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+---- Thread: Aug-14-2021: "Overly Complicated Rules" reports (/Thread-Aug-14-2021-Overly-Complicated-Rules-reports)
Aug-14-2021: "Overly Complicated Rules" reports - DeceasedCrab - Aug. 15, 2021
The following are all words I have to say about Overly Complicated Rules, a tournament that had overly complicated rules. You know I'm crazy about analyzing these events.
- This was the first tournament I'd ever run outdoors. It's not really my preference to do outdoor tournaments, but indoor tournaments aren't especially viable right now, or what I would consider safe. Thanks again to Beymaster Yami and Ardmore for judging! Thanks to all our backup judges! LJ-Blader, sorry I didn't let you judge, but I didn't know you from Maryland tournaments. Next time you can. Gratz on 3rd place!
- We had a 24 person 5 round swiss. It started going a little faster as people started leaving and we got into the proper rhythym.
- I didn't have as many judges on hand as I'm usually comfortable with, so we ran 3 beystadiums. Next time we'll run more.
- This tournament operated on the 3v3 modified format I based off of WBBA. Meaning that ties mean you just switch to the next bey, which is different than the WBBA 3v3 test they did up in Toronto. That solved a LOT of problems that normally bog down first stage.
- Because this was a 3v3 format, I knew deck boxes were going to be essential. I actually did some research on box sizes that fit modern bey combinations (some of the older TT deck boxes are Too Small) and came up with 9x3x2. Weird dimensions, for sure. I went to a couple stores to try and find boxes those size, no good. Eventually I found a place online I could order those boxes that had lids perfect for deck boxes. I went ahead and bought 50 and gave them to everyone who wanted one. I had 6 of them numbered and had separators put in (with help from my wife) and left those at the stadiums if anyone didn't want to use the free boxes I was giving them and needed to use them. It seems like people liked the boxes. They'll come in very handy for WBO deck format even if we don't do 3v3 again, and they're plain white, you can style them up however you wish.
- We had a healthy mix of newer bladers, experienced bladers, and unstoppable juggernaut bladers make it to the finals because of the variations in the format. But the finals were done in standard WBO deck format... and the ties that more or less were absent or non-blocking in the first stage made a fearful return in the finals!
- I was glad to see shota finally win a tournament, even if it was unranked. Great job! Beating Ardmore Bladers is an accomplishment, I've only done it twice. LJ-Blader did well in earning 3rd place, very solid deck build there. Congrats to everyone else who made it to the finals.
- I went 5-0 in the first round. What?!?!? I'm as surprised as you are. Most of those matches were very close. I ran the same 3 beys the entire first stage, changing the order more or less randomly with no rhyme or reason to it at all. Those beys were Dynamite Belial+F Over Drift-10, Vanish Fafnir Tapered Bearing-2, Astral Spriggan (Right) Nexus+S Quattro-0. Wait, why the heck did I have 2 on Vanish? What's wrong with me. I shoulda put 6 on there! Anyway, those beys were all reasonably good all the time. I left Quattro on the Survive tip (made of Metal, not Metal Surive) and I didn't change it once. It just worked? It just worked. It didn't burst once. For deck format, at one point I switched Bearing/Tapered onto my Dynamite, and I replaced the Astral Spriggan with my Rage Longinus 3A X'.
- I need to stop using attack types in deck format. I just need to stop. I can't attack launch worth a dang, and although I've managed to win some stellar victories back in the days of Judgement and Zwei, I clearly don't still have that skill. I either need to practice or switch to other types. I honestly could've left Astral Spriggan in my deck and made it to either 1st-3rd place. I made it to 4th. You know what? Fair. I'm happy enough with that.
- I should stop using attack types, but I'm going to buy the new Longinus anyway and continue to make this mistake.
- I'm sorry I didn't put more intentional thought into my bey order. I know, I should be the one trying to come up with a strategy behind the order decision. But I am just not a strategic person. Chaos is my strategy. Sometimes it pays off, and sometimes I eat dirt. Today it paid off reasonably well. If anyone else had strategies for bey order that led to success, I'd be interested in hearing them.
- Some bladers traveled very long distances to be there! Hey folks, I don't know about you but 2-2.5 hours in one direction is the most I'm willing to travel for tournaments. It's easy enough for me to say that because I live in a region that has a lot of tournaments, and much harder for other people to find events close by. I guess... thank you parents for being willing to travel all this distance for your bladers' hobby. That's actually kind of heartwarming. Sorry about the nightmare traffic today. But I mean, I-95 on a Saturday, you know that's gonna be a nightmare.
- I had an interesting situation where one of the parents of a participant wanted to provide a financial prize to the top 3 winners. It was... substantial. And honestly I was uncomfortable with the amount of money involved. I'm not fundamentally opposed to cash-as-prizes, but I have a preference for beys-as-prizes, and would want to discuss it with Staff before accepting. I thanked the parent for the offer but I declined. I think their blader would be very appreciative if their dad spent that money on some better beys for them.
- We had 5 out of 24 people leave the tournament prematurely! One left after round one, which makes me regret that I wasn't more clear in explaining Swiss format at the start. I was so caught up in talking about the 3v3 aspect and walking everyone through it that I forgot to talk about "Don't leave if you lose once, and don't leave without telling us!" That's on me. The other four never really gave me a reason, but they said they had to go. Two left during round 3, two left during round 4. Honestly? That's fine. I'm just glad they told me. It was HOT out there and it was very draining and I'm sorry it was so hot and draining. I do not blame parents at all for making bladers leave because it was too hot. It was really difficult conditions. I was so focused on the rain worries that I never considered that the entire tournament would be a soupy hot mess. Anyway, by WBO rules, Swiss departures are ruled as losses. In a ranked tournament, those absences would still be processed as losses. Thankfully this was unranked. It got real weird when bladers who were gone were matched up against bladers who were gone. I had to award the win to whoever left last. Really weird situation there! Anyway, you live you learn: Don't run tournaments in August Heat and Rain.
- We had a lot of people run late. I ended up stretching the end of registration all the way to 1:15, then explained the rules and started at 1:40 once I had the final bracket. Two of the three people who messaged me to say they were running late made it to the tournament. We had a much lower turnout than anticipated, so there was some extra waiting. And I think that may have come back to haunt us with some bladers having to leave early. We really need to start by noon, or sooner, during summer.
- The weather. Oh cripes, the weather. This wasn't the worst possible scenario for weather, but it was bad in its own ways. We had worries about the weather all week. The morning of, we were looking at 58% chance of scattered thunderstorms at certain points during the tournament. I rolled the dice on weather, and I got something weird. No rain, just extreme humidity and heat. It was almost worse, at least rain would've cooled things down. I, personally, am never hosting during summer heat and storm season again. I can judge, I can help, but I can't organize. It takes too much out of me.
- I did not clearly identify "This is the judge table. Please keep off the seats and keep your stuff away from it" at the start. I should have. Sorry.
- Please stay out of the coned-off tournament stadium areas if you are not actively participating in a match. That's a little hard to enforce when Mike's son is... Very Young and Mike needs to keep an eye on him, so I did not press the issue. Not ideal, but I know when to leave well enough alone. Sorry about the double standard. I used to tape off areas with caution tape, but this was still better than that one Pennsylvania tournament that one time, so, eh, not necessary.
- We discovered a blader had been using a fake Zeta'. Apparently for the first two rounds before discovery! Doh! Well, it's unranked, he stopped using it, didn't realize it was fake before, and... eh. Gotta be more careful of this stuff, but I wasn't judging many matches myself, so it's hard to know if anything slipped by.
- I'm so tired. I'm not going to run another tournament for a while, definitely not during summer, and maybe not outdoors. So tired. And I feel like there's so much I should've done differently. Well, I would say it went okay anyhow. I had fun. I hope y'all did too.
I think we should use this format again. It has some real possibilities at fixing the endless ties the burst standard meta has right now. My hypothesis was correct! That's how you science! Also I believe people liked the format? I did, but I'd like to hear what other attendees thought about it.
RE: Aug-14-2021: "Overly Complicated Rules" reports - SS2 Blader - Aug. 15, 2021
It was very fun and I defenetly prefer this to standard, makes it more fast pasted and also so you don’t die to drift
.
RE: Aug-14-2021: "Overly Complicated Rules" reports - Mike.Nightwing - Aug. 15, 2021
Great work. Appreciate the hard work and dedications!
RE: Aug-14-2021: "Overly Complicated Rules" reports - LJ-Blader - Aug. 15, 2021
I loved this format and would love to do it again! Great tournament DeceasedCrab!
RE: Aug-14-2021: "Overly Complicated Rules" reports - DeceasedCrab - Aug. 15, 2021
I wonder what effect the format had on scouting. You see, when everyone chooses one bey, it can sometimes be easy for people to spy on each other and see "Oh, this person tends to use Roar Bahamut on Zone'+Z" or "This person always goes for Dynamite on Drift" and select beys that counter this. It's a little bit cheaty. I'm not certain how often people are doing this. Myself, I pride myself on having such a garbage memory that I don't retain information on the beys other bladers user, even when I judge. Should I be proud of that? What is wrong with me.
But in 3v3? I could see it having both positive and negative effects on scouting. Myself, I didn't change my combos even once during the first stage. I could see how having to bring 3 beys to every single match would disincline people from changing their beys during the first stage. On that hand, it would increase the effectiveness of scouting. However, on the other hand, good luck remembering all the combos people run. What bey was that person using? Uhhhh I have no idea, I've seen so many beys today, everything hurts. So perhaps sheer quantity is enough to thwart scouting, especially since changing the order of your beys between matches is so easy.
RE: Aug-14-2021: "Overly Complicated Rules" reports - Kei - Aug. 15, 2021
(Aug. 15, 2021 1:30 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: - This tournament operated on the 3v3 modified format I based off of WBBA. Meaning that ties mean you just switch to the next bey, which is different than the WBBA 3v3 test they did up in Toronto. That solved a LOT of problems that normally bog down first stage.
Did all types of draws (outspin, KO, burst) result in advancing to the next Beyblade in the deck?
Certainly, the benefit of speed it brings to matches is undeniable. But do you have any insight about how participants felt about this rule? My opinion is that at the very least this type of rule should mandate two consecutive draws (I'd lean towards three). We should seek to declare a winner between two Beyblades that players have decided to use first whenever it is still reasonable to do so; forcing advancement after a single draw seems a bit extreme.
If the advancement happened instead after 2-3 draws, it gives players a chance to adjust their strategy and finish the original battle themselves instead of being forced to change. But 2-3 draws isn't so long as to really begin affecting the pace of the tournament as a whole.
(Aug. 15, 2021 1:30 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: - Because this was a 3v3 format, I knew deck boxes were going to be essential. I actually did some research on box sizes that fit modern bey combinations (some of the older TT deck boxes are Too Small) and came up with 9x3x2. Weird dimensions, for sure. I went to a couple stores to try and find boxes those size, no good. Eventually I found a place online I could order those boxes that had lids perfect for deck boxes. I went ahead and bought 50 and gave them to everyone who wanted one. I had 6 of them numbered and had separators put in (with help from my wife) and left those at the stadiums if anyone didn't want to use the free boxes I was giving them and needed to use them. It seems like people liked the boxes. They'll come in very handy for WBO deck format even if we don't do 3v3 again, and they're plain white, you can style them up however you wish.
Deck boxes were a bit of a problem at my event haha. The old official ones really are becoming a bit too small. Can you share where you bought the boxes? It would be useful to everyone, I think.
RE: Aug-14-2021: "Overly Complicated Rules" reports - DeceasedCrab - Aug. 15, 2021
(Aug. 15, 2021 7:02 PM)Kei Wrote: Did all types of draws (outspin, KO, burst) result in advancing to the next Beyblade in the deck?
Certainly, the benefit of speed it brings to matches is undeniable. But do you have any insight about how participants felt about this rule? My opinion is that at the very least this type of rule should mandate two consecutive draws (I'd lean towards three). We should seek to declare a winner between two Beyblades that players have decided to use first whenever it is still reasonable to do so; forcing advancement after a single draw seems a bit extreme.
If the advancement happened instead after 2-3 draws, it gives players a chance to adjust their strategy and finish the original battle themselves instead of being forced to change. But 2-3 draws isn't so long as to really begin affecting the pace of the tournament as a whole.
The deck boxes I ordered were these:
https://www.packagingsupplies.com/products/9-x-3-x-2-white-corrugated-mailers
I had plenty for everyone. It's ideal if you're doing a 3v3 format. Plus, it's easy to customize them with art or stickers or whatever.
As for your draws question, yes: any type of draw meant advance to the next Beyblade in the deck or cause a reshuffle if the deck was exhausted. I was clear about that intention in the format description during the tournament thread and the posts and requests that preceded it.
I received no complaints about that. The judges at least were in favor of it. I was a bit harried and busy during the tournament, so I wasn't actively soliciting feedback on the format between rounds. But it seemed like everyone was having a good time and enjoyed the format? People told me afterwards they seemed to enjoy it.
I disagree with your opinion. Do you do a lot of judging at events, or mostly organization? This is an honest question, I'm just having trouble understanding how you reached that opinion if you're doing the judging.
I don't organize often; I mostly judge. And as a judge I can tell you that ties are an unpleasant situation.
A tie is a tie is a tie. Forcing bladers to spin the same matchup over and over and over until one of the beys MAYBE ekes out a very slight win against the other one in a judge's subjective opinion? It's actually boring and frustrating. Armore Bladers reminded me yesterday of the deck format match I had against RED NINJA 0829 in the quarterfinals of Lookin For Beys (1) in Pennsylvania. It was awful, the match lasted 18 minutes because we kept getting ties. You can't always keep bashing the same two beys together over and over hoping for a different result.
Every couple of years the Burst Standard meta stagnates into an opposite spin ties nightmare. It's happened again. With all of the discs that have come out recently with very high LAD (Giga, Tapered, Over) and with tips that have very high LAD on layers that simply do not burst very much (Drift or Bearing on some of the latest DB layers), we are experiencing that nightmare.
Where is the strategy in launching a left spin high LAD bey against a right spin high LAD bey? If both are non-attack types, unless bladers are VERY confident in their teeth, they're going to light launch and try to avoid a burst. Aside from a burst or a KO, why repeat the same combination ad nauseum until the judge makes a very subjective call?
RE: Aug-14-2021: "Overly Complicated Rules" reports - Kei - Aug. 16, 2021
(Aug. 15, 2021 7:41 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: The deck boxes I ordered were these:
https://www.packagingsupplies.com/products/9-x-3-x-2-white-corrugated-mailers
I had plenty for everyone. It's ideal if you're doing a 3v3 format. Plus, it's easy to customize them with art or stickers or whatever.
Thank you!
(Aug. 15, 2021 7:41 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: As for your draws question, yes: any type of draw meant advance to the next Beyblade in the deck or cause a reshuffle if the deck was exhausted. I was clear about that intention in the format description during the tournament thread and the posts and requests that preceded it.
I see, okay. Is there any particular reason you chose to enforce it for all types of draws? Draws by outspin seem to be the actual problem lately; not double-KOs or double-Bursts (and mixes of the two).
(Aug. 15, 2021 7:41 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: I disagree with your opinion. Do you do a lot of judging at events, or mostly organization? This is an honest question, I'm just having trouble understanding how you reached that opinion if you're doing the judging.
I don't organize often; I mostly judge. And as a judge I can tell you that ties are an unpleasant situation.
I judge a lot, yes.
(Aug. 15, 2021 7:41 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: A tie is a tie is a tie. Forcing bladers to spin the same matchup over and over and over until one of the beys MAYBE ekes out a very slight win against the other one in a judge's subjective opinion? It's actually boring and frustrating. Armore Bladers reminded me yesterday of the deck format match I had against RED NINJA 0829 in the quarterfinals of Lookin For Beys (1) in Pennsylvania. It was awful, the match lasted 18 minutes because we kept getting ties. You can't always keep bashing the same two beys together over and over hoping for a different result.
Every couple of years the Burst Standard meta stagnates into an opposite spin ties nightmare. It's happened again. With all of the discs that have come out recently with very high LAD (Giga, Tapered, Over) and with tips that have very high LAD on layers that simply do not burst very much (Drift or Bearing on some of the latest DB layers), we are experiencing that nightmare.
Where is the strategy in launching a left spin high LAD bey against a right spin high LAD bey? If both are non-attack types, unless bladers are VERY confident in their teeth, they're going to light launch and try to avoid a burst. Aside from a burst or a KO, why repeat the same combination ad nauseum until the judge makes a very subjective call?
The biggest issue I have is in matchups where there is a good chance that a different result will occur if replayed. This is mainly the case with double-KOs or double-Bursts where it is more likely that a player could adjust their strategy to achieve a different outcome.
Take the awakened Rise Driver for instance. Or the Quattro Driver. When you use something like this you can very easily switch between a passive or aggressive strategy depending on the situation, which can wildly affect the outcome of a particular matchup. To force a switch or advancement after just one tie seems extreme and strips players of their individual agency to make choices about how they are using their selected combos after seeing how they perform.
If you allow a few draws, it gives players a chance to adjust their strategy based on the information garnered from the draw that just occurred.
As for opposite spin matchups, certainly this is where the problem becomes a bit more murky because at first glance it can just seem that it is totally random and that you're just waiting for Combo A or Combo B to barely eke out a win if both players are weak launching.
In some cases, that may indeed be close to being true if the combinations in question have not been tuned, balanced tested, awakened, etc.
However, some players spend a lot of time perfecting their combinations to be able to increase their odds of winning such matchups. It doesn't mean they will win 100% of the time, but it means they have a better chance of winning than of losing in particular scenarios.
There are random things about how a Beyblade can be positioned or knocked within a battle, and it might end up in an awkward position at the end of the battle and end it in a draw. But in certain cases if you have tuned your Beyblade, you can produce results that on average will be positive in certain matchups. By forcing a switch or advancement after a single draw, you eliminate this possibility from the game.
My feeling is that in such scenarios, players should be afforded the ability to play out the original matchup for a reasonable amount of time/number of draws before moving on for the sake of time.
We will be implementing a solution for matches with endless draws because at a certain point it begins to affect the flow of the tournament and absolutely is becoming a problem. No disagreement there. But I think we need to be careful about taking away the ability for players to invoke their own strategies in response to a draw or taking away the ability to give their combo a chance to win a match that it statistically should. A single draw shouldn't be treated immediately as a negative outcome.