+- World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. (https://worldbeyblade.org)
+-- Forum: Beyblade Discussion (https://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-Beyblade-Discussion)
+--- Forum: Beyblade General (https://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-Beyblade-General)
+--- Thread: Where is this game going? (/Thread-Where-is-this-game-going)
Where is this game going? - Yamislayer - Dec. 21, 2011
I know, I know "Another whining thread by Yamislayer"
Well yes, but please sit down for a second, and listen to the story of this old man (not really, but sounded cool, hahah)
This thread is about Italian metagame history, and some final questions i have for everyone.
What's happening to this game?
When I started playing this game in a competitive way, there were people teaching me, people beating me with ease, and when watching experts playing I used to see a high skill level I HAD TO REACH, and go even above.
It was the First-Italian-Metagame-Era.
The RF Domination Era.
Basicly, good players tested metal wheels and the various phases of rf while worning.
Combos were quite balanced, some played pre hws leo, others ray, others lightning, rock, pre hws pegasis, and so on...
Every wheel could face the opposing one. Obviously there were positive and negative matchups, but usually, the most skilled player used to win.
However, after Gravity came out, I was able to find some new launch technique which made me win a lot of tournaments even when facing the strongest italian players.
People started playing gravity, but still, it obtained good but not godlike results, as gravity could be smashed out by other wheels.
(and that's why I was able to win tournaments, with some new weak, but accurate shoot, i was able to keep myself in the stadium, winning by stealing spin and having better stamina at low rotations)
To be competitive, you had to use low attack combinations (X metal wheel, 85/90 RF).
I call that The Perseus Era.
Even in this Era you could face everything with enough skill.
After that, we got the maximum series.
At first, Kerbecs 85/90/BD145 RF gave literally no choice. you had to use hell OR bd145 somehow.
For the first time as i remember, you HAD to buy that bey to be competitive.
After that, a new friend, 230, came to us.
Obviously, our metagme was destroyed by this piece. 85/90 rf isn't that good against 230.
After this piece was made, the game started becoming too much matchup dependant. there were 145 users, beating 230 users. 230 users beating 85/90 users and finally, 85/90 users beating 145 users.
At first, skill seemed not to be enough to face a negative matchup.
After that, Basalt came out.
At first everyone noticed its great defensive properties, even if its weight was too much to handle, and something was going to happen.
Later on, I found out that basalt could really be dangerous, especially with combos once listed as competitive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb9zP7MI4sQ
Of course, we only needed to wait for the creation of basalt230cs ultra famous combo.
it was the safest choice ever. you basicly could risk using another combination that does well against it (but still not an auto win) but performs terrible against others, or just risk a mirror match.
(this is valid before customizations and way to play against it was actually functional)
So once again, you HAD to buy basalt to be competitive. even if you didn't want to play it, you had to learn how to deal with it.
so, basicly, in our first era there were really good pieces you were HIGLY RECCOMMENDED to own. but not forced.
in the perseus era, the thing is similar, except that perseus was almost a mandatory purchase.
but with hell kerbecs and basalt horogium around, the story was different.
pure skill as not enough. They were not just very powerful, they were necessary to be competitive.
After basalt horogium was out, with its massive weight, standards really changed. NO ONE even tried to play a storm or a rock metal wheel any longer. Quite obvious, they didn't want to see their combo bounced back with ease.
But guess what? 4D beyblades, we got a look at those. every single metal wheel was SUPER DUPER HEAVY, every wheel had about 40 grams in it.
Big Bang Pegasis seemed nothing special, but we could not say the same for Beat Lynx, which AT FIRST seemed the one and only definitive attack piece.
after some time, a bey capable of outspinning basalt without suffering basalt properties too much, scythe kronos was out.
If you wanted to play a tourney where basalt was really popular, your hopes were to own this beyblade.
after that, vari ares came out. Now it's considered one of if not the best metal wheel for attack, here in Italy. You have to own one.
So we needed something that could handle this, and Jade Jupiter came out with its fantastic RB, which was seen as the "Defense type rebirth"
Then, Phantom Orion surprised everyone with its stamina inredible properties, but something was not ok. Scythe Kronos, Basalt,Phantom... Circular shape, super heavy beasts. there's no way for an old earth metal wheel to handle these.
You need phantom, its outspinning i guess everything? Got your Phantom? Good!
But Hey, it seems that someone tested a new, super heavy, circular metal wheel
that, if tests results members did turn out to be the effective truth, defends great and
outspins phantom: Duo metal wheel. (did I stress enough with this circular shape and super heavy thing?
Nah...)
Every single bey released seems to be thought like "must be overpowered for what's available now"
Circular wheels and/or SUPER HEAVY wheels come out one after another.
Any of them has some gimmick or a round shape, or both (kreis cygnus,fusion hades, diablo nemesis)
I don't know if newer releases will be more balanced or not,
I only know that it's not like time ago, where you bought a new released bey, with great performance, but still deeatable by others with a bunch of skill.
What I feel like now is...
Is this game going to be a "buy the newest releases everytime you could to win"?
Look at Fusion Hades, if it happens to be necessary to be competitive, will it be useless once Diablo Nemesis is out?
(I mean, look at its weight, it's insane)
and after that will the new beyblades have a standard of 50+grams per metal wheel?
I won't be buying every single new release WHEN FORCED TO.
This is the end of the thread, luckily, I have these questions in my mind, and this is MY point of view, maybe I'm just wrong, bbut that's what I feel like when i think to this game played in a competitive way.
What about you?
(I even doubt people will be seriously reading this, but i hope at least someone does, hahah.)
RE: Where is this game going? - Dark_Mousy - Dec. 21, 2011
Personally for me when buying i think long term. I think "will this be competitive in 3 months?" Personally Im looking forward to kreis cygnus and Diablo. I would like to see the game move towards more of skill based then who has the better parts. I know the parts make a difference. But you shouldnt have to be forced to play a certain beyblade or not be competitive.
RE: Where is this game going? - Yamislayer - Dec. 21, 2011
so you basicly think the same i do, right?
let's say i'll have a tourney tomorrow. according to tests, i'd need a duo to be competitive, and maybe after diablo will be out, duo won't be so useful (it's just an example not real facts)
I'm looking to diablo too, but if i don't own a duo, i could be beaten by parts, not by the opposing player and that's quite sad in my opinion.
RE: Where is this game going? - Dark_Mousy - Dec. 21, 2011
(Dec. 21, 2011 5:28 AM)Yamislayer Wrote: so you basicly think the same i do, right?
let's say i'll have a tourney tomorrow. according to tests, i'd need a duo to be competitive, and maybe after diablo will be out, duo won't be so useful (it's just an example not real facts)
I'm looking to diablo too, but if i don't own a duo, i could be beaten by parts, not by the opposing player and that's quite sad in my opinion.
Personally i played duo in the finals of a tournament this past weekend. I fought MF Duo Aquario AD145 WD. I beat it with MF H Phantom Orion BD.
RE: Where is this game going? - smoked17 - Dec. 21, 2011
An to think that Earth Bull c145 sd was once a great combo, now all those parts are outclassed
RE: Where is this game going? - th!nk - Dec. 21, 2011
Ahhh, I love your threads!
You *could* win a tournament without Duo, a good attacker (Variares or Blitz basically)and MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170CS can kill basically every Duo combo around.
That said, I agree 100%, the constant release of overpowering new parts is not particularly healthy, and it is unfair on those who can't buy the more recent beys. Frankly, I still love your idea of a second "level" of play, with only certain non-overpowered parts allowed. I loved that suggestion, and I still do.
RE: Where is this game going? - Yamislayer - Dec. 21, 2011
the duo fact is just an example don't take it as a "law"
glad you guys like this, unfortunately i was unable to follow my last project, the competitive trials, but i wanted at least comunicate wwith you my feelings about new releases.
RE: Where is this game going? - Justaway - Dec. 21, 2011
@th!nk, Duo defense combos are very tough to beat with the attackers(your own tests prove that) and the only way out against duo is phantom(so far).
And I dont know whats wrong with the game right now but it seems that every bey which comes out outclasses the release of the one which was released before. For an instance, as Yamislayer said..Scythe killed by Vari and Blitz which in turn lost to death which was outclassed by Duo...and so on. Now again as Yamislayer said, we have more round wheels which 'may' outclass Duo and Phantom in Stamina(Kreis) and then the Diablo which looks like it will have a huge recoil. Basically, I agree with whatever was said in the OP. We are going to be defeated by parts and not skill if we dont get these beys. If you dont have Vari, you lose to Phantom. If you dont have Phantom, you lose to Duo.
In my country, most people cannot afford to get every release by TT and we look to get parts that will be for long term use. All got Hell and Basalt thinking they were best and now if someone ends up getting a Phantom, the rest will be doomed. The same cannot be said for attackers though because they are not the easiest to control so however the attack meta is evolved, people still end up using stamina-defense hybrids.
RE: Where is this game going? - Hazel - Dec. 21, 2011
The power creep kind of kicked in with the Maximum Series, and just continued to spiral out of control - especially after Basalt ended up getting banned by the WBBA. The constant need to one-up previous releases could be potentially heading down a dangerous road, but for the time being, in my eyes, it at least keeps things from getting stale.
However, on a realistic scale for tournaments and such, there will always be something to be said for variety - and there are a lot of counter-combos for the current dominating wheels(Phantom, Duo, Basalt, Vari) that succeed on their own against things other than their target, too. So, while we are teetering on the edge of something ridiculous, I think it's still pleasant, and I like being driven to buy new things - although, I am a bit materialistic...
RE: Where is this game going? - Kai-V - Dec. 21, 2011
(Dec. 21, 2011 6:40 AM)Hazel Wrote: especially after Basalt ended up getting banned by the WBBA.
Am I too tired from fatigue and studies, or do I indeed not remember that happening ?
RE: Where is this game going? - Hazel - Dec. 21, 2011
I was fairly sure it got banned for being dangerous or something. I remember reading it somewhere...
RE: Where is this game going? - Justaway - Dec. 21, 2011
I dont think it was ever banned by the WBBA. They only banned Libra one upon a time AFAIK.
If it was banned indeed then I really have no idea about it.
RE: Where is this game going? - Kai-V - Dec. 21, 2011
Try to find it, I do not remember anything like that at the moment unless it was not in the Japanese WBBA.
RE: Where is this game going? - Hazel - Dec. 21, 2011
Aha, I believe I know what it was - it was something someone mentioned a long time ago about the non-Japanese WBBA. It may have been Uwik that mentioned it, but I am not sure - regardless, I could not find it, but I -definitely- read something along those lines on the WBO at one point or another.
Nevertheless, you can simply exclude that segment from my post and still see what I was talking about, haha.
RE: Where is this game going? - Arupaeo - Dec. 21, 2011
I feel a bit like I'm reading the reverse of the Tier vs Skill thread...
My feeling is that the best bladers will always find a way to prevail - even without the "best" parts. As has been pointed out above by others, there is still a very real choice to be made in blade type that can allow a blader to win against top tier stamina blades whatever their name may be. It's called attack.
RE: Where is this game going? - Hazel - Dec. 21, 2011
I got a similar vibe from it, but it's got a lot more depth to it in a future projections sense. Much more option for discussion than "SKILL MATTERS" "TIER MATTERS" "SKILL MATTERS" "SKILL MATTERS" "SKILL MATTERS" "SKILL MATTERS".
RE: Where is this game going? - Jaygrazer - Dec. 21, 2011
The game has become more advanced, so we need more power.
More advanced+More powa=SUPA SAIYAN
No that's out of my system, anybody remember when Earth was G-Double-0-D Good?
Now stupid Diablo is coming with a whopping 62 g's bro...
And the Duo-era just started...
Yet Vari & Blitz kill...
MFB=COMPLEXITY
RE: Where is this game going? - Hazel - Dec. 21, 2011
I still long for the days of Earth being a viable choice.
Then again, Earth vs MLD... ugh. Gag me with a spoon.
RE: Where is this game going? - th!nk - Dec. 21, 2011
Sam: Actually, phantom is a pretty risky choice against Duo, on the same track, unless your phantom is a heavy one, you will get OS'd by Duo (assuming same track, different tracks would alter the result). On TH170, Duo is significantly easier to KO. TH170RDF is a bit of a hassle, but RDF's stamina isn't it's strongest point, so it can be outspun quite easily.
I'm interested to see what Diablo brings to the table. Considering Defense is quite powerful since Duo was released, Diablo might rebalance that by being heavy enough to use it's momentum to get KO's, and not have too much recoil, thanks to its weight. But then there's Fusion and Kreis.
RE: Where is this game going? - Jaygrazer - Dec. 21, 2011
Fusion will depend on the softness of the rubber.
Kreis is a whole other story, to which my above average MFB head does not comprehend. Hazel, got info on free spinny?
RE: Where is this game going? - th!nk - Dec. 21, 2011
Not really, hard rubber still absorbs more force than plastic, which in turn absorbs more than metal. The main reason R145 had so much recoil was its shape.
RE: Where is this game going? - Hazel - Dec. 21, 2011
It could go either way with a Free-Spinning MW. If it's done "right", it will be borderline Earth-Shattering in dominance, likely capable of handling the Defense and Stamina categories by itself, depending on its weight. It will also be almost entirely immune to Left-Spin countering, and weak-launching with it will also be effective against Right-Spin, to a degree.
It kind of makes everything more complicated, which is a lot of why I'm looking forward to it. If it's done right, people will have to get very inventive to stop it.
RE: Where is this game going? - Cye Kinomiya - Dec. 21, 2011
Most hobbies are like this. It's how the creators make their money.
RE: Where is this game going? - Hazel - Dec. 21, 2011
Power Creep exists in all things, yes.
Still, I can definitely see where this is coming from - recent wheels have just been ludicrous.
RE: Where is this game going? - th!nk - Dec. 21, 2011
I'mma make some bold and possibly largely unfounded predictions as to what's going to happen with the next few releases, if they all work out.
Diablo will be introduced, and will start using it's extreme weight to survive head-on collisions with other beys whilst pushing them out of the stadium. This is the one thing low-recoil defense can't protect itself against particularly well, in which case more evasive launches will be needed to win. I expect Diablo will begin to dominate, as long as we can get it to move fast enough.
Now, assuming Fusion Hades AD145SWD is tested, and has decent weight to it, and the gimmick works decently, it will be Diablo's main issue, as it should hopefully absorb more of the energy from direct hits than other beys. That said, I also think it may end up being a bit niche, depending what the same-spin rubber does for it in stamina matchups.
SWD will, as usual for anything with WD in it's name, get some sparse testing, do okay, but be a bit unclear, and then promptly be ignored because WD/D are easier to get or something. (Can we please try not to let this happen again).
Then comes Senor Kreis. I'm going to extrapolate hilariously here, but it's on 145WD so it's going to rock for defense/stamina like every other 145WD bey has. Oh also that free spinny thing which I think will be super-hyped and then people will realise it's a little overrated because of the friction and inertia or something I guess (physics isn't my strong point). That said, defensively it's going to do a lot of harm to a lot of things, though hitting it at an angle from above/below, or hitting it head on, should largely nullify it's gimmick. The latter part is particularly notable as that's what I said Diablo would be doing a lot of. So yeah, Diablo should hopefully give us a counter here, but again, direct-hits aren't easy to get.
If everything goes ideally, I'm seeing a Diablo (attack) > Kreis (Stamina/Def) > Fusion (Def) > Diablo (attack).
AND WAHEY METAGAME BASED ON THE NEWEST RELEASES!
Again, this is pretty wild prediction, and even one break in that link would drastically alter the outcome.
Other than that: One other nasty side-effect this "each release is the best release" trend is having is on customisation. Instead of getting a few meh releases giving us time to diversify, we get each new release, jam it on whatever is normal for what it looks good for, and start winning. By the time we're done testing, the next release comes out and has the relative equivalent of laser-eyes, and the cycle begins anew, still no time to diversify.
Of course, there's very little we can do about this, really. We simply can't ban all these new parts or whatever, that's just silly.
I still like the idea of a restricted second format where Lightning and Earth, (and maybe Libra), are the most conventionally powerful beys but things like Leone, Pegasus, LDrago, and co still work effectively...