(Dec. 10, 2020  5:34 AM)Isaiah.burley Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  4:19 AM)Vtryuga Wrote: Ah well we aren't looking at this objectively are we. One thing that I would like to point out is that Lean was a rookie blader when he first met Shu, after that he kept on training with Shu during what I presume to be GT where he challenged free and won. After that he was no longer considered a rookie and in the anime also he was regarded as a very strong blader, who beat the likes of Free. People were taking him seriously at that time, i would safely presume lean has been a student of shu since the beginning /end of GT at the very least. There is a one year timeskip between GT and sparking. Considering all these facts lean doesn't seem to be that overpowered at all.

I get it beating legends always will bring hate, and the way he defeated aiga and in the battle royale, it did seem a bit ridiculous at the very most . But to completely negate what has been said about lean just because he defeated legends is wrong in my humble opinion

It wasn’t GT when he battled Free. Free stated that he made a new bey solely because he lost to Lain, and we saw his new bey in the beginning of the series, so it would be fair to say around the first episodes of sparking is when Lain beat Free. Also they all had sparking launchers to add to that. It’s completely different where you win you’re first battle against one of the top 4 bladers, then beat No.5, No.6, and No.11 in a battle royale, beat the “Champion” with almost no effort, then beat the No.1 blader. At least it took Aiga 28 episodes to beat Valt while Lean beat them both like it was almost nothing. He clearly has plot armor, also it’s weird that only Hikaru, Hyuga and Lean have thus “flare” thing.

(Dec. 10, 2020  6:03 AM)Vtryuga Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  5:34 AM)Isaiah.burley Wrote: It wasn’t GT when he battled Free. Free stated that he made a new bey solely because he lost to Lain, and we saw his new bey in the beginning of the series, so it would be fair to say around the first episodes of sparking is when Lain beat Free. Also they all had sparking launchers to add to that. It’s completely different where you win you’re first battle against one of the top 4 bladers, then beat No.5, No.6, and No.11 in a battle royale, beat the “Champion” with almost no effort, then beat the No.1 blader. At least it took Aiga 28 episodes to beat Valt while Lean beat them both like it was almost nothing. He clearly has plot armor, also it’s weird that only Hikaru, Hyuga and Lean have thus “flare” thing.

Well they never specified when he trained with Shu( which is a terrible mistake plot wise I have to say) therefore i assumed that they did it in the timeskip between GT and sparking (1 Year i guess). If we make that assumption then i do believe that Leans power level makes sense as he was considered a beyblade prodigy by Shu. If that is not the case then I would also- like you- call BS on Leans power.

(Dec. 10, 2020  5:50 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  5:47 AM)Isaiah.burley Wrote: That’s literally what plot armor is. If Valt beats Lean then the story changes. You’re proving my point as in Lean “HAD” to beat Valt, for the story to continue as a whole.

Lain didn't have to beat Valt so he could keep his status as big and powerful. Lain had to beat Valt so he could move onto Shu. Shu vs Lain is a very important story moment, as you know. If Valt beat Lain Lain can't move onto fighting Shu, when he has to fight Shu cause its important.

(Dec. 10, 2020  6:28 AM)Isaiah.burley Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  5:50 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: Lain didn't have to beat Valt so he could keep his status as big and powerful. Lain had to beat Valt so he could move onto Shu. Shu vs Lain is a very important story moment, as you know. If Valt beat Lain Lain can't move onto fighting Shu, when he has to fight Shu cause its important.

It doesn’t matter as long as the story changes as a whole. He had plot armor CLEARLY as most of his battles (if he lost) the story would change.

(Dec. 10, 2020  6:38 AM)Vtryuga Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  6:28 AM)Isaiah.burley Wrote: It doesn’t matter as long as the story changes as a whole. He had plot armor CLEARLY as most of his battles (if he lost) the story would change.

AGAIN as i Said Plot armour is a device that is used to progress the plot; otherwise a rookie will never be able to defeat a legend. think about this in real life ; in chess there are child prodigies and for example the current world champion Magnus Carlsen; had defeated the former world champion at the age of 20. He had even drawn with Garry Kasparov when he was 12 years old. If Sparking was a show about chess; wouldd you have complained that magnus Carlsen had plot armour as he defeated the world champion with such ease? No right?

(Dec. 10, 2020  6:51 AM)Isaiah.burley Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  6:38 AM)Vtryuga Wrote: AGAIN as i Said Plot armour is a device that is used to progress the plot; otherwise a rookie will never be able to defeat a legend. think about this in real life ; in chess there are child prodigies and for example the current world champion Magnus Carlsen; had defeated the former world champion at the age of 20. He had even drawn with Garry Kasparov when he was 12 years old. If Sparking was a show about chess; wouldd you have complained that magnus Carlsen had plot armour as he defeated the world champion with such ease? No right?

So now that your admitting to him having plot armor it’s fair to say that he doesn’t use the strength on his own. It doesn’t really take anything away from him as he’s still the strongest blader in sparking. It’s just something that’s pretty obvious that he has it.

(Dec. 10, 2020  6:53 AM)Zeutron Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  6:51 AM)Isaiah.burley Wrote: So now that your admitting to him having plot armor it’s fair to say that he doesn’t use the strength on his own. It doesn’t really take anything away from him as he’s still the strongest blader in sparking. It’s just something that’s pretty obvious that he has it.

I wasn’t part of your debate or anything and I’m not trying to offend anyone but if it doesn’t change the fact that he is the strongest blader why bring it up?

(Dec. 10, 2020  6:51 AM)Isaiah.burley Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  6:38 AM)Vtryuga Wrote: AGAIN as i Said Plot armour is a device that is used to progress the plot; otherwise a rookie will never be able to defeat a legend. think about this in real life ; in chess there are child prodigies and for example the current world champion Magnus Carlsen; had defeated the former world champion at the age of 20. He had even drawn with Garry Kasparov when he was 12 years old. If Sparking was a show about chess; wouldd you have complained that magnus Carlsen had plot armour as he defeated the world champion with such ease? No right?

So now that your admitting to him having plot armor it’s fair to say that he doesn’t use the strength on his own. It doesn’t really take anything away from him as he’s still the strongest blader in sparking. It’s just something that’s pretty obvious that he has it.

(Dec. 10, 2020  7:04 AM)Vtryuga Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  6:51 AM)Isaiah.burley Wrote: So now that your admitting to him having plot armor it’s fair to say that he doesn’t use the strength on his own. It doesn’t really take anything away from him as he’s still the strongest blader in sparking. It’s just something that’s pretty obvious that he has it.

Taking my analogy further; I asked a simple question ; would you consider magnus carlsen to have plot armour if Sparking was instaed a show about chess?  I can understand your point about it being a bit too early for him defeating all the legends; but that doesnt necessarily mean that every win for lean is attributed to plot armour.

Even i agree that leans battle royale was comletely BS and his battle with aiga was disappointing .

(Dec. 10, 2020  7:04 AM)Vtryuga Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  6:51 AM)Isaiah.burley Wrote: So now that your admitting to him having plot armor it’s fair to say that he doesn’t use the strength on his own. It doesn’t really take anything away from him as he’s still the strongest blader in sparking. It’s just something that’s pretty obvious that he has it.

Taking my analogy further; I asked a simple question ; would you consider magnus carlsen to have plot armour if Sparking was instaed a show about chess?  I can understand your point about it being a bit too early for him defeating all the legends; but that doesnt necessarily mean that every win for lean is attributed to plot armour.

Even i agree that leans battle royale was comletely BS and his battle with aiga was disappointing .

(Dec. 10, 2020  11:29 AM)g2_ Wrote: Valt and Rantaro vs Aiga and Ranjiro.

(Dec. 10, 2020  6:38 AM)Vtryuga Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  6:28 AM)Isaiah.burley Wrote: It doesn’t matter as long as the story changes as a whole. He had plot armor CLEARLY as most of his battles (if he lost) the story would change.

AGAIN as i Said Plot armour is a device that is used to progress the plot; otherwise a rookie will never be able to defeat a legend. think about this in real life ; in chess there are child prodigies and for example the current world champion Magnus Carlsen; had defeated the former world champion at the age of 20. He had even drawn with Garry Kasparov when he was 12 years old. If Sparking was a show about chess; wouldd you have complained that magnus Carlsen had plot armour as he defeated the world champion with such ease? No right?

(Dec. 10, 2020  7:07 AM)Isaiah.burley Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  7:04 AM)Vtryuga Wrote: Taking my analogy further; I asked a simple question ; would you consider magnus carlsen to have plot armour if Sparking was instaed a show about chess?  I can understand your point about it being a bit too early for him defeating all the legends; but that doesnt necessarily mean that every win for lean is attributed to plot armour.

Even i agree that leans battle royale was comletely BS and his battle with aiga was disappointing .

I mean obviously but there’s no such thing as plot armor in real life.

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(Dec. 10, 2020  7:04 AM)Vtryuga Wrote: Taking my analogy further; I asked a simple question ; would you consider magnus carlsen to have plot armour if Sparking was instaed a show about chess?  I can understand your point about it being a bit too early for him defeating all the legends; but that doesnt necessarily mean that every win for lean is attributed to plot armour.

Even i agree that leans battle royale was comletely BS and his battle with aiga was disappointing .

Long story short it depends on how a character is portrayed. Like Lui in S1 was portrayed as the best blader and has never been defeated, so him winning his first battle and then on wouldn’t be a reach. But Lean was just a random kid trained by Shu for a little, then he just jumped on all the legends.

(Dec. 10, 2020  12:00 PM)Admiral W Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  11:29 AM)g2_ Wrote: Valt and Rantaro vs Aiga and Ranjiro.

Confirmed?

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(Dec. 10, 2020  6:38 AM)Vtryuga Wrote: AGAIN as i Said Plot armour is a device that is used to progress the plot; otherwise a rookie will never be able to defeat a legend. think about this in real life ; in chess there are child prodigies and for example the current world champion Magnus Carlsen; had defeated the former world champion at the age of 20. He had even drawn with Garry Kasparov when he was 12 years old. If Sparking was a show about chess; wouldd you have complained that magnus Carlsen had plot armour as he defeated the world champion with such ease? No right?

Just to clarify something. Plot armor is not a desirable element to include in a story. It's used to get a character somewhere they can't believably get to. Its a weakness of a story, not a strength. The way to avoid it is to build a character across the story with clear, discernible development and growth in the skills needed to accomplish a particular goal. That way the audience doesn't have to suspend their disbelief to accept the accomplishment of the goal. With that, the growth has to be believable, that can be accomplished by showing the work acquiring the necessary skills for the goal.

(Dec. 10, 2020  1:29 PM)Vtryuga Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  12:00 PM)Admiral W Wrote: Confirmed?

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Just to clarify something. Plot armor is not a desirable element to include in a story. It's used to get a character somewhere they can't believably get to. Its a weakness of a story, not a strength. The way to avoid it is to build a character across the story with clear, discernible development and growth in the skills needed to accomplish a particular goal. That way the audience doesn't have to suspend their disbelief to accept the accomplishment of the goal. With that, the growth has to be believable, that can be accomplished by showing the work acquiring the necessary skills for the goal.

Well i do agree, that why i was assuming lean trained with shu during GT, I also said that if he started training at beginning of sparking then it would be unbelievable, the level of growth of lean. Also I was comparing lean with Child prodigy Magnus Carlsen who managed to draw with Kasparov (world Champion)at the age of 13. (Though its a pretty bad analogy as magnus has also worked extremely hard lol)

(Dec. 10, 2020  1:43 PM)Admiral W Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  1:29 PM)Vtryuga Wrote: Well i do agree, that why i was assuming lean trained with shu during GT, I also said that if he started training at beginning of sparking then it would be unbelievable, the level of growth of lean. Also I was comparing lean with Child prodigy Magnus Carlsen who managed to draw with Kasparov (world Champion)at the age of 13. (Though its a pretty bad analogy as magnus has also worked extremely hard lol)

The thing is, if he trained with Shu during GT then we need have seen that for it to be effective in adding more believability to his power.

(Dec. 10, 2020  1:47 PM)Valtryek Aoi Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  1:43 PM)Admiral W Wrote: The thing is, if he trained with Shu during GT then we need have seen that for it to be effective in adding more believability to his power.

We barely saw any of Lui's or Free's past training did we? Could have just been some rookies just like Lean, already topping the rankings in a short period of time.

(Dec. 10, 2020  1:56 PM)Admiral W Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  1:47 PM)Valtryek Aoi Wrote: We barely saw any of Lui's or Free's past training did we? Could have just been some rookies just like Lean, already topping the rankings in a short period of time.

That comparison isn't analogous. We're talking about a rookie blader who is taking down top ranked bladers. Literal legends. With Free and Lui it was established they had been blading for quite some time and their status as blading titans had already been cemented.

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Free was the Number 1 Blader in the World. His status more than justifies his power. Same with Lui. He was Japan's top blader and strongest member of the Supreme Four.

(Dec. 10, 2020  12:00 PM)Admiral W Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  11:29 AM)g2_ Wrote: Valt and Rantaro vs Aiga and Ranjiro.

Confirmed?

(Dec. 10, 2020  2:12 PM)Vtryuga Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  1:56 PM)Admiral W Wrote: That comparison isn't analogous. We're talking about a rookie blader who is taking down top ranked bladers. Literal legends. With Free and Lui it was established they had been blading for quite some time and their status as blading titans had already been cemented.

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Free was the Number 1 Blader in the World. His status more than justifies his power. Same with Lui. He was Japan's top blader and strongest member of the Supreme Four.

True but then again; Lean was also called a prodigy and a super strong blader. I do not think he was considered a rookie at the time of legend festival; he was regarded as an extremely strong contender amongst the legends. 

I do think that if the manga backstory is used in the anime then i believe that it would make perfect sense for lean as a character.

(Dec. 10, 2020  12:43 PM)Valtryek Aoi Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  7:07 AM)Isaiah.burley Wrote: I mean obviously but there’s no such thing as plot armor in real life.

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Long story short it depends on how a character is portrayed. Like Lui in S1 was portrayed as the best blader and has never been defeated, so him winning his first battle and then on wouldn’t be a reach. But Lean was just a random kid trained by Shu for a little, then he just jumped on all the legends.

Aight, Lean wasn't just some 'random kid'. He had already been a blader with a lot of potential from the start, which a reason why Shu wanted to train him in the first place. He trained with Shu for an unknown period of time, developed his flare some more, made Variant Lucifer and still trained even more. If you assumed all that was probably a year or within the span of a year, then he's no different than someone like than the protags who all skyrocketed to world stage and kicked butt within a year. Not completely unreasonable to say that Lean could do the same.

(Dec. 10, 2020  1:47 PM)Valtryek Aoi Wrote:

(Dec. 10, 2020  1:43 PM)Admiral W Wrote: The thing is, if he trained with Shu during GT then we need have seen that for it to be effective in adding more believability to his power.

We barely saw any of Lui's or Free's past training did we? Could have just been some rookies just like Lean, already topping the rankings in a short period of time.

(Dec. 10, 2020  2:49 PM)EarthHelios Wrote: Free was using a normal launcher. It flew sparks but he did not use a sparking launcher