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+---- Thread: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept (/Thread-Fusion-Fusion-Wheel-The-Revival-of-an-Old-Concept)
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Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - Ga' - Aug. 02, 2012
Oh Hasbro you and your silly renaming system.
Disclaimer: After enough testing I managed to work this out. This theory is still very experimental and therefore differing results can be pretty much guaranteed. Only constructive criticism please, no slander. If this is something that only seems to work for me for whatever reason, then I'll accept it and this thread can die. In no way am I trying to make a top-tier combo, I am simply trying to point out that Fusion has some use in the metagame today through serving the purpose of its predecessor Beyblade.
Since I received my Fusion Hades yesterday, I decided to test a bit. It sucked for defense, but because Round Shell MS was my waifu I decided to keep going. Then I remembered the greatest usage of Rubber Weight Core back during HMS: It was the ultimate Wolborg MS killer; the only guaranteed and risk-free combo capable of cleanly annihilating Wolborg MS. So why not apply a similar concept to MFB, where stamina is strong?
The most basic requirement of this idea is that Fusion must, MUST, only contact with the rubber. The metal part acts like a slightly heavier Dark with higher attack and recoil. The rubber's smooth sides and etched top, however, make for a powerful force to be reckoned with. Thus, the mode must be correct and there must be a significant difference in height. Now, I'm not talking like TH220 to 230, or even 200 to 230. I'm talking differences of around 5mm or more, like 195 to 145 or 145 to 230.
Now, while Fusion hold an advantage over Round Shell in its ability to change height and tip, the major problem with Fusion is that no one single Fusion combo can take down stamina as a whole, unlike Round Shell's massive wall of rubber. Believe me, I tried. CH120 and AD145 fail against opposing AD145, B : D (no TH170, sorry, but my B : D is a 6 minute mold) and 230 fall to opposing 230. However, when the difference in height is in the correct range and the rubber is appropriately placed, it will always be a relatively close battle which Fusion will win almost 100% of the time.
There is one major ability that a person must master to achieve the 90-100% for each combo, and that is launching straight in the center. This sounds stupid, but because stamina combos on Defense-series tips (B : D included) have a tendency to move around a lot, this can be a problem for Fusion. You don't want any angle and you want as little motion as possible. Fusion's chances of winning depend on how often it has control of the center and for how long it has it. When Fusion has control of the center of the stadium, it force the opposing stamina bey to grind against the rubber and increases the chances of the opponent going off-balance. However, the same goes for Fusion, and even using a wobble-free bottom like SWD only makes it worse.
(I'd love to post a video but I can't, so if someone understands what I'm talking about then a video recording would be greatly appreciated. Just shoot me a PM and if it's right and is good quality I'll post it here.)
So, the trick is to launch directly into the center and then quickly tap the opponent's stamina type outwards. Launch directly at the center angled slightly towards you, and pull hard but not so wild as to move the launcher. This should cause Fusion to start making a small flower pattern in the center while the opponent is either banking, running around or doing the same thing (last one is most dangerous for Fusion). If they're banking or running around, Fusion should be able to move enough eventually to tap them and force itself in the center along with the opponent surrounding it. If they do the same thing as you, then the stronger launch wins. This took me a hour to get correct, and though it seems simple getting that desired launch at usual power takes a little bit of effort.
Now, the point of these Fusion combos is to mimic Round Shell MS' purpose from the HMS line of Beyblades. The rubber on Fusion drains the spin of the opponent, preferably more so than it does to itself. This causes the bey to lose spin faster and, when combined with the rubber wall's effect, get forced down where it starts to move aggressively off-balance and eventually spin out. By employing the technique to keep Fusion in the center, just like the original Round Shell did on its Semi Flat tip, and maintaining the height differences (because Round Shell was a carping tower), Fusion acts the same way and defeats the corresponding stamina types with ease.
After enough testing, I came up with 2 successful combos:
MF-H Fusion Hades (Defense Mode) CH120WD
and
(MF-H) Fusion Hades (Balance Mode) B : D
Now, I don't have a TH170 yet, so I'd appreciate if someone tested (appropriately) TH220D against the same combos as the B : D and TH170D in Defense Mode against the CH120 combos.
Equipment:
Clear BB-10
Beylauncher R BB-32 Blue version w/ Launcher Rubber used
No Grip
Fusion shot first for 10 rounds, then switched order for next 10
Appropriate launch used for Fusion, opponents banked/straight shot
MF-H Fusion Hades (Defense Mode) CH120WD vs. Duo Uranus (Stamina Mode) 230D
Fusion: 18/20 (18 OS's)
Duo: 2/20 (2 OS's)
3 draws redone
Fusion Win %: 90%
Close battles each time. Fusion would most often throw Duo off balance because the designs on top of the rubber were enough to hit Duo and imbalance it. Duo would sometimes throw Fusion out of the center however and screw it over royally.
MF-H Fusion Hades (Defense Mode) CH145WD vs. Duo Uranus (Stamina Mode) 230D
Fusion: 19/20 (19 OS's)
Duo: 1/20 (1 OS)
2 draws redone
Fusion Win %: 95
Same as before, but less random Fusion butthurt. These battles are long and boring, so it's a good thing the Olympics Soccer Channel was actively showing the games today.
MF-H Fusion Hades (Defense Mode) CH120WD vs. Phantom Orion (Stamina Mode) 230D
Fusion: 17/20 (17 OS's)
Phantom: 3/20 (3 OS's)
6 draws redone
Fusion Win %: 85%
This was noticeably more difficult for Fusion to win. Though it just managed to win multiple times, I think this result could have easily been a large majority win for Phantom as well. The patterns underneath Phantom, as compared to the smooth bottom of Duo, created problems for Fusion when it came to staying in constant contact in the center.
MF-H Fusion Hades (Defense Mode) CH145WD vs. Phantom Orion (Stamina Mode) 230D
Fusion: 15/20 (15 OS's)
Phantom: 5/20 (4 OS's, 1 KO)
5 draws redone
Fusion Win %: 75%
I decided to count the freak KO that happened, but it probably would've been 80% in Fusion's favor. It was actually worse at 145 height lol. The patterns made more contact and threw Fusion easily out of the center, but thankfully Fusion was able to hold on often. Again, this could've easily gone either way.
Fusion Hades (Balance Mode) B : D vs. Phantom Orion (Stamina Mode) AD145WD
Fusion: 20/20 (20 OS's)
Phantom: 0/20
Fusion Win %: 100%
Woot woot utter destruction. This matchup was incredibly effective for Fusion. No interfering patterns so all that was left was protrusions that didn't affect the rubber at all. Phantom got force smashed and shut down completely, unlike the 230 matchup.
Fusion Hades (Balance Mode) B : D vs. Duo Uranus (Stamina Mode) AD145WD
Fusion: 16/20 (16 OS's)
Duo: 4/20 (4 OS's)
Fusion Win %: 80%
This acted more like the Phantom matchup. Duo did better in this version and worse in the 230 version, I don't know why yet. Duo was able to force Fusion down into its precession and then make it lose all spin, therefore winning by OS.
Again I'd really appreciate it if someone could test with TH170D in the heights and matchups requested earlier.
Make sure you read the disclaimer before you start complaining about different results. I'm personally very, very happy to see that Round Shell's unique properties in battle can be replicated, even if less effectively, in MFB.
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - slyx - Aug. 02, 2012
interesting concept!
instead of trying to go HIGHER than the opposing bey, what do you think about using it as a LTSC with the rubber up to ensure that rubber contact is always made? i.e fusion hades 85 WD
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - Ga' - Aug. 02, 2012
It works less effectively than the B : D version on Phantom and more on Duo, but the problem is that 230 (if it pops up) will royally screw it over.
I used CH120 and B : D so that it would at least have a fighting chance against any height should the matchup ever occur.
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - BillyBlast - Aug. 02, 2012
The 230D's make sense and prove that Fusion is Decent the WD's are surprising since a WD would have an advantage over D witht he extra few spins while D if it has any does not have enough to match WD. The AD145WD is interesting though So through your concept makes Fusion become Equal to top tier stamina quite interesting... Very sincen I am getting a Fusion Soon for SWD and now Fusion has a nice Use and I love Rubber
This is going to sound slightly ridiculous but can you test CH120D vs 230D so that its not just the WD giving it the boost to win?
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - Ingulit - Aug. 02, 2012
Oh ho ho, someone else is goofing around with Fusion too! I tried all of this exact same concept not too long ago, actually, a little before I started my blog (so the results weren't written down). I ended up getting sidetracked by MF-H Fusion Bull 135WD having superb stamina for some reason and didn't ever get around to testing this concept again.
I don't have any experience with HMS, so I was just going with the idea that the rubber might slow down an opponent more than metal contact. While it sort of worked in situations like you described (massive height differences), I eventually had to resign myself to realizing that the wins I was seeing with Fusion was more the result of destabilization rather than Fusion's rubber. As such, I realized I could get more success by simply changing the metal wheel on the combos I was trying (I think Death in Attack Mode was actually doing better than Fusion when put on comparable setups, actually).
What I will say, however, is that while I got positive results, I certainly wasn't seeing anything like the 90% win rates you're posting, and I did almost those exact same tests (though I was using PD; I thought the rubber absorbing hits might make up for PD's material, though I've found PD doesn't have any worse defense than WD anyway). I'll look back into it since I'd love to see Fusion be useful, though I have my doubts :\
EDIT: The lowest Fusion setup in rubber-up mode is Fusion ___ 100WD. Anything lower will scrape.
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - Ga' - Aug. 02, 2012
(Aug. 02, 2012 4:52 AM)(Billy) Wrote: The 230D's make sense and prove that Fusion is Decent the WD's are surprising since a WD would have an advantage over D witht he extra few spins while D if it has any does not have enough to match WD. The AD145WD is interesting though So through your concept makes Fusion become Equal to top tier stamina quite interesting... Very sincen I am getting a Fusion Soon for SWD and now Fusion has a nice Use and I love Rubber
This is going to sound slightly ridiculous but can you test CH120D vs 230D so that its not just the WD giving it the boost to win?
You do realize that WD doesn't have any advantage over D? D gives extra spin time but much less wobbling, which is what you want on a tall track like 230. WD gives less spin time but more wobbling, which is why it works for low- to mid-height tracks like CH120.
I wouldn't necessarily say equal, because Fusion doesn't have the best stamina for a battle on its own, but it can take down stamina types depending on which combo you use.
I'll test it, but D and WD are there for a reason.
(Aug. 02, 2012 5:05 AM)Ingulit Wrote: Oh ho ho, someone else is goofing around with Fusion too! I tried all of this exact same concept not too long ago, actually, a little before I started my blog (so the results weren't written down). I ended up getting sidetracked by MF-H Fusion Bull 135WD having superb stamina for some reason and didn't ever get around to testing this concept again.
I don't have any experience with HMS, so I was just going with the idea that the rubber might slow down an opponent more than metal contact. While it sort of worked in situations like you described (massive height differences), I eventually had to resign myself to realizing that the wins I was seeing with Fusion was more the result of destabilization rather than Fusion's rubber. As such, I realized I could get more success by simply changing the metal wheel on the combos I was trying (I think Death in Attack Mode was actually doing better than Fusion when put on comparable setups, actually).
What I will say, however, is that while I got positive results, I certainly wasn't seeing anything like the 90% win rates you're posting, and I did almost those exact same tests (though I was using PD; I thought the rubber absorbing hits might make up for PD's material, though I've found PD doesn't have any worse defense than WD anyway). I'll look back into it since I'd love to see Fusion be useful, though I have my doubts :\
EDIT: The lowest Fusion setup in rubber-up mode is Fusion ___ 100WD. Anything lower will scrape.
Actually, MF-H Fusion Hade 85RB did well as a defense combo because only the rubber hit VariAres. It scored 80% I believe, Blitz tested it in the Fusion discussion. I own a Round Shell MS myself, so I think I had the advantage in knowing what to look for based off of prior experiences.
Like I said, many of the super high win rates (especially Phantom on CH120 and Duo on B : D) could've easily gone either way, Fusion just happened to win it. It could possibly end up being 10% Fusion, 90% Phantom. I only want to expose and reintroduce the concept and usefulness of adding rubber on Fusion, not necessarily make it top-tier.
I can pretty much guarantee different results, especially since these battles were so very close.
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - JesseObre - Aug. 02, 2012
ill test this soon with TH170
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - Ingulit - Aug. 02, 2012
Oh lord don't get me wrong, I want to encourage testing on this wheel as much as possible! I realize my post came off as standoffish, and I'm sorry for that: I just wanted to say that I had tried something similar to what you're doing and I was getting different (but still positive!) results.
Who knows, maybe we'll find a custom that's competitive with Fusion (maybe)
I like that RB custom, and I don't remember reading about it in the Fusion thread; I think I need to go re-read it before I start testing some more with it.
I've got some interesting ideas for Fusion myself, so if I come up with anything I'll let you know
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - Ga' - Aug. 02, 2012
Thanks JesseObre, I'd appreciate that.
I actually requested for testing of that combo myself in like the first post of the Fusion Discussion, Ingulit.
No offense taken, and great to hear!
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - Sniper - Aug. 02, 2012
I've never found much with this combo outside being anti spin stealer. I did find it has some attack properties with MF-H Fusion ____TH170R2F(Defense mode) knocking out customs like duo BD145CS. But I found it to be inconsistent
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - Ingulit - Aug. 02, 2012
(Aug. 02, 2012 7:30 PM)Sniperâ„¢ Wrote: I've never found much with this combo outside being anti spin stealer. I did find it has some attack properties with MF-H Fusion ____TH170R2F(Defense mode) knocking out customs like duo BD145CS. But I found it to be inconsistent
Haha, I tried that too! I thought Fusion would have force smash since its underside is so bumpy in Rubber-Up mode, but alas, no such thing. I'm surprised you got KOs with it, I couldn't no matter how hard I tried O.o
It's funny to say this, but Cosmic is almost strictly better on that setup, haha!
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - SplatKirby - Aug. 06, 2012
So, Fusion Hades B : D? Sounds interesting. I'll see about using this in a local tournament and see how it goes. Although, does it need an MF-H or could I do okay without it?
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - Ingulit - Aug. 06, 2012
(Aug. 06, 2012 4:51 PM)SplatKirby Wrote: So, Fusion Hades B : D? Sounds interesting. I'll see about using this in a local tournament and see how it goes. Although, does it need an MF-H or could I do okay without it?
I've been testing that custom a lot lately and I can't get it to work. Fusion is too wide, it falls over when it's on Bearing Drive unlike other wheels. I've tried all sorts of Metal Face and Clear Wheel combinations, but so far nothing has been fruitful.
Ga, I don't really know how you're getting this to work, lol
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - SplatKirby - Aug. 06, 2012
(Aug. 06, 2012 7:43 PM)Ingulit Wrote:(Aug. 06, 2012 4:51 PM)SplatKirby Wrote: So, Fusion Hades B : D? Sounds interesting. I'll see about using this in a local tournament and see how it goes. Although, does it need an MF-H or could I do okay without it?
I've been testing that custom a lot lately and I can't get it to work. Fusion is too wide, it falls over when it's on Bearing Drive unlike other wheels. I've tried all sorts of Metal Face and Clear Wheel combinations, but so far nothing has been fruitful.
Do you think I should ask this question to Ga'Hooleone via PM? (Oh goodness, I sound like a computer.)
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - Ga' - Aug. 07, 2012
(Aug. 06, 2012 7:43 PM)Ingulit Wrote:(Aug. 06, 2012 4:51 PM)SplatKirby Wrote: So, Fusion Hades B : D? Sounds interesting. I'll see about using this in a local tournament and see how it goes. Although, does it need an MF-H or could I do okay without it?
I've been testing that custom a lot lately and I can't get it to work. Fusion is too wide, it falls over when it's on Bearing Drive unlike other wheels. I've tried all sorts of Metal Face and Clear Wheel combinations, but so far nothing has been fruitful.
Ga, I don't really know how you're getting this to work, lol
wat.
Are the battles even close? If not, what's your B : D mold? Mine is a 6 minute mold. I even went back and did a few quick battles, and every battle was very close, just like my tests. I mean, I can try for a video, but it will suck.
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - LeonTempest - Aug. 07, 2012
Not a bad concept at all. You have clearly done your homework. Excellent work Ga'
I look forward to seeing this concept researched further.
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - Cake - Aug. 07, 2012
I was going to get Fusion Hades, but I decided against it and got LDD instead... Maybe I'll get Fusion next! Once I get it, I can do some TH170 tests and such.
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - Imperial - Aug. 07, 2012
I tried MF-H Fusion Hades B:D with the launch you described, but it didn't really work so well for me. However, launching it at a slight tilt to the side of the opposing bey worked pretty well, but I couldn't perform the launch everytime. The other bey would be pushed off balance while Fusion secured a spot in the center.
It wasn't as consistent for me though, a lot of the time the opposing bey would regain balance close to the end of the battle, creating a stamina contest where Fusion would always lose.
Overall, the concept definitely works, and it's a decent combo against Stamina types.
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - Ga' - Aug. 07, 2012
(Aug. 07, 2012 5:28 PM)Imperial Wrote: I tried MF-H Fusion Hades B
It wasn't as consistent for me though, a lot of the time the opposing bey would regain balance close to the end of the battle, creating a stamina contest where Fusion would always lose.
Overall, the concept definitely works, and it's a decent combo against Stamina types.
So that launch works better on B : D? Alright, I'll try it out.
Yeah, the major problem with this idea is that it isn't as consistent as Round Shell once was.
Thanks!
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - Nexus™ - Aug. 12, 2012
@ Ga smart thinking with this concept
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - Hero II - Aug. 17, 2012
I have my own theory on this too that can open up new defensive positions for Fusion, if placed on a tip and track thats sturdy enough to withstand attacks from Flash (BD145RDF) or a track and tip sturdy enough to hold it in place (to simplify it), it can grind Stamina Types stamina down enough to out spin it. My theory is still highly experimental as well as yours and my theory needs more testing. And also, YES!!! Finally someone who understands the potential of Fusion!!!!! YAY!! LOL
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - ChrisBlader1217 - Aug. 18, 2012
Wow fusion for stamina? I really use that for defense
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - RuselBrown - Sep. 16, 2012
I have Read over Blitz's thread about his Fusion Hades Testing. But has anyone found Fusion Hades BD145MB to work well for Defense/Stamina? I have had Good/Decent result's using the combo. I also found Fusion Hades S130RSF/RS/MB to work very well also for Fusion Hades.
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - zeneo - Mar. 04, 2013
Well,I've been thinking about a concept,related to Fusion,but I wanted Fusion as a Pinch-KO-er/Pinch-Destabblizer
Can you test Fusion Hades ED145/BD145/WD145 RF/R2F?
The basic idea is the free-spinning Fusion combines with the free spinning ED145,or provides the "pinch",with all the three tracks mentioned above.
If this idea is worthless,please ignore this post,or atleast a good explaination will be well appreciated
RE: Fusion Fusion Wheel: The Revival of an Old Concept - Ingulit - Mar. 04, 2013
(Mar. 04, 2013 9:43 AM)zeneo Wrote: Well,I've been thinking about a concept,related to Fusion,but I wanted Fusion as a Pinch-KO-er/Pinch-Destabblizer
Can you test Fusion Hades ED145/BD145/WD145 RF/R2F?
The basic idea is the free-spinning Fusion combines with the free spinning ED145,or provides the "pinch",with all the three tracks mentioned above.
If this idea is worthless,please ignore this post,or atleast a good explaination will be well appreciated
Free-spinning? Fusion just has rubber, it doesn't have free-spinning parts.