Quote:V2 is definitely not in the same league as V1 and Lost Longinus. 

Quote:GV is untested

(Apr. 15, 2017  5:36 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Hm OK, why is there suddenly little objection to Dark Deathscyther's ban when it has been SPAMming in all of our Winning Combinations lists for months and people seemed so against it back then hah? I am very sure that I brought up the need to ban that Dual Layer way earlier and I was met with a wall of people who appeared to find the game still plenty fun... Has anything changed? Because for me and definitely other Bladers I know, Burst has been a boring game for a long while, to the point where we lost interest in it and are now unlikely to order any new products unless absolutely primordial. There are other factors, but the Deathscyther family SPAM has been a key element for us.

For sure, I am glad for this change of heart, but it is not at all what I was expecting today.

(Apr. 15, 2017  10:23 AM)Bastillon Wrote: Personally, I don't really think D2 should be banned flat-out. Never tested out Odin, so not going to comment on that. But yeah, D2 definitely has its counters like Deathscyther (D2 always bursts before Deathscyther does despite Deathscyther being worn down), Minoboros, and unconventional KO/double burst combos like SKX or W2FX, not to mention the recent A2 that I've tested on and RBv4 W2 (according to @[FIREFIRE CPB]) on Yielding are slowly catching up to match it's power. Also, L2 needs a lot more than just K2 as a counter, and so far we've seen D2 should be used as a counter against the L2 meta.

(Apr. 15, 2017  2:38 PM)Kai-V Wrote: If the opponent also varies their launch strength, then I am quite sure that it is possible to render Lost Longinus' weak launch mostly useless. There is just no reason only the Lost Longius user would be able to weak launch and steal spin or burst the opponent hah.

(Apr. 15, 2017  4:09 PM)Bastillon Wrote: The main issue with this would be a very tedious launch strength recalibration, which is twice as worse when you factor in at least one point won by L2 is necessary in order to know how hard the opponent is launching at (unless you decide to watch every single video footage of your opponent and make a very detailed profile of them to calculate specifically how powerful they would launch L2), or you simply manage to predict the opponent somehow (which is not exactly reliable). Also, launch strength doesn't really matter anyway since you'd know how would the opponent expect to win, like Spread with Hold is pretty much spin steal or KO, while Gravity Xtreme is simply burst finish or KO. Altering launch strength doesn't change much because you're not going to stop Gravity Xtreme with a weaker launch, nor will that be effective against Spread Hold since it's spin equalization, which means if you pick Spread Revolve against it you'll win no matter what.

(Apr. 15, 2017  10:23 AM)Bastillon Wrote: Personally, I don't really think D2 should be banned flat-out. Never tested out Odin, so not going to comment on that. But yeah, D2 definitely has its counters like Deathscyther (D2 always bursts before Deathscyther does despite Deathscyther being worn down), Minoboros, and unconventional KO/double burst combos like SKX or W2FX, not to mention the recent A2 that I've tested on and RBv4 W2 (according to @[FIREFIRE CPB]) on Yielding are slowly catching up to match it's power. Also, L2 needs a lot more than just K2 as a counter, and so far we've seen D2 should be used as a counter against the L2 meta.

(Apr. 15, 2017  5:36 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Hm OK, why is there suddenly little objection to Dark Deathscyther's ban when it has been SPAMming in all of our Winning Combinations lists for months and people seemed so against it back then hah? I am very sure that I brought up the need to ban that Dual Layer way earlier and I was met with a wall of people who appeared to find the game still plenty fun... Has anything changed? Because for me and definitely other Bladers I know, Burst has been a boring game for a long while, to the point where we lost interest in it and are now unlikely to order any new products unless absolutely primordial. There are other factors, but the Deathscyther family SPAM has been a key element for us.

For sure, I am glad for this change of heart, but it is not at all what I was expecting today.

(Apr. 15, 2017  10:23 AM)Bastillon Wrote: Personally, I don't really think D2 should be banned flat-out. Never tested out Odin, so not going to comment on that. But yeah, D2 definitely has its counters like Deathscyther (D2 always bursts before Deathscyther does despite Deathscyther being worn down), Minoboros, and unconventional KO/double burst combos like SKX or W2FX, not to mention the recent A2 that I've tested on and RBv4 W2 (according to @[FIREFIRE CPB]) on Yielding are slowly catching up to match it's power. Also, L2 needs a lot more than just K2 as a counter, and so far we've seen D2 should be used as a counter against the L2 meta.

(Apr. 15, 2017  4:20 PM)Kai-V Wrote: I was refering to Lost Longinus on Hold. I would not really expect to see much Lost Longinus on Xtreme.

(Apr. 15, 2017  4:29 PM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote: TBH I kinda disagree with this. Even if it's counters exsist, they aren't something you will mostly relie on to battle (except Deathscyther and Minobors but they can be countered very easily too so people will thing twice before using them esspecially in presents of L2 and other stong attacker) and after thinking alot they may just get back to D2 instead of using D as it's way safer. It's problem is kinda same as what Basalt did, sure it's not nearly as overpowered but problem is most of good things/Top-Tier can't beat it and things that can aren't nearly as good aginst everything else (possibly W2? But testing is needed). Also as only Deathscyther and Chaos can OS it (which won't stand even few sec against it's agressive contact points btw) many won't even bother using Attack as it iron walls most of them and Minoboros isn't as good against other things. Valkyrie is good answer to everything but it wears preventing many from using it + L2 will dominate any V combo without breaking sweat. Though I agree L2 may dominate once D2 banned so we should do some more testing and wait for atleast April release so maybe they can change meta completely.

(Apr. 15, 2017  4:36 PM)Kei Wrote: As I mentioned above, I agree that D2 does indeed have counters. The issue is that the only ones you've listed here that–to my knowledge–can consistently or somewhat consistently counter D2 are Deathscyther (an out-of-production, relatively quickly wearing Layer) and Minoboros (an also out-of-production Layer which does well against D2 but requires a higher level of skill to wield and really can only be used somewhat reliably in Deck Format finals because you'd be taking a gamble in the first stage of events in guessing when your opponent was going to use D2). Odin and Wyvern can also stand up to D2, but are more even than anything, meaning that the stronger launch/better balanced combo will probably win depending on the situation. The issue really isn't whether D2 can be beat with Stamina combos, but that it has such a strong combination of Stamina and Defense that no other Layer has, making Attack usage less viable across the board in the metagame.

(Apr. 15, 2017  5:30 PM)Bastillon Wrote: I'll just use L2SH as an example here. The only real counters to it are K2, B2 and Z2 (since those are burst resistant enough against low stamina L2, and the latter two layers are hardly consistent enough to resist bursting) for dual layers, and it's pretty clear that whoever gets LAD/precession would eventually win (except K2 which has plastic protrusions that adds a bit of stamina). This means there's a pretty good chance of winning against L2SH with Z2SR or something similar, regardless of launch power in most situations since the SF advantage is not with L2SH. As many have pointed out, L2 stops spinning abruptly. Despite this, neither B2 nor Z2 are reliable counters to L2 as L2 also possesses bursting properties, leaving K2 the only dual layer that can reliably counter L2. You really can't do anything against D2 with stamina combos, therefore spin finishes are out of the picture for now, leaving KO and burst combos the prime way to win against D2. As D2 itself can't burst finish others reliably, weaker layers are free to be used in these combos. This is also why I proposed that Spriggan Knuckle Xtreme can be a viable combo despite it being so easily bursted in other situations, because it's a viable KO combo while simultaneously capable of bursting/double burst D2. Therefore, you have to use attack combos against D2 to win in most cases.As I've mentioned above, D2 does require active offense to win. Though I agree that D2 does have both good stamina and defense, I still regard it as "the standard" for burst beys. D2 is a good layer, and there's really nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Instead of banning the usage of a good layer, there should be remolds of previously bad layers in order to make them usable again by giving them better teeth or contact points to balance the meta, not ban something because it's good. I'd rather see a trash bey battle a good bey than watching two pieces of junk clashing into each other and double bursting in the end since neither were burst resistant in the first place.

(Apr. 15, 2017  5:40 PM)Kai-V Wrote: Spriggan does not reliably defeat Dark Deathscyther or Deathscyther at all. It has good chances, but it is not reliable at doing so. 

Moreover, we are way done with waiting for TAKARA-TOMY to do remolds, as you are suggesting, so when we cannot rely on the official creator to make any adjustments and that they themselves only see a solution in banning a part, then why the hell would you not do it as well? Your ideal world will not happen, so meanwhile the metagame and fans are suffering...

(Apr. 15, 2017  5:57 PM)Bastillon Wrote: I do have to admit Spriggan isn't reliable at winning, but this is also true for any KO combos in the burst series. Unless TT figures out a way to revive KO, no amount of combo building effort would be useful.
Ever watched the "Dual layer, dual fun" tournament video? Now, how many dual layers do you spot in said video? I got tired of hitting the replay button since I don't see any of them, so I'll just go out on a limb here and say absolutely none. Yeah, the situation is this bad. Without D2, how many dual layers would be in use? L2, the occasional K2, V2, Z2, X2, B2, the very occasional A2, O2... That makes what, eight? But let's be real here, you'd most likely only use two of the above. Without D2, it's pretty much a single layer meta again. Seeing how TT's not producing them anymore, I seriously doubt how newbie-friendly this community really is. Are we seriously going to deny the very last of viable choices available? Or is it just okay for them to wait for new releases while everyone hates waiting for new molds? Is that fair in any way possible?

(Apr. 15, 2017  5:57 PM)Bastillon Wrote: I do have to admit Spriggan isn't reliable at winning, but this is also true for any KO combos in the burst series. Unless TT figures out a way to revive KO, no amount of combo building effort would be useful.
Ever watched the "Dual layer, dual fun" tournament video? Now, how many dual layers do you spot in said video? I got tired of hitting the replay button since I don't see any of them, so I'll just go out on a limb here and say absolutely none. Yeah, the situation is this bad. Without D2, how many dual layers would be in use? L2, the occasional K2, V2, Z2, X2, B2, the very occasional A2, O2... That makes what, eight? But let's be real here, you'd most likely only use two of the above. Without D2, it's pretty much a single layer meta again. Seeing how TT's not producing them anymore, I seriously doubt how newbie-friendly this community really is. Are we seriously going to deny the very last of viable choices available? Or is it just okay for them to wait for new releases while everyone hates waiting for new molds? Is that fair in any way possible?

(Apr. 15, 2017  8:13 PM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote: There are Odin, Deathscyther, Xcaliber and plentry of single layer too which aren;t that hard to get (mainly focusing international/non-Japanese buyers) + there is hasbro parts too (which I know some asian may not have access to but if they released in india or somewhere it will be still possible to get them for low cost)

(Apr. 15, 2017  10:15 PM)Cake Wrote: D2's existence is more hostile to new players than its removal would be. D2's primary counters are also Single Layers, and its presence may be stifling the use of other potentially competitive Dual Layers. Removing D2 means that new players lose one option that's more easily accessible, but it also makes repeated purchases of Deathscyther less necessary (or completely unnecessary if it's also banned). Wyvern and Odin do not suffer much from any wearing issues, so there's no need to buy many duplicates, unlike Deathscyther which does wear out rapidly. Furthermore, without D2 or Deathscyther in play, I expect we would see more attempts to use Xtreme or Variable-based attack, especially those using V2 or Valtryek V2, since D2 is no longer a concern and stationary Attack is no longer necessary to fight mint Deathscyther. Removing D2 and possibly Deathscyther opens up the game for more Dual Layers and Hasbro parts to see use, particularly those that are currently overshadowed by Deathscyther's high Stamina and D2's unique Stamina/Defense mix.

(Apr. 17, 2017  6:14 PM)cadney Wrote: Reading everyone's responses in this thread has been very interesting. I'm beginning to agree that D2 should be banned outright, but only if Deathscyther also is at the same time. Which, honestly, I've welcomed for awhile even though it has some solid counters. I'm always stressed about my Deathscythers wearing out, and it's difficult and expensive to get new blue and teal ones (arguably the best molds all around). Since it's retired into the hall of fame, getting them will only become harder and more expensive, and everyone will feel the need to keep spending because of the layer's continued dominance. I keep saying I'll buy more, then look at my bank account and say "maybe I should prioritize something other than a bajillion secondhand random boosters..."

If both of them are removed from the equation, I think the game will become far more fun, and choosing attack will become a far more viable an option on a regular basis!

Quote:Deathscyther presents an ever-increasing barrier for new players given that it has long since ceased production. Given that it wears relatively quickly (though not as quickly as you suggested, in my opinion), this means that it will become more expensive and hard to find over time as the top players start hoarding them for future use; like I am.

(Apr. 17, 2017  6:36 PM)cadney Wrote: @[Ultra], @[Kei] Has articulated all my sentiments about Deathscyther above in the thread more eloquently than I could? This quote in particular resonates with me very strongly:


(Sorry for the weird, indirect quote here: selecting quotes doesn't seem to be working for me on desktop today.)