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+--- Thread: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! (/Thread-Should-Sniping-Gattyaki-be-part-of-the-game-%E2%80%93-WBO-Staff-wants-your-feedback)
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - 6Jupiter5 - Feb. 09, 2021
New polling
People who don’t want it banned
Spoiler (Click to View)
Spoiler (Click to View)
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - 6Jupiter5 - Mar. 10, 2021
Just a question, when is the descision going to be made?
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - valtaoi_007 - Mar. 10, 2021
just a question
for now is it banned or not ?
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - Shindog - Mar. 10, 2021
(Mar. 10, 2021 4:50 AM)valtaoi_007 Wrote: just a question
for now is it banned or not ?
For now, no.
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - Shindog - Mar. 10, 2021
(Mar. 10, 2021 2:20 AM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: Just a question, when is the descision going to be made?
Hopefully soon. It is a complicated topic that touches on things beyond gattyaki and it is taking time.
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - Bersilus - Mar. 20, 2021
I like it as it tests the players skills rather than relying on parts completely. Gives the poor kid with not as good parts a chance at a come back
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - Jdog757 - Mar. 20, 2021
At least have it up for a month or 5 and see the fees back then
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - th!nk - Apr. 03, 2021
I'm assuming it would stay legal in plastics/hms either way - it has too storied a history there to remove, and if there were a tournament, it would be the only way most people would have a chance against someone who can shell out prices for a good collection. I feel that it's largely a moot point at this stage (correct me if I'm wrong), but it's nice to have a workable rule set for historical documentation and the occasional event. I did find it rather dangerous with later MFB releases. Basalt to the privates is a horrid thing.
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - th!nk - May. 06, 2021
Okay, to elaborate on the above. Again, I'm familiar with Plastics (a shock, I know), MFB Limited (more than most people remember, I would think), MFB, and to an extent HMS. I don't know Zero-G Stadia, or anything Burst. I own Tornado Attack, BB-10, the Hasbro Pro Series Stadium, and previously owned a few Hasbro Plastics Stadiums (the Beystadium 2 which was basically an early plain Takara stadium with pockets, and a big yellow one which I hated as it was weird in the middle). My main interest is plastics - and that's the generation I am very obviously biased towards. I do understand it is not a priority generation, being unranked, but I will advocate for it to be both prolonged and preserved.
First off, I'm not really going to talk about actual gatyakki, landing on top of an opponent is dumb - my personal favourite form of KO launching is about doing the opposite.
I think I've explained that before actually - there was another heated argument about gatyakki in the past (where the term collision/ko launching came up), I think the easiest way to find it for the committee might be checking Deikailo's warning logs as I'm pretty sure she copped a mute in that thread.
I also think we need a better video - the one in the OP looks like it goes comfortably past the half way mark of the stadium... But that video can't be done in Burst stadia IMO.
Now, from my own practice, I cannot complete anything resembling gatyakki or even mid-air collisions in the Hasbro Burst Pro Series Stadium, and for the same reason I doubt it can be done legally in the Burst Standard Stadium - there's not enough room to build momentum.
As such, I think any collision launching in burst stadia is likely to be improper play and I do think Shindog has demonstrated this to be the case.
However, in other stadia - well... First off, combo, we'll call it Maximum Turtle for short -
AR: Smash Turtle
WD: Ten Heavy
SG: Neo Right SG (Heavy Metal Core)
BB: SG Metal Ball Base (4 Balls)
Perhaps one of the big combos that KO Launching was relevant to. Without KO Launching, there's little reason to choose a weight based defense combo over Circle Survivor Defense. It has been a hallmark of the type, and removing all forms of KO/collision based launching would be destructive...
Now, me personally? Within the 30 centimetre radius I can just barely fling Maximum Turtle from just before the mid point to just past the other end of the stadium.
My own "KO launch" is along the stadium floor, the bey hits, leaning forward, and basically "rugby tackles" the opposing beyblade before they land or get steady. The goal here is to get them out an exit, or, if they have wall behind them, straight over the wall. It's less risky, but perhaps my favourite blading moment was pulling it off in casual play against r0ckbull's Driger V2 (the one that relegated me to 2nd place in the only plastics tournament I ever got to play) - I aimed Maximum Turtle or something similar perfectly and it rammed Driger V2, which went over the stadium wall and a few metres behind the stadium. We both shouted. Good times - times I would hate to see disappear. Also part of the reason I like Smash Turtle or Mirage Goddess over other options - better range, and part of why I use Ten Heavy - more bulk to throw.
But yes, mid air collision *is* possible in plastics (easiest for flingable weight and larger size), HMS (really hard IMO, they're tiny), and MFB (too heavy or too small depending on the top, IMO). I can post video showing a combo sailing thru the air, but I don't have a second blader willing to have me catapult Maximum Turtle at them (it's not an enticing prospect).
Once again, these burst stadia seem to cause a lot of problems. I'm not a fan, but that's the current generation, and we have to work with it.
Personally? Given we're blading in new stadia, we need to account for that. I don't think we should explicitly ban it in them, because it's already banned - you can't do it without going past the mid way mark - that's shown in the OP.
But we do need to define a game start and there are a lot of shenanigans. Extended play areas are a big issue to work around. Personally? I would just say as soon as a combo exits the dish after Shoot, it's GORN. We already have rules to prevent what is shown at 1:38 in the OP. That's the half way rule. Yeah, maybe a little hard to judge but not in that one, for me at least. We just need to publicise that better - we can use that as an example of what not to do, then people will be more aware when judging. Create better resources, basically.
There is also the issue where if you are restricting launch movement, you cause issues with some people's sliding shots - mine is to the side, banked and flicked forward.
If you make it both beys touching the PPA... You could take out legitimate strategies as collateral.
If you don't want people launching over pockets and stuff, just say they have to launch in the dish, surely?
As for play areas, that I'm more concerned about. Rebounds are a cancer on plastics attack, but so is finding a good stadium. Having used the Hasbro Pro Series Stadium, I've had to add a disclaimer to the CC List. The strongest plastic attackers can bounce a compact (which are specifically designed not to lose spin when hit by a beyblade or hit into walls) 3 times and have it bounce back in and outspin them. This happens Way Too Often. They just hit too hard and are being slaughtered for it. They already have to deal with rubber tipped bearing-equipped beys and things with giant semi-free spinning plastic shields playing keep-away with their primary mass that also weight a whole lot. For compacts to have a very good chance of beating them? It's a different meta, and that's at best. If compacts can do it and KO launching doesn't exist, you don't need to use weight based defense, for starters...
Make pocket walls a KO, in plastics at least? Then they're fine. I want these stadia to be legal - TA is impossible to find and BB-10 isn't much easier any more, I don't want more barriers to entry, but I also don't want people to be experiencing plastics in an environment where attack just mirror forces itself into oblivion - that's not what plastics is about. We did a lot to make attack viable, and we've undone all of that for the most readily available stadia we have, now.
I know we want a unified rulebook but Beyblade is practically 3-5 different toy lines under the same label. They're all different, and I sincerely hope we're not trying to fit square pegs into round holes here for the sake of looking slick.
Sure, it's unranked, but can we not still care about a balanced metagame?
This is a ramble, I know, I haven't really been able to condense my thoughts despite about 6 different drafts. But, I hope it helps. Sorry if I missed things in the thread - there is a lot to watch and read, I have an unfortunately finite attention span.
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - Pbreazy - May. 31, 2021
I haven’t participated in any tournaments, but as a spectator, I don’t think sniping should be allowed.
It seems like a nightmare to judge.
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - JA Industries. - Jun. 01, 2021
(May. 31, 2021 2:06 AM)Pbreazy Wrote: I haven’t participated in any tournaments, but as a spectator, I don’t think sniping should be allowed.
It seems like a nightmare to judge.
Yeah, tbh it does, thankfully my state is a pretty small community and generally older people so, it should be good when I become an organizer
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - CrisisCrusher07 - Jun. 07, 2021
Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? So this is a tough question to answer, as I have at least one friend that I know of who practically relies on this technique to get him through tournaments. I myself get frustrated with this because in testing I don’t have a hard time beating him. But the moment we go against each other in a tournament it’s like I’m losing to those “random” KOs. So while it upsets me a lot when it happens to me, I enjoy seeing my friend make his way to the top cut of tournaments. But still the big question is when does the game actually start, when the work shoot is said or from the moment the Beyblades hit the stadium floor?
After a lot of thought I feel as if the game should start when the word shoot is being said. I’ve come to this conclusion mostly because I keep looking at the B-09 standard stadium. With the design of it as well as the launching rules already in place it makes it hard for both players to try and align themselves with the safer spots of the stadium, such as launching in front of a wall rather than a pocket. Doing this is also harder to do on one side of the stadium compared to the other with the way the stadiums are divided. It’s also a headache when judging weather or not something might have been intentional or not. My 6 year old son for instance has a hard time launching when the word shoot is said. He is always eager to try and launch at Go when saying “3-2-1 Go Shoot.” So that could potentially allow someone launching at shoot to snipe him by mistake. Then you have to worry about if when hearing it the words did your brain register the launch at Go or at Shoot? It can be a headache to try and realize every factor at once as a judge. So in some ways it’s easier for judges if you just let it be part of the game.
However there is another side to this. As I’m sure you have noticed I’m talking about the B-09 standard stadium and it’s design as being a big influence in my decision. So for those that say they with for it to no longer be allowed and for the match to start when the blade hit the stadium floor, I have a proposal for you. What if the B-183 Dynamite Battle stadium were to become the new tournament standard stadium? Now I will say A LOT more testing from the community is needed in order for a decision like this to be made. So I encourage those that have the B-183 stadium to do a lot of testing and record your findings for the WBO staff to consider the idea. Now looking at the new stadium it has 2 pockets directly across from each other and a lot more wall in between them. If this was to be one the new standard stadium for tournaments it would be a lot harder for players to try and snipe out the opponent for a quick KO, regulars less of the stadiums position, because you will always be able to strategically launch in front of a wall instead of a pocket if you so choose to. Because of that there will be almost no reason to try and snipe your opponent and so mid air collisions in theory wouldn’t do what they do now as often. So at that point I feel the game should start when both Beyblades touch the stadium floor.
So that’s my game on the question. I just feel that the design of the current standard stadium is the real reason why it’s a fine and almost unavoidable mechanic/strategy of the game. Yet could be taken away if the stadium changed to the newer Dynamite Battle Stadium.
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - Right_burst2005 - Jul. 30, 2021
This happens on accident sometimes even I don't think it should be banned. There really wouldn't be a way to tell if it was on purpose. Even if it is on purpose I don't see a problem with it. I do it all the time to my cousin and he gets kind of mad. I mainly use this technique if I have a spin steal combo(drift) against a same spin.
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - Iamjalenh - Aug. 02, 2021
how can you determin that and stop it for happening as a judge
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - toastdkiwi - Aug. 09, 2021
(Jul. 30, 2021 5:05 PM)Right_burst2005 Wrote: This happens on accident sometimes even I don't think it should be banned. There really wouldn't be a way to tell if it was on purpose. Even if it is on purpose I don't see a problem with it. I do it all the time to my cousin and he gets kind of mad. I mainly use this technique if I have a spin steal combo(drift) against a same spin.
I totally agree with this. If anything, it’s a technique. It takes precision and good timing to pull off a snipe. It’s not as if you are launching 5 seconds after your opponent, just the space of a few letters/syllables. It’s also not a guarantee that it will always make contact, so it’s not a cheap trick that’ll always leave your opponent in disadvantage.
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - Attila - Aug. 12, 2021
No it should not because its annoying
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - Shindog - Sep. 05, 2021
Here is a recent video of what I would consider a gattyaki. I was right there next to the judge on this one. It looked good at the time to both me and the judge, and Vanish was awarded a KO. However, after getting the video and slowing it down+ listening with decent headphones, I do now completely believe Vanish was launched too late. This didn’t affect the outcome of the match luckily, but my point still remains that Gattyaki is too hard to judge.
https://youtu.be/-_3X7hG_c48?t=1m07s
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - Shindog - Sep. 05, 2021
Later in the same video:
https://youtu.be/-_3X7hG_c48?t=2m19s
A gattyaki that is too early, but this one was called back.
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - Virtuous Circle - Sep. 06, 2021
(Sep. 05, 2021 7:12 AM)Shindog Wrote: Here is a recent video of what I would consider a gattyaki. I was right there next to the judge on this one. It looked good at the time to both me and the judge, and Vanish was awarded a KO. However, after getting the video and slowing it down+ listening with decent headphones, I do now completely believe Vanish was launched too late. This didn’t affect the outcome of the match luckily, but my point still remains that Gattyaki is too hard to judge.
https://youtu.be/-_3X7hG_c48?t=1m07s
While I was editing, even to me, it seemed that she launched okish but as far as I remember that time during the match, she launched a little bit late. That was how I felt, but I accepted judge`s call. AND I do know that`s her habit (launching 1/2 second late based on my experience at my workplace tournament over 2 years now)
(Sep. 05, 2021 7:25 AM)Shindog Wrote: Later in the same video:
https://youtu.be/-_3X7hG_c48?t=2m19s
A gattyaki that is too early, but this one was called back.
As jojo mentioned in the video, the opponent launched obviously early for the first and second round. I don't think he tried to perform gattyaki intentionally though.
Shindog what do you think about this one? Do you think judge should call it KO or relaunch? I have been wondering about this.
https://youtu.be/GnIcGX2fQno?t=664
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - Shindog - Sep. 06, 2021
![[Image: RHIbZzu.jpg]](https://i.imgur.com/RHIbZzu.jpg)
To me the issue in the video above is the launch heights. If the height wasn’t illegal, no reshoot is needed in my opinion given the current WBO rules. However, you can see, Virtuous Circlethat I don’t like our current rules for many reasons already stated in this thread. I rather have both beys contact the stadium floor to signify the start of a battle.
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - Tri - Sep. 06, 2021
Here’s the issue I’m seeing from my experience.
I’m on the fence of whether it is banned or not, but I do think the official ruling for the countdown is a bit to blame for players taking advantage of this tactic. There’s a long timeframe where someone can actually launch with “Go Shoot” and “Let it Rip”.
My argument is favor of banning it would be to simply shorten the amount of time players have to launch by simply saying “go” at the end. This would allow judges to more accurately see if a launch was late/early or not. I noticed a lot of launches at my most recent event on different syllables, some going slightly early and some at the tail end of “shoot” or “rip”.
However I don’t entirely believe that the ruling is the issue. That was just more so a way to ban it more accurately and make the judges call more accurate. I also believe it can be a beneficial tactic, and it’s not entirely easy to pull off. I think as long as both beyblades are on course for the stadium floor and one is not still attached to the launcher prior to the other touching the floor, it’s fair game. Not easy to judge, but it can be done.
EDIT: I’m mostly an MFB guy, but I did participate in a burst event last weekend.
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - Virtuous Circle - Sep. 06, 2021
(Sep. 06, 2021 7:26 PM)Shindog Wrote:
However, you can see, Virtuous Circlethat I don’t like our current rules for many reasons already stated in this thread. I rather have both beys contact the stadium floor to signify the start of a battle.
The height was within 1 foot from the floor of the stadium.
Absolutely, I agree with your point. Preferably, both beys need to contact the stadium floor to start the battle. As far as I remember, the quarter final between me and poliswag back in Feb 2020, judge and poliswag double checked his judgement touched the floor before being knocked out.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B9GVYlSFMOI/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
It`s the round 4.
Things are different in WBO rules.
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - Kei - Sep. 10, 2021
(Sep. 05, 2021 7:12 AM)Shindog Wrote: Here is a recent video of what I would consider a gattyaki. I was right there next to the judge on this one. It looked good at the time to both me and the judge, and Vanish was awarded a KO. However, after getting the video and slowing it down+ listening with decent headphones, I do now completely believe Vanish was launched too late. This didn’t affect the outcome of the match luckily, but my point still remains that Gattyaki is too hard to judge.
https://youtu.be/-_3X7hG_c48?t=1m07s
I don't see a problem with this one. It's a bit hard to hear "shoot" in the video but based on the cadence of that countdown and what I could see, it looks like the Vanish user launched at the end of "Shoot" and maybe started pulling the string at the start of "Shoot".
If anything, you might be able to argue that he Dynamite user launched too early. It seems like they launched at "Go" and the rulebook says:
Quote:Both bladers must simultaneously launch their Beyblades as the word “shoot” is called.
If you really want to get in to things I guess you can argue the precise meaning of "launch". Does it mean when the user starts pulling the cord/string or when the Beyblade leaves the launcher? When does the state of being "launched" become true?
But ignoring the minute details like this ... just watching that it to me seems to generally be within what I would consider an acceptable difference in launch timing. It's literally impossible to expect all players to launch at precisely the same time in all matches, so there needs to be some lee-way to allow for slightly different timing during the countdown.
If a player wants to or ends up launching very slightly 'early' or very slightly 'late', I think that should be permitted considering the realities of reaction time and the length of the words in the countdown.
And if you know you are going to launch towards the 'early' end of the spectrum, it is your responsibility to be aware that you might end up being hit by your opponent from above. As such, you need to account for that in your risk assessment and launch positioning.
(Sep. 05, 2021 7:25 AM)Shindog Wrote: Later in the same video:
https://youtu.be/-_3X7hG_c48?t=2m19s
A gattyaki that is too early, but this one was called back.
On the other hand, this one seems more obviously early since they started launching before "Go" was even said.
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - Shindog - Sep. 10, 2021
(Sep. 10, 2021 3:23 PM)Kei Wrote:(Sep. 05, 2021 7:12 AM)Shindog Wrote: Here is a recent video of what I would consider a gattyaki. I was right there next to the judge on this one. It looked good at the time to both me and the judge, and Vanish was awarded a KO. However, after getting the video and slowing it down+ listening with decent headphones, I do now completely believe Vanish was launched too late. This didn’t affect the outcome of the match luckily, but my point still remains that Gattyaki is too hard to judge.
https://youtu.be/-_3X7hG_c48?t=1m07s
I don't see a problem with this one. It's a bit hard to hear "shoot" in the video but based on the cadence of that countdown and what I could see, it looks like the Vanish user launched at the end of "Shoot" and maybe started pulling the string at the start of "Shoot".
If anything, you might be able to argue that he Dynamite user launched too early. It seems like they launched at "Go" and the rulebook says:
Quote:Both bladers must simultaneously launch their Beyblades as the word “shoot” is called.
If you really want to get in to things I guess you can argue the precise meaning of "launch". Does it mean when the user starts pulling the cord/string or when the Beyblade leaves the launcher? When does the state of being "launched" become true?
But ignoring the minute details like this ... just watching that it to me seems to generally be within what I would consider an acceptable difference in launch timing. It's literally impossible to expect all players to launch at precisely the same time in all matches, so there needs to be some lee-way to allow for slightly different timing during the countdown.
If a player wants to or ends up launching very slightly 'early' or very slightly 'late', I think that should be permitted considering the realities of reaction time and the length of the words in the countdown.
(Sep. 05, 2021 7:25 AM)Shindog Wrote: Later in the same video:
https://youtu.be/-_3X7hG_c48?t=2m19s
A gattyaki that is too early, but this one was called back.
On the other hand, this one seems more obviously early since they started launching before "Go" was even said.
I don’t think the dynamite user launched early and I believe the vanish user did Launch a bit late. I do personally see a problem in the first video. I was there in real time and didn’t see a problem. I guess my point is that even with video it can be hard to decide.
RE: Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback! - Kei - Sep. 10, 2021
(Sep. 10, 2021 3:31 PM)Shindog Wrote: I don’t think the dynamite user launched early and I believe the vanish user did Launch a bit late. I do personally see a problem in the first video. I was there in real time and didn’t see a problem. I guess my point is that even with video it can be hard to decide.
For sure, I agree. Judging can be hard. These situations will never be fully black and white. The judge exists in order to make a decision to the best of their ability.
I think no matter what rules we implement, there will be a component of it that becomes difficult to judge. There can be some difficulties judging Gattyaki, but there could also be difficulties judging if both Beyblades hitting the stadium floor was mandated as the point at which a match starts. How can you precisely tell the exact moment when both Beyblades have touched the floor?
In both scenarios there will inherently be incentives to launch early or late. Players will always push the limits in order to gain an advantage. It's up to the judges to decide whether whatever each player does exists within the parameters of what our launching rules permit, which will always exist on a spectrum given the realities I mentioned before.
If we accept that judging will always be difficult, then the discussion becomes more of a philosophical one with regards to whether we believe Gattyaki is a legitimate technique or not. I absolutely believe it is, but I understand those who feel otherwise. There is no clear or definitive objectively correct answer here. And that's what has made this discussion so difficult to resolve.