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+--- Thread: Where is this game going? (/Thread-Where-is-this-game-going)
RE: Where is this game going? - Hazel - Dec. 30, 2011
(Dec. 30, 2011 4:58 PM)NightWolf7919 Wrote: There really wasn't much to discuss in the first place. Either you agreed with Yamislayer or you didn't; after all, he pretty much covered everything in the OP.
Actually, a fairly long, potent discussion was going for a while. I was really hoping it would last longer than it did... so, if things don't get back into that particular vein, there's little point in it staying open. I think it is still possible for some contributory posts to be made, though.
RE: Where is this game going? - Janstarblast - Dec. 31, 2011
And yes, Fusion breaks the long-lasting chain of new releases outclassing each other.
People say there should be more of Fusion MWs to bring a balance in the meta-game, but the fact that Fusion is BAD, it would mean that more Fusion-like wheels would be AS BAD... So, having more of Fusion-like wheels balancing the meta is a fantasy... But yes, should we get wheels having equal potential in their respective categories, it would look good.
The problem is, Fusion entered and did not even 'touch' the meta-game. It was just like a pothole on a highway.
Only if it cast a noticeable impact (not powerful, though) in initial tests, it would have done its job well.
I mean, TT is either releasing extremely powerful wheels one after the other(mentioned several times in this thread), or they release something as embarrassing as Fusion, which hardly affects the other parts. The game remains unaltered throughout.
RE: Where is this game going? - th!nk - Dec. 31, 2011
It didn't do too badly, that kind of winrate vs attack is (or was) pretty normal, things have been top tier with winrates like that. Just slightly higher than that, I think, sits the level where a lot of people were comfortable with the winrate of Defense vs Attack, though that's going from memory.
That said, you make a good point; they can't introduce an average/balanced (meta wise) wheel now, because they're already outclassed or defeated easily. If they were to produce a balanced meta now, they would have to do it by introducing more "superpowered" parts that stand up to the current dominant parts. However, instead of this, they seem to be releasing things that demolish the other parts, instead of being balanced. Sure, it makes good advertising "your friend has this wheel and keeps beating you? BUY THIS WHEEL", but it doesn't make for a healthy game.
RE: Where is this game going? - Janstarblast - Dec. 31, 2011
They actually have to release stronger wheels. Wheels of equal caliber would not do much. The meta-game's already destroyed.
Think of this now, they release MW 'X' having equal caliber as a Basalt wheel. Nothing great in that. Duo will remain the dominating wheel(just an example).
If Duo can beat Basalt, it will also beat 'X' with relative ease.
Now, if they release wheel 'Y' having equal caliber as a Duo wheel, that too, would be meh...
There would be now two wheels of equal caliber dominating the game. Basalt was outclassed by just one Duo MW(imagine Phantom and Death, the other 2 wheels known to outclass Basalt, do not exist), but now, it would be outclassed by Duo and 'Y'. Say, they release more wheels similar to Duo, lets name them A, B, C, and D. Now, these wheels will dominate. Anything except themselves(or parts of equal caliber) against them would lose easily. To remain up to date, you will have to play with those top tier wheels. Would you be happy playing around with just Duo, Y, A, B, C, and D? Those will be the only wheels capable of beating each other. Not to mention that they will just barely beat each other. Now, if you have Duo, why the hell will you even buy A, B, C, D, and Y?
So of course, TT would not like to waste a lot of money behind something which will just barely beat something. According to them, the 'game must go on', and for that, more powerful parts have to be released.
The main point is, do not expect things to be 'balanced' now. If you'll see something get balanced, it would apply only for the handful of parts yet to be released. The old parts which have been outclassed, will never make a return.
So, "Where is the game going?" is not the most perfect title... The game's already gone.
Actually, the only remedy to this problem has to be a second format. I see nothing else which could make the old parts useful.
EDIT- I don't think this was mentioned before, but if it was, then I am sorry for posting a rehash.
RE: Where is this game going? - Arupaeo - Dec. 31, 2011
(Dec. 31, 2011 9:26 AM)Janstarblast Wrote: And yes, Fusion breaks the long-lasting chain of new releases outclassing each other.
People say there should be more of Fusion MWs to bring a balance in the meta-game, but the fact that Fusion is BAD, it would mean that more Fusion-like wheels would be AS BAD... So, having more of Fusion-like wheels balancing the meta is a fantasy... But yes, should we get wheels having equal potential in their respective categories, it would look good.
The problem is, Fusion entered and did not even 'touch' the meta-game. It was just like a pothole on a highway.
Only if it cast a noticeable impact (not powerful, though) in initial tests, it would have done its job well.
I mean, TT is either releasing extremely powerful wheels one after the other(mentioned several times in this thread), or they release something as embarrassing as Fusion, which hardly affects the other parts. The game remains unaltered throughout.
Hold your horses buddy! The Fusion wheel has almost no testing whatsoever. You cannot go around saying things like the wheel is bad, or doesn't touch the metagame or is an embarrassment.
These things simply are not true, and you do the community a disservice by saying them.
RE: Where is this game going? - th!nk - Jan. 01, 2012
jan: Is the metagame really that broken? Some people seem to complain that either attack or defense is overpowered (stamina just sits there and looks on and wins a lot of tournaments anyway), but are either of them really overpowered in tournaments?
What I'd like to see TT do, is release wheels around the current level of power, but have them differing in some elements, in terms of doing well against certain things and poorly against others. Bring back the wide range of usable wheels. And then don't blow them away by releasing another basalt.
Honestly, I wish we had a better picture of what was actually going on at tournaments...
RE: Where is this game going? - Arupaeo - Jan. 01, 2012
The winning combinations thread is doing a pretty good job I think. The one thing it highlights for me more than anything else is how different many of the metagames are from each other. It will be even more interesting to watch the various metagames over time to see if there is any convergence, and if not can we figure out why?...
RE: Where is this game going? - th!nk - Jan. 01, 2012
I am just curious as to what the winning combinations won against, really. It'd be a huge pain to record every matchup, but yeah, I'd still love to see that data. Mostly, this is motivated by B: D's huge presence in that thread.
RE: Where is this game going? - Kai-V - Jan. 01, 2012
I have data from one of the Indonesian tournaments I think, if you want, hah.
RE: Where is this game going? - Hazel - Jan. 01, 2012
From what I've seen in my time here, a good deal of the difference in metagames has come from part availability - I believe Uwik once mentioned that Indonesia's bladers were especially proficient with Metal Masters-era and prior parts because most of the bladers in his area couldn't get anything newer, so they were forced to get creative, and rather knowledgable, with older parts that, in some cases, we thought we knew the tricks of thoroughly.
It was Uwik who first really explained to me how many different ways CS could be used, and got me interested in it enough to practice with mine.
I'm not sure if that difference is fully applicable, though, to Italy's metagame, which is also WILDLY different from our own(as can be seen by Galaxy's tier list relative to usage in Italian events), but I really cannot be certain. Nevertheless, it is pretty easy to get a scope of tournament environments if you speak to frequent hosts often enough, in addition to checking Winning Combinations and, in many cases(wherein the results aren't posted there), individual tournament threads, which will almost always mention the goings-on and the top 3 combos.
RE: Where is this game going? - th!nk - Jan. 01, 2012
If it's no trouble, I'd be interested. Can't say if I would really make much of it, but at the least it would be nice to look over
Plus, I am quite interested in Indonesia's metagame, having spoken to Uwik about it. Apparently it is rather defense-oriented, a lot of CS, and attack is quite risky there because of the number of defense combo's, and a few of the bladers being very proficient with using them to beat a wide range of opponents.
That said, I guess a defensive metagame is pretty common right now, but yeah.
RE: Where is this game going? - Kai-V - Jan. 01, 2012
Well, I am not certain that it was Indonesia, and it was certainly from a few months ago as you know our rhythm in processing tournaments, but I could still find the data if you really still want it.
RE: Where is this game going? - th!nk - Jan. 01, 2012
Only if it's no trouble to you. If it's any trouble at all, don't bother
RE: Where is this game going? - Uwik - Jan. 01, 2012
(Jan. 01, 2012 8:23 AM)Kai-V Wrote: I have data from one of the Indonesian tournaments I think, if you want, hah.
You probably are referring to the 2011 Bey Day Tournament, where I (tried) writing down almost all the combinations used during parts check-up. I recall it was my longest tournament ever due to this. Hahaha. I gave up writing them down after like the first 2 hours or so.
I still record combinations and such, by walking around during tournament for inspection and talking to the the judges. After compiling the data into a more coherent list, statistically, for WBO tournaments, Indonesians use attack type with an estimate of 34%. It is still a good percentage, since it is one third of the 3 types (5 if we considered Balance and Anti Meta). The remainder of 50% is just a jumble mess of defense/stamina hybrid, and 16% for the combination of pure defense, pure stamina, balance, and anti meta.
(Jan. 01, 2012 8:24 AM)Hazel Wrote: From what I've seen in my time here, a good deal of the difference in metagames has come from part availability - I believe Uwik once mentioned that Indonesia's bladers were especially proficient with Metal Masters-era and prior parts because most of the bladers in his area couldn't get anything newer, so they were forced to get creative, and rather knowledgable, with older parts that, in some cases, we thought we knew the tricks of thoroughly.
It was Uwik who first really explained to me how many different ways CS could be used, and got me interested in it enough to practice with mine.
It's true. Spot on the dot. Avalaibility is still a big issue. It is one of the reasons I/we buy new releases in bulk, so that it can be distributed to our members or participants, so that they all get equal chance of winning.
We have 2 distinctly different metagames here, WBO and the WBBA. WBBA's meta is pretty much stagnant due to the season 2 limitation. Players are now recycling parts. Gravity is increasingly becoming more popular, it was a wheel that almost everybody dismissed in the past. Although 4D beys are scheduled to be released in local retail shops in the coming few months. It will be interesting to see both meta converge into one.
About the CS, I remember posting about that a long while back, I never realize that you would actually read it, let alone develop it into more understandable format. Great!
RE: Where is this game going? - Hazel - Jan. 01, 2012
Yeah. It is almost precisely that kind of scenario that makes me a backer - or at least theoretical supporter - of the idea of a second WBO format that limits parts to a pre-maximum series or thereabouts era of MFB, forcing people to go back to honing their craft a little better. I know it seems stagnant for people forced into it by the WBBA, but for people who have access, and frequent exposure, to the current metagame, I think taking a trip back in time at will could be pretty refreshing and enjoyable.
At the time, I was kind of unimpressed with my own CS, even after having worn it to the "ideal" condition - your post was kind of a "right place at the right time" thing, and since then it is a tip I have not really let go of.
RE: Where is this game going? - ©oke - Jan. 01, 2012
(Jan. 01, 2012 11:43 AM)Hazel Wrote: Yeah. It is almost precisely that kind of scenario that makes me a backer - or at least theoretical supporter - of the idea of a second WBO format that limits parts to a pre-maximum series or thereabouts era of MFB, forcing people to go back to honing their craft a little better. I know it seems stagnant for people forced into it by the WBBA, but for people who have access, and frequent exposure, to the current metagame, I think taking a trip back in time at will could be pretty refreshing and enjoyable.I 100% agree that a second format would be a great addition to the metagame, but it is virtually impossible. If the rules stated that only parts from before BB-95, there will be a wise guy that uses a 145 from Basalt Horogium or a RSF from Blitz Unicorno. And even if there is not, with Hasbro renaming beys, people will obviously be confused about which beys to use and not to use. So as of now, it is only a theory that could make or break the metagame. I believe that the best thing to do would be to have a test tournament with a test format rules to see if this is at all possible.
RE: Where is this game going? - Nocto - Jan. 01, 2012
No, another format would simply lengthen the inspection of the blades, but nobody would forbid you, for example, to use your Death Quetzalcoatl’s 125 Track, especially since anyone can dye his own parts. It would make tournaments longer, but it’s far from impossible from this angle.
The problem of having two formats under one Beypoint System would be almost the same as trying to put the recreational and competitive divisions of a sport under one ranking. They’d never play together, they wouldn’t play on the same level, but a recreational team could rank higher than a competitive one, even if it’s no match to the latter, simply because it has an “easier time†in his format.
Arguably, this bias is already present in regions where access to newer parts is limited, but it’s not impossible to get them and the bias is not intentional, unlike the one I just mentioned. At the end of the day, under one format, it’s up to the player to stay competitive and nobody ever said that hobbies, let alone competitive ones, were cheap.
However, there is the possibility of having each format under its own Beypoint System, but someone who actually manages the current one would know more about how much of a hassle managing two would be.
RE: Where is this game going? - ©oke - Jan. 01, 2012
Nocto That is very true. I totally forgot about dying pieces. Also, I agree that having one Beypoint system for each format would be a challenge, but if there were more people working within the system, it could be accomplished. And as for the matter of the rankings of the formats, it is possible that the new format could have a slight variation to it, for example if winning a battle is worth about 20 points(I have no idea the actual value) in the current format, then in the new format they could be worth slightly less, thus almost entirely eliminating the possibility of the current formats top blader being ranked less than the new formats top blader.
RE: Where is this game going? - Nocto - Jan. 02, 2012
I’ve thought of that, but to diminish the value of even half the battles diminishes the Beypoint System as a whole. The best players of one format get mingled with the weakest of the other in the middle and neither ranks become representative of a player’s worth. You can’t just say 'n'th and up is one format and 'n'th down is another. Not to mention that having battles worth less than others would break a balance already threatened by an uneven number of tournaments in each region.
I maintain that the only way to make this work is having two formats independent of each other, but the question whether it can be implemented and managed or if it is even desired still stands.
RE: Where is this game going? - Hazel - Jan. 02, 2012
It could technically be managed, and I do think it would overall be beneficial, but it's still a lot of work and extra hassle for organizers and processing.
RE: Where is this game going? - Yamislayer - Jan. 02, 2012
I think I can contact kai-v and ask her to be a second format manager.
Just asking, who would enjoy this? Should I go for it?
If I get some people that would like this to happen, I'll go for it.
(Also, there will be some testing needed. For example, if the format is "pre maximum series parts" we will need to test things like uw145 or screw metal wheel to ensure they're not overpowered. UW145 was a ridiculous example, I know)
RE: Where is this game going? - Hazel - Jan. 02, 2012
I'm not sure how well-received it would be, but discussing it couldn't hurt. It wouldn't be as simple as just placing a member in charge of it, though - it would need to be micro-managed just like the primary metagame is.
However, I do think adding a time warp metagame format would overall be beneficial for the health of the MFB metagame.
RE: Where is this game going? - Yamislayer - Jan. 02, 2012
Yeah, i wanted to "officially"start it, then i think i'll need few members forming a "staff"
for metagame managing, testing, etc.
so the question is like, would you like me to getting started and send a pm to kai-v and starting everything?
RE: Where is this game going? - Kai-V - Jan. 02, 2012
You know, I read this topic too, hah.
RE: Where is this game going? - Yamislayer - Jan. 02, 2012
Of course, i can read "kai-v" above my post, but since you hav always been my "official stuff" reference point,
so if people show interest I'll pm you and discuss about this.