MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Printable Version +- World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. (https://worldbeyblade.org) +-- Forum: Beyblade Discussion (https://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-Beyblade-Discussion) +--- Forum: Beyblade Customizations (https://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-Beyblade-Customizations) +---- Forum: Metal Fight Customizations (https://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-Metal-Fight-Customizations) +---- Thread: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion (/Thread-MFB-Standard-Competitive-Customs-List-and-Public-Discussion) |
RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Tri - Mar. 06, 2014 Phantom being knocked out by a stamina custom like you said is all because if Phantom's recoil, not the actual stamina custom. In my opinion, I say rid of Phantom for stamina just because Duo is just much popular, consistent, and safe really. Phantom MF deserves to stay. It's defintely competitively viable still and is freakish annoying to knock out, haha. (Also Duo B : D I almost think deserves more looking into for the list. It counters spin equalizers very well I think, even matching up to SA165EWD/BWD). RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Mar. 06, 2014 Personally I prefer SA165EWD but I'll give Duo B: D a shot later seeing as my B: D performs really well and see how it does vs F230. If it beats it and isn't too easy to KO, then I agree it should be up there, though it'll be weird putting my prejudice against that tip from how much it was spammed with Phantom despite being outclassed by my beloved TH170 back before the spin stealers came. RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - DRAGON KING - Mar. 06, 2014 Tri: it's not all because of phantom's recoil, it might not have gotten KOed on something like TH170SD. It was probably a combo of phantom's recoil and B: D horrible defense. On the topic of B: D, I'd like to see Reviser (probably Genbull and killerken too, but they're recoil might be a bit much on such an easy to KO tip.) Dragooon B: D get a spot, but it probably won't happen with SA165EWD/F230CF/GCF around. RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Mar. 06, 2014 (Mar. 06, 2014 6:52 AM)TheLibraKing Wrote: Tri: it's not all because of phantom's recoil, it might not have gotten KOed on something like TH170SD. It was probably a combo of phantom's recoil and B: D horrible defense. Duo vs Phantom has always been dependent on the individual wheels, phantom loses to spin steal and is ridiculously easy to KO due to its recoil no matter what tip it's on - which IS the main factor we're looking at here. Rock has a solo spin time very similar to Burn (especially the 0 Cylinder rock), Burn's solo spin time is better than Basalt's too IIRC, heck, Burn's solo spin is better than Genbull Genbull. Recoil will do that to you. I'd oppose adding B: D to Dragooon, it just doesn't have the defense, even with weak launching, to make it a better option than SA165EWD, especially with Dragooon setups being unstable therefore not making nearly as good use of B: D's ability to stay upright as Duo does - and seeing as B: D doesn't keep them upright too well, they benefit more from something that gives them LAD (so when they topple they lose spin at a slower rate) more than they do from its precession (which is why SA165EWD in Zero-G Attack mode works quite nicely for them, not sure but I tried it quickly today and it actually seemed worse than normal mode on duo somehow, though that is probably just me not doing enough rounds, but still the difference seems much more distinct with them than for Duo). That's my theory anyway, but the main thing is how ridiculously easy it is to KO Dragooon B: D. @TBD: You mentioned TB outspinning CS - what combos were you talking about? Funnily enough, I find an MSF-H (and using TH170's heights liberally) seems to help with a lot of things CS otherwise loses to (MSF-H Revizer Killerken BD145CS was problematic without MSF-H - may be my CS conditions though - but not for MSF-H, CS @170 I think it was). Not quite as safe a margin as TB stamina wise still, but on the other hand, much, much harder to KO - aggressive enough defense customs pose a pretty big threat to TB, but are not reliable against MSF-H+CS from quickly trying a few things. For CS at least, I am quite sure MSF-H is almost outright superior, though I guess it could struggle in the 1v1 (but that depends on how things go with KO's, especially with TH170 height shenanigans). Really, really liking MSF-H Genbull Genbull TH170CS overall, will probably use it if we get a standard format tournament going out here. RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Mar. 06, 2014 OOOOPS Accidental Double Post. Guess it's good enough to not bother the staff about merging it or deleting this but yeah, my bad. Some more specific responses to your post, TBD: (Mar. 05, 2014 8:37 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Another big reason is, with Bahamdia's thin shape, making contact with everything you can manage is important, and the way the Chrome Wheels contact points are oriented (notably the fact that Bahamdia has zero smash anywhere on its underside), BD145 generally gives you a more universally applicable height. When you take stability, range, recoil, points of contact and other variables into the equation, having an Attack type that's exceptionally tall compared to a lot of the meta isn't exactly optimal for the most part.The meta is almost entirely 145 and up, which Bahamdia on SA165 hits just fine, and BD145 isn't going to help tooooo much against stuff below that anyway tbh. If you're against something lower you could probably just bank harder and hit them anyway given Bahamdia's massive girth. Quote:Another reason, is that one of the things that makes Bahamdia Dragooon BD145 so versatile, is its prowess in Attack vs. Attack matchups, which SA165 doesn't have. At that height, 145 Wyvang Attack types can take you down easily, which is untrue for BD145 (actually been in that matchup in competition a couple times, and having a custom that doubles as a consistent anti-attacker is a really great thing to have).Valid point though I'm surprised Bahamdia actually works that well in the first place, would expect something like Wyvang to work better in general given extra weight and more compact design though I guess BD145 would help with the former. Still not enough to keep something that effective off the list though. Quote:Lastly, though this isn't as significant, and results could vary from person to person, but I find the BD145 variant considerably more effective against Dragooon F230, which is one of this custom's primary functions (SA165 can still take it out most of the time, which is the reason I don't consider it a big drawback, but consistency is never a bad thing to have).IDK when I'm choosing an attack type I care more about how they handle defense than a combo which like every attack combo handles with ease for me no matter how it's launched - Flash SA165 and any given Bahamdia Dragooon combo have no trouble with it, doubt right spin Bahamdia is going to be too fussed by it either but I don't want to snap my F230 trying it out. Quote:Oh yah, BTW (and I really don't wanna sound like I don't believe you here, because I do), the BD145 variant actually OSes E230RSF a lot more reliably than the SA165 variant does for me. Don't know why (actually, I'm still testing with MSF-M and R2F, so if you're using MSF-L/RF that might be effecting something).MSF-L and RF probably has a lot to do with it, part of why I listed them specifically, but I don't outspin MSF-H Genbull Genbull E230RSF with them on BD145 so idk. Keep in mind I'm using Zero-G Attack mode, too, just in case. Quote:Again, I'm not saying SA165 is bad (on the contrary, it works pretty darn well against a lot of thing - perhaps arguably top-tier worthy), but I don't really see any great reason to list it given BD145 works better for me (I wouldn't necessarily be strongly opposed to adding it, but you know, if BD145 is truly better, what's the point? LOL).BD145 isn't better against E230, even without the whole SA165 outspinning some E230 customs thing. I know you personally don't face many E230 combos, but it's the best Defense track there is tbh, so I consider things being more effective against it quite important. Quote:On Genbull Genbull for Defense... eeeehhh, Genbull Genbull E230CS seems more like Balance to me to be honest. Genbull is definitely not "good" as the bottom Chrome Wheel on an E230 Defense custom if you're actually looking to avoid KO from my experience. It also really isn't all that hard to hit either.Are you harsh banking your defense combo or not using E230 in "boost" mode or whatever? Because a) it really isn't easy to hit over especially at the start of the battle and b) there's still that gap in boost mode with Revizer which has slopes and gaps on the bottom of it that Flash SA165 for example does hit - with deadly repercussions for the Revizer combo. Genbull is much less prone to this, as it slopes inwards and doesn't have all that much to hit there. Unless you're hitting Revizer side on while it's on E230 which seems kinda unlikely to me, I honestly think Genbull is outright superior. Quote:IDK... my brain isn't working particularly well right now, but all I know is that I wouldn't use Genbull Genbull on an E230 Defense custom if I had other options. Too much recoil for me (the extra Stamina is great, but it's a Defense custom after all - at this point it would come down to whether you want to base what's listed in the Defense section on what's better at Defense, or just better in general, assuming Genbull^2 handles more stuff, which I can't comment on since I've never tried it against anything other than Attack).I'm not certain about genbull genull outspinning Revizer Killerken with both on E230 - been getting weird results today, but I don't really have two suitable tips and launchers to test it properly. Still as I said I actually find it much harder to handle Genbull than Revizer as the bottom chrome wheel for E230 defense, for whatever reason. Also keep in mind we still have Duo up there on defense and Duo is a helluva lot easier to deal with than Genbull Genbull E230 lol. Quote:Sorry if any of that sounded unclear. I don't actually feel so good right now. I think I need something to eat...I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets so focussed on a long post that they forget to eat and only notice when their brain starts having trouble putting words together. Probably not good for either of us though. Quote:[This is about TB] ...(that thing really does have incredible Stamina compared to most Bottoms, especially on higher Tracks; certainly far and away better than it is in LTD. I actually haven't found anything that can out-spin it in a mirror match on Duo 230 (we are talking about Genbull here, but the fact stands that TB can exhibit unbelievable Stamina (it usually benefits Genbull more than Duo IIRC, actually (and even if CS does do better overall, which is arguably inapplicable given they behave differently (TB is more of a pure Stamina Bottom, whereas CS is slightly aggressive and doesn't provide as much pure endurance), that doesn't necessarily make TB an uncompetitive option (gosh I'm using a lot of parentheses))))).I wish I had two Duo's, but from experience, are you using a Mint D (I know you like SD but I'm more familiar with the former and it might be worth checking in case SD sucks vs TB or something)? Also, you should try it vs 145-height DEFENSE, probably RSF or CS, shoot aggressively, see if it knocks it over - remember I get better results with WD, which TB tilts even wider than, but similar things are why I haven't made too strong an argument for adding it haha. Sounds like you'd support moving {MSF{-H}} genbull genbull TH170/SR200CS (not TB) to balance, so I'll probs propose that if I haven't already. And probably moving Duo 230MB back to stamina because as the metagame has shifted it really belongs there. Quote:Support the removal of Genbull Genbull from E230 Defense (It just has higher recoil than I'd like a Defense custom to have; yes, it can take hits decently, but nowhere near as well against the most prevalent heights as Revizer or Killerken can, so, if anything, I'd just add CS as an option besides MB on Genbull/Girago Genbull E230MB if you really wanted a defensive-ish Genbull ^2 E230 custom in there)I still don't get how you're getting so much contact, maybe I bank my attack combos a little hard or something but even then, I've played around with things like Orojya Bahamdia SA165RF specifically to land hits and Genbull still did fine, and as I mentioned it generally seems better than revizer to me on E230 because things get in the gap with Revizer and it has those slopes right at the edge that have quite a bit of recoil. We need to try more tips on these sorts of E230 customs, but FWIW I think most of the defense tips other than CS have use on Genbull Genbull E230 to a degree. Quote:I'd also like to note that, while you mentioned Revizer not having the lowest-recoil underside, that Revizer's edges are much thicker and straighter than Genbull's, which means its underside is much, much, much more difficult to make contact with (actually, the problem with Genbull may not be so much the recoil from its underside as it is the fact that the underside is so exposed).On E230? Revizer's underside is lower but there's still a noticeable gap for most things to get into, so it's much easier for common heights to hit. Are you maybe using Wyvang? I could see fitting in there being an issue for it compared to Flash and Bahamdia, which are what I've been using. In flash's case, with the amount of leverage its wings give it, it isn't too bad at hitting flat faces hard, to the point I imagine slopes are harder for it, which could also explain the results. Both of these things give Genbull enough use to be up there anyway. Quote:Support the addition of CS to Genbull Genbull TH170 customs (Adding MSF(-H) could use some looking into, but seeing as that's a very major change as opposed to adding CS to a custom that already uses it on a very similar Track, it'd take some investigation)As mentioned, I think my explanation as to why it works is p solid on this one when combined with similar combinations benefiting from it as well. Will see what others think, seeing as I'm obviously biased with regards to thinking it deserves to be there. RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - [)ragon - Mar. 06, 2014 The TB vs. CS matches were on Duo 230 IIRC. The E230 testing was with Balro Balro CH145R2F, Wyvang Wyvang W145R2F (representative of what's probably the most high-powered/heavily used attacker in the game; results on it are usually more relevant than most), and MF-H Flash Orion H145R2F vs Genbull Genbull/Revizer Revizer E230 [Boost] RB. Genbull was essentially far easier to knock off balance and KO than Revizer was, by quite a noticeable amount. While there still is a gap between Revizer and E230, it isn't as accessible as the gap underneath Genbull, and I haven't found anything that can really exploit Revizer's gap yet (although I've been playing around with mostly 145 - height Attack types). Again, I'm not saying that Genbull Genbull E230 is carp, but there can be quite a wide gap between "good" and "top-tier." I really can't do much more testing right now, so just take what I've already said as my overall opinion on what should be done. I'd propose: TheBlackDragon Wrote: That. I don't really have much time at all to test/write this week, as I'm kinda really busy with other stuff ATM, so I'm just gonna let you guys handle everything. But yah, that's what I think should be posted as the new CC list. Just take that as my overall opinion on everything. RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Mar. 06, 2014 ... I just gave you two things that are good and easily exploit the gap, and you're using combinations with limited reach or that are too short to exploit it too. After playing around with Revizer/Genbull Dragooon for the metal face thing that's being discussed, Revizer also seems more recoil prone as an underside wheel than Genbull there. Personally, I just do not think you've adequate justification or grounds on which to call for its removal, especially as you've openly admitted you rarely face E230 defense. As for those attack types being the most popular, Phantom B: D was also very popular for a while - what is most popular is not always what is best. I find Revizer Revizer being harder to destabilize than Genbull Genbull pretty odd, what tip are you using? I would expect Dragooon to be destabilizing them easier and it doesn't do that too much for me but it can depend on the tip (and in RDF's case, how worn it is). RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - DRAGON KING - Mar. 06, 2014 What about adding D125 to genbull dragooon T125GCF? RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - [)ragon - Mar. 06, 2014 (Mar. 06, 2014 5:01 PM)th!nk Wrote: ... I just gave you two things that are good and easily exploit the gap, and you're using combinations with limited reach or that are too short to exploit it too. After playing around with Revizer/Genbull Dragooon for the metal face thing that's being discussed, Revizer also seems more recoil prone as an underside wheel than Genbull there. Personally, I just do not think you've adequate justification or grounds on which to call for its removal, especially as you've openly admitted you rarely face E230 defense. I test against E230 Defense, very, very often. I don't know where you got that (unless you're talking about tournament experience, in which case, you are partially correct). Oh, I realized now that I did forget to mention that I tested against Flash SA165 (which battered Genbull to carp and back, after hitting like 50% against Revizer, so yah; Genbull is definitely inferior in that matchup for me). I haven't tested against right-spin Bahamdia SA165 yet, but just to say, that Attack variant was removed from competitive list drafts because it wasn't consistent enough, so it really isn't a very good example of an opponent a top-tier Defense custom would have to be evaluated against. Wyvang 145 is the definitely arguably the best Attack variant in our meta. It's insanely high-powered and consistent, and easily capable of tearing Defense to shreds in a tournament. It's probably the most reliable Attack type out there, and certainly far and away the most heavily used. That said, I think everyone here would agree that it's probably the most important variant for a Defense custom to beat. Comparing it to Phantom B : D is kinda disproportionate, TBH. Actually, just to say, Balro is perfectly capable of reaching an E230 Attack type, and KOing it metal-to metal. While it may not be able to exploit the gap on Revizer, it can exploit Genbull's lower edge/underside easily, which is also the case with Wyvang 145. Even if a couple select SA165 Attack customs that aren't even considered competitive can do more to Revizer than they can to Genbull (which I'm still very skeptical about, given Flash SA165 flattens MSF-H Genbull Genbull E230RB for me, while Revizer on the same setup gives it some serious trouble), the fact that already top-tier opponents (including the most dangerous and heavily used ones) can mess it up real bad, then turn around and get whipped by Revizer says something about its legitimacy in the meta at this point. We should both do formal testing for this, because our experiences with the "same" stuff is really kinda disturbingly different LOL. I can't do it today, but perhaps tomorrow afternoon. What would you prefer we test against? I'd like results against Wyvang, but I can't remember if you have two yet. Maybe Flash SA165 (I still don't think it's as relevant, but it definitely works well and you seem to like it/get good results against Revizer with it, so...)? I've been using RB this whole time. Essentially, what happens, is the opponent connects with Genbull's underside/lower edge, and knock it off-balance really horribly, then KOs on the next hit after it's wobbling like nuts if the first hit doesn't send it flying. With Revizer, it just sits there and takes hits. Against Flash SA165, It did take a couple hits to the slopes lower down its edge (the part you said had a bunch of recoil IIRC - correct me on that if I'm forgetting), but it didn't usually result in a KO, and the same hit to Genbull tore it apart. Something weird's going on here. Hopefully formal testing will clear that up. EDIT: Holy carp just read the advanced discussion. 110% support the addition of Bearing Drive to Duo Stamina customs. I feel like that part and the opinions surrounding it have been horribly littered with misconceptions, mostly regarding its horrific Defense that allows it to be "KOed by wind" (the evidence for which doesn't actually exist), and its apparent height disadvantage (also evidently nonexistent, especially as we now consider SA165/160 competitive Stamina parts). The thing is an incredible mid-height Stamina powerhouse - far better than S165/W145 on Duo from my experience. OMG that would be so great. RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Mar. 06, 2014 About to sleep, but try something other than RB. RSF or RDF should provide a bit more stability at the start of the match, though not sure if Revizer Revizer's balance issues will suit them... I've not used my RB for this stuff, was using RSF (worn) and RDF. That's pretty much my final suggestion haha. That difference is nowhere near what I see with Flash, so I cannot explain that - but as I said, I see the opposite, it works better against Revizer. but enough that I don't think it deserves to go so easily. I was talking about Bahamdia Dragooon SA165, not a right spin one (while Orojya Bahamdia is p sweet, Bahamdia Dragooon is more practical haha). No, I don't have two balros or two wyvang's, and my remark about Wyvang Wyvang was just a response to the argument you used, not the contents thereof, as it's a pet peeve of mine. I'm afraid I legitimately don't have time to test it formally amongst the other things I'm working on right now, and I'm also not really comfortable wearing my parts on formal testing of a combination I'll probably never use (as I don't think I'm gonna have enough genbulls). I know it sucks, but this is a case where I'm going to let it be, having said my piece, and see what the consensus amongst others is. If no one else actually bothers to chip in either way, then we'll see but yeah sorry man, :c Oh and the remark about you and E230 was w/ regards to tournaments and the effect of that, but it was probably off the mark anyway, given the flash SA165 thing. RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - [)ragon - Mar. 06, 2014 I'll get some testing with those two up against MSF-H Revizer Revizer/Genbull Genbull E230RSF if I can later this week. Oh yah, just because I'm so supportive of it, even though I've already enthusiastically exclaimed my excitement and put it in my user title, I'm gonna be obnoxious and remind y'all: #DuoBearingDriveFTW!!!
RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Wombat - Mar. 07, 2014 (Mar. 06, 2014 8:35 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: I'll get some testing with those two up against MSF-H Revizer Revizer/Genbull Genbull E230RSF if I can later this week. ^^^THIS. I've always thought B:D should be top tier, not just for Duo, but for Dragooon Stamina as well. Yes, people have always used its bad defense against it, but the next-best option, SA165EWD, doesn't take hits too well either. IMO the weight of the Synchrom + Left Spin offsets the bad defense to an extent, making it a viable choice, and people will continue to use it regardless of whether it gets put on the list or not. RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - DRAGON KING - Mar. 07, 2014 (Mar. 07, 2014 2:20 AM)Wombat Wrote:i agree with everything this guy just said.(Mar. 06, 2014 8:35 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: I'll get some testing with those two up against MSF-H Revizer Revizer/Genbull Genbull E230RSF if I can later this week. RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - DrPepsidew - Mar. 07, 2014 Okay, when people acknowledge the lack of defense a stamina custom has, isn't that a point of a stamina type? Like, attack types don't generally have stamina, but they knock out stamina types, as in the rock-paper-scissors triangle, even though now it's like a tetrahedron. I do not have RSF but I am willing to test. I love bearing drive stamina, I just don't use it because there are people like Kaboom!!! in the VA meta XD RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Mar. 07, 2014 It's vastly inferior to SA165EWD for Dragooon stuff, as I mentioned, especially in terms of spin stealing if you put SA165 in ZGA mode. Stamina types still need enough defense to stay in the stadium to actually outspin things at all. If you cannot stay in the stadium against defense types, then you're far too niche. RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Thunder Dome - Mar. 07, 2014 Thunder Dome Wrote:Here are my opinions on the current tier list |