a lower center of gravity than normal, like Duo and/or Death, can continue to precess (wobble) at lower speeds than things like Dragooon (which is one of the reasons they counter Dragooon so well).
Quote:Duo Cygnus B : D vs. Reviser Dragooon B : D
Beys alternated launching first.
Duo: wins, 10/10 (All OS)
Dragoon: wins, 0/10
Duo Cygnus B : D win rate: 100%
Death Cygnus B : D vs. Reviser Dragooon B : D
Beys alternated launching first.
Death: wins, 10/10 (All OS)
Dragoon: wins, 0/10
Death Cygnus B : D win rate: 100%
Things with wider weight distribution can also contribute to the Precession of a Beyblade by giving it the extra "flywheel effect", such as Tracks like TR145 and/or BD145.
Quote:Reviser Reviser 145RDF vs. Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
Beys alternated launching first. Slightly worn RDF. New EWD.
Reviser: wins, 0/10
Dragooon: wins, 10/10 (All OS)
Reviser Reviser 145RDF win rate: 0%
Reviser Reviser BD145RDF vs. Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
Beys alternated launching first. Same tips and Chrome Wheels as last test.
Reviser: wins, 10/10 (All OS)
Dragooon: wins, 0/10
Reviser Reviser BD145RDF win rate: 100%
I assure you the wins weren't due to BD145's incredibly low, yet existent LAD, because Reviser didn't even fall over during the battles when it used BD145. BD145 can also provide a lower center of gravity in addition to its wide weight distribution.
A bey's Precession also changes significantly with its height, due to the fact that a lower Track will give you a lower center of gravity.
Quote:Duo Cygnus AD145WD vs. Reviser Dragooon AD145WD
Beys alternated launching first. Both WD tips new.
Duo: wins, 10/10 (All OS)
Dragooon: wins, 0/10
Duo Cygnus AD145WD win rate: 100%
Duo Cygnus 230WD vs. Reviser Dragooon AD145WD
Beys alternated launching first. Both WD tips new.
Duo: wins, 0/10 (All OS)
Dragooon: wins, 10/10
Duo Cygnus 230WD win rate: 0%
Last, but absolutely not least in any way shape or form, the shape of the performance tip is an enormous factor in determining a combo's Precession. Short, wide tips are the best, such as RDF, EWD, WD, W²D, BWD... etc. Tips that are taller or thinner will not work. For instance, MS is tall and thin, and has absolutely terrible Precession. A good example is WD vs. D, since they are the same shape, except D is thinner.
Quote:Duo Cygnus AD145D vs. Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
New D. New WD. Beys alternated launching first.
Duo: wins, 0/10
Dragooon: wins, 10/10 (All OS)
Duo Cygnus AD145D win rate: 0%
Duo Cygnus AD145WD vs. Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
New WD. New EWD. Beys alternated launching first.
Duo: wins, 10/10
Dragooon: wins, 0/10 (All OS)
Duo Cygnus AD145WD win rate: 100%
From these tests, we see that...
1) Center of gravity
2) Weight distribution
3) Height
4) Bottom shape
All have effect on a Beyblade's precession.
However, though the difference between "Precession" and "LAD" has been defined, a combo with only high LAD, or only high Precession, will lose very badly to a combo with both high Precession and LAD.
A Beyblade can have extremely high LAD (IE Duo Cancer SA165RB), or high precession (IE Duo Cancer 160EWD), but a combo with both high LAD and precession is totally superior in an opposite-spin matchup (IE Duo Cancer SA165EWD).
Just to recap, precession is basically the point where your Beyblade begins to wobble, and how slow it can spin before it falls over. LAD is the ability of a Beyblade to continue to spin after it has fallen over. So precession happens before LAD, and both play a huge role in determining the winner of a match between Beyblades that spin in the opposite directions to each other.
One user put it very nicely here:
(Sep. 03, 2013 5:11 AM)th!nk Wrote: Toppled: At the angle the beyblade rests when it stops spinning completely.
LAD: Ability to keep rotating after having toppled.
Precession: Ability to avoid toppling at low RPM.
Poor LAD: Doesn't continue to rotate much after having toppled.
Poor Precession: Topples easily.
Thanks to Kai-V for helping a bunch with this.
Thanks for reading guys!
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - Thunder Dome - Aug. 22, 2013
This is a very well written article. I'm glad you got to pod this as it will surely help some people out. Especially helping them use the term LAD and Precession.
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - Ingulit - Aug. 22, 2013
LOVE this, fantastic article! This is phenomenal for new members (or even some veterans!) to help understand this part of custom creation. Good choice with "precession"; it's clean and makes sense. Great, great stuff bro
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - RagerBlade - Aug. 22, 2013
Perfect! Could not be any better!
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - Kujikato - Aug. 22, 2013
Well written. Very well written.
Kudos mate.
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - [)ragon - Aug. 22, 2013
Wow, thanks guys!
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - Kai Hiwatari - Aug. 22, 2013
I am so glad someone finally did this as I was getting a little irritated with some members throwing the terms around where they clearly did not know what either of them meant. It was especially annoying when a member would try to explain that A combo was better than B combo simply because it had better LAD even though they were in same spin direction and combo B was clearly the superior combo.
Great article, very nice job!
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - Draciel516 - Aug. 22, 2013
Hey look someone understands what they're talking about! 10/10, well written sir. Also,
>implying LAD in mfb
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - Tri - Aug. 22, 2013
So, this is amazing, haha. Thanks for posting this!
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - [)ragon - Aug. 22, 2013
Woah... I didn't think you guys would like it this much. XD
Hope this fixes the LAD problem for good... it's been getting a bit out of hand, IMO. :\
I'm putting in a link to ShinobuXD's zombie article in there, just to put in a bit of a deeper understanding of LAD. I think that'll help a bit.
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - Infinity Lazer - Sep. 03, 2013
thanks for posting this theblackdragon now I finally understand the differnce between LAD and Precession and I now understand what LAD is, people were confusing me and then I started confusing myslef about it I already made that mistake in Build Me A Combo #2 and someone told me just because a bey has high amounts of precession and stamina and LAD doesn't classify it as a LAD.
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - th!nk - Sep. 03, 2013
My thoughts, not necessarily arguing and I may restate things but yeah:
I imagine if there was a track that actually allowed *good* LAD/Low RPM Survival or whatever, that still let duo do its thing, that it would manage to outspin opposite spin opponents just fine (assuming they had worse survival at low RPM's).
Personally I think you've focussed far too much on wobbling - EWD for example doesn't wobble, it just spins around on its side for ages due to the design/angle of the bottom.
As for lower centre of gravity, eh. In my opinion, the reason duo and death beat Dragooon in B: D matchups is because they steal spin more efficiently, due to better weight distributions and most importantly lower recoil. While centre of gravity does play a part, based on other generations those two factors are much more important, and having Revizer Dragooon B: D/SA165EWD myself, I do not think it is all that different here.
The involvement of centre of gravity is more a component of the interaction of itself with the tip - the taller centre of gravity on 230wd means there's more force to tip the beyblade past the edge of the tip, causing it to topple.
However, as I see it, the ideal centre of gravity is not the lowest, but the most suitable for the tip itself. While I'm still working on my own understanding of LAD/Precession and what is ideal for it in MFB (eg what keeps spinning rather than scraping out like, say, the underside of duo does despite being round/what that ideal angle/amount of contact with the floor is) that at least seems to be how it is to me so far. The tip and centre of gravity of the beyblade must match well enough to provide good LAD. MS is too narrow for this to be feasible given our parts - the latter being something that should never be overlooked when writing for a reference source (eg when beywiki's article on LAD/zombies gets updated).
BD145 is primarily useful in spin stealing because of the fact it provides a low recoil surface for stealing spin more efficiently (most noticeable is left spin bd145 combos vs LTDC with RS). It's weight distribution IS important, for sure, because it's true that good stamina helps with spin stealing as you have to keep spinning when you're not making contact and a lot of properties that promote good stamina (low recoil, wide weight distribution) also promote good spin stealing (though the two do clash in terms of light weight - lighter weights mean less resistance rotationally but less stamina when you're not in contact - in plastics this is hard to see because Wide Survivor is lightweight, but between its distribution and having the lowest recoil of any weight disk it is also ideal for regular survival), but it's not all that vital - the best spin stealer base in plastics, Spiral Change Base, has pretty terrible stamina in same-spin matchups for various reasons (I suspect due to low rotational inertia), yet in opposite spin, the only way to beat it is KO or a better SCB setup - poor stamina can help but it is not so important that it cannot be compensated for - just look at dragooon B
haha.I think what we really need is a simple term for the entirety of precession and LAD and any other form of "ways to not scrape out at low RPM", because that's basically all the two are, and they are both used for that purpose. In MFB, you can separate out precession and LAD quite easily, but in plastics it comes down to choosing which part of the base/beyblade counts as "not the tip" (and seeing as in most zombies the angle is between the side of the tip and the underside, edge of the blade base, it's kinda frivolous to me but hey) - in the end, being at any angle past the edge of the main tip is generally accepted but in parts like Spiral Change Base, which has a bottom section which is basically like EWD but with a hole flat instead of the Eternal Sharp tip, it's kinda murky and annoying, but maybe I'm just not thinking about it clearly.
While the need for a distinction is inarguable when explaining how a part works, for explaining combinations and a lot of times in plastics, a single term covering the entire phenomenon of late game survival (which itself isn't really a good term for various reasons, mostly because it's a little confusing because there's a big difference between survival and what we're talking about (eg SCB's case)) would be simpler, and as I see it, a beywiki article on that term could be made with sections about LAD and Precession) as major ways of achieving good [whateverwecallit].
If we don't divide up precession any further, here are some more simple explanations of LAD and Precession as I see them currently standing:
Toppled: At the angle the beyblade rests when it stops spinning completely.
LAD: Ability to keep rotating after having toppled.
Precession: Ability to avoid toppling at low RPM.
Poor LAD: Doesn't continue to rotate much after having toppled.
Poor Precession: Topples easily.
I hope that makes sense, I'm not good with concise definitions.
Of course, because the resting angle of the beyblade can change depending on how it is hit (and of course there is the whole matter of stadium slopes which have an effect on which part of the top will be touching the stadium, but eh), it could be a little confusing in some cases, but w/e.
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - Ingulit - Sep. 03, 2013
(Sep. 03, 2013 5:11 AM)th!nk Wrote: If we don't divide up precession any further, here are some more simple explanations of LAD and Precession as I see them currently standing:
Toppled: At the angle the beyblade rests when it stops spinning completely.
LAD: Ability to keep rotating after having toppled.
Precession: Ability to avoid toppling at low RPM.
Poor LAD: Doesn't continue to rotate much after having toppled.
Poor Precession: Topples easily.
This is a fantastic summary, kind of a TL;DR-style explanation. If someone was all "What is LAD vs. Precession?" in Ask A Question, Get An Answer, posting something along these lines with a link to this thread for more detail would be really effective.
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - Kai Hiwatari - Sep. 03, 2013
That is a great way to simplify the whole "LAD vs Precession" th!nk.
Although theblackdragon's article was very informative, I feel this simplifies the terms even more.
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - diblee123 - Sep. 03, 2013
So a summary of this is:
LAD is when you keep spinning AFTER you have fallen over. Its like Revizer moving on the ground because of its ROUND shape. I hope this explains it to new members.
Precession is the ability to spin WITHOUT falling over on very low rotation.
Note: I may do a video, but I'll have to use a hasbro stadium
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - Ingulit - Sep. 03, 2013
(Sep. 03, 2013 7:52 PM)diblee123 Wrote: So a summary of this is:
LAD is when you keep spinning AFTER you have fallen over. Its like Revizer moving on the ground because of its ROUND shape. I hope this explains it to new members.
Precession is the ability to spin WITHOUT falling over on very low rotation.
Note: I may do a video, but I'll have to use a hasbro stadium
Uh, thank you for restating what th!nk said a few posts above, lol?
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - MacDuff - Sep. 04, 2013
Mind blown.
AWESOME
EPIC
INCREDIBLE
AFI'S 100 YEARS, 100 BEYBLADE ARTICLES.
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - [)ragon - Sep. 04, 2013
(Sep. 04, 2013 9:29 PM)Striker Phantom Wrote: Mind blown.
AWESOME
EPIC
INCREDIBLE
AFI'S 100 YEARS, 100 BEYBLADE ARTICLES.
Uuuuhh :\ I don't know why some of you guys are freaking out... It's just an elaborated definition/explanation of a term. XD
@th!nk: Completely agree on developing an overall term.
I just didn't know if it was appropriate to start up a discussion on something that important outside of the advanced forum...BTW, I'm gonna put your short definition in the OP. It's kinda great IMO.
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - MacDuff - Sep. 04, 2013
You should be happy people spaz...
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - DrPepsidew - Sep. 04, 2013
You should be a person avoiding spam.
I'm happy someone did this, a little late for me to be posting but y'know. Try to make it short and simple at the top of OP lol
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - MacDuff - Sep. 04, 2013
(Sep. 04, 2013 10:42 PM)DrPepsidew Wrote: You should be a person avoiding spam.
I'm happy someone did this, a little late for me to be posting but y'know. Try to make it short and simple at the top of OP lol
Were you talking to me, or theblackdragon
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - 6 God - Sep. 04, 2013
I beleive he was referring to you.
Nice read theblackdragon, informative!
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - LimiTTrickster - Sep. 04, 2013
Great article.v this should help people's lot
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - BlackdragonsFAN - Sep. 09, 2013
DUDE!!!!! I love your threads so much! THEY HELP ME BIG TIME! I am your biggest fan ever! I so wish I could meet you!
RE: LAD vs. Precession, and the combination of the two - [)ragon - Sep. 09, 2013
(Sep. 09, 2013 2:18 AM)BlackdragonsFAN Wrote: DUDE!!!!! I love your threads so much! THEY HELP ME BIG TIME! I am your biggest fan ever! I so wish I could meet you!
Ha ha ha... very funny. :\ I was at your house this summer. XD