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+--- Forum: Beyblade General (https://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-Beyblade-General)
+--- Thread: Where is this game going? (/Thread-Where-is-this-game-going)
RE: Where is this game going? - -Vulcan- - Dec. 22, 2011
I do agree that 4D has caused many wheels to fall in to disuse just because they older wheels fall completely out of 4D's weight class, but hasn't this kind of a thing always been prevalent in MFB?
(Dec. 21, 2011 10:58 PM)Kei Wrote: Just think, before the Maximum Series here is a list of Wheels that were usable (not necessarily the "best", but they could be used):
Attack: Lightning, Storm, Ray, Leone, Gravity, Vulcan, Quetzalcoatl, Pegasis, Rock, Sagittario, L Drago
Stamina: Earth, Flame, Burn, Thermal, Virgo, Libra
Defense: Earth, Libra, Pisces
And as the game stands now:
Attack: VariAres, Blitz, Beat
Stamina: Phantom, Scythe, Duo
Defense: Basalt, Duo, Death
This list could be debated slightly, but I'm sure that either way we would find that our choices have dwindled as the number of releases have increased. TAKARA-TOMY is backing themselves into a corner.
Hmm, this isn't a fair list. For the current wheels you only listed the ones from the competitive MFB combos thread. Wouldn't Beat, Fang, Destroy, Lightining, and Gravity Perseus count as "usuable" attack wheels? While Storm, Sagittario, and L Drago may have been "passable" and "okay" no one ever really used them just because there were many better and more efficient options. Wheels like Ray and Vulcan fell into disuse because of rubber defense bottoms, but no one really complained. Remember when C145 was eventually dethroned by GB145, and then BD145 overtook that position. Remember "low attackers"? It just seems like the nature of this game forces many parts fall into obscurity leaving a small handful at the top. Your current list for top tier wheels has 3 wheels for each category, but I remember that even before 4D the list only had 2-4 wheels per category.
RE: Where is this game going? - PattyCakeChamp! - Dec. 22, 2011
I agree with everything in the OP but if they hadn't been making "better and over powered parts" How would they make money ? Think about it why buy something when you already have something that beats it? If they released Basalt and continued to release lighter beys who would want the lighter beys? it causes Takara to push themselves into a corner when they don't know what else to make that is better causing them to end beyblade...
RE: Where is this game going? - Yamislayer - Dec. 22, 2011
Sure, after releasing basalt they can't do only light metal wheels.
In this case the mistake is BASALT ITSELF.
Let me ask you this: with pre pegasis around, would you buy a vulcan?
Yes, cause vulcan is better.
BUT With vulcan around, would your pegasis be useless? Not at all.
and look how much time passed between pre hws pegasis and vulcan.
NOW,
with vulcan around, would you buy a vari?
yes, cause vari DESTROYS vulcan with ease.
with vari around, you won't be playing vulcan.
better parts released ---> not a problem
the problem comes when each release is over powered even compared with the immediately previous one.
RE: Where is this game going? - Shabalabadoo - Dec. 22, 2011
That's exactly how I feel Yamislayer. I think you nailed what my opinion is perfectly
RE: Where is this game going? - Raigeko13 - Dec. 22, 2011
Basalt is definite. They HAVE to release things that can beat it, because it beat everything else. And by doing so, they destroy other parts. The metagame has changed with the Maximum Series/4D, they're two completely separate metagames entirely now.
And what SSJ said.
RE: Where is this game going? - PattyCakeChamp! - Dec. 22, 2011
Exactly what I am saying would you buy pegasis if you had vulcan ? They are pretty equal so it would result in less purchases but Now Would you buy a Pegasis or VariAres? VariAres hands down everyone needs it/ wants it so that equals a higher sell rate
RE: Where is this game going? - Fury - Dec. 22, 2011
I feel there are still many counters to everything with the release of 4d and sure combos Dom image but that's part of the game. There is no ultimate combo and bd145 s just that good of a track. There's currently a lot of variation (not like before maximum series) and sure it because they are good. All the combos you talk about are like oh earth this and that. Do you really want Takara to release weaker beys? Everyone wants a strong bey but gets upset that it's too strong. Too strong is just strong Due to all the counters. I think this is a bit over exaggerated as again there are viable counters to everything. And theres becoming more variation. Before 4d it was only basalt. I think that the meta game is building itself up again.
RE: Where is this game going? - Raigeko13 - Dec. 22, 2011
Here's the problem though - with counters, they usually only counter ONE specific combo. At a tournament, not knowing what others are going to use, you can't just have a bunch of counters that win against one thing, you need something that dominates all.
Which is what the MS/4D Metagame is essentially..
RE: Where is this game going? - AeroRespawn - Dec. 22, 2011
The metagame has gone all screwy with these overpowered releases. Look at Diablo. 62 grams? That's not heavy at all. Throw BD145 on a recent release and bam, good combo. BD145 is a staple part.
It's hard to keep up with these new releases. The furthest purchase I made was VariAres.
RE: Where is this game going? - Arupaeo - Dec. 22, 2011
(Dec. 22, 2011 5:13 AM)Raigeko13 Wrote: Here's the problem though - with counters, they usually only counter ONE specific combo. At a tournament, not knowing what others are going to use, you can't just have a bunch of counters that win against one thing, you need something that dominates all.
Which is what the MS/4D Metagame is essentially..
Come on Rai-Frodo, you know that the "one bey to rule them all" has already met its end in the fiery heart of Mt Doom.
At its core, the game is still all it ever was: Attack beats Stamina, Stamina beats Defense, Defense beats Attack. The lines are a little blurry in some ways, but you can't just walk into a tournament with 1 "Super Bey" and walk away with the Gold - at least not in my metagame.
Moreover, there is a lot of talk about how Basalt was unbeatable - and that just isn't true. Even before the release of Phantom, Blitz and VariAres, there were plenty of ways to take down the various Basalt combos. It was easy to use Basalt and win, and that's why so many bladers (including me) used it so frequently, but it was far from unbeatable.
The exact same thing can be said of BD145. Do we see it a lot in tournaments? Yes we do, again because it's easy to use it and get good results. But BD145 combos aren't invulnerable either. They suffer from the same weaknesses they always have in tip selection, it is not the best track for stamina by far, and some strategic match-ups are pretty bad for BD145 no matter what wheel it has on top.
These new beys will be no different. None of them will be unbeatable, they will all have weaknesses - and it is up to us to find them, explore them and then exploit them!
It takes more than the best parts and a great beyheart to reach the upper levels of this game. Aside from a lucky break where your early shipment and a tournament date happen to meld into a happy coincidence, you aren't going to be the only one at the tourney with a new part either. It will always take strategy, skill, knowledge and parts to claim a place Face. You can overcome a parts gap with knowledge gained from testing and experimentation, or exceptional skill. Both take hard work and effort, but I am confident that many of us are up to the task!
And yes, it is getting rather expensive to keep up with the new releases as fast as they are coming. I don't like this very much at all because 1) it does create a barrier to those of us without the resources to buy a new imported bey (or two!) every month, and 2) it makes it very hard to keep current with testing. I wish they would slow it down a bit, and maybe they will after February.
But again, you can't benefit at all from continuing to look backwards and weeping about the unfairness of your Vulcan being nothing better than a paperweight - let alone the beys that you bought more than a year ago. Those beys are dead, and that game is gone. Today's game is here, now, today.
Let's play!
RE: Where is this game going? - Raigeko13 - Dec. 22, 2011
Best post evar^ Lol.
You make a very valid point. Don't really know what to say now..
RE: Where is this game going? - th!nk - Dec. 22, 2011
I would like to point out something here: Right Spin Attack died LONG before BD145, 230, Basalt were released. RS/RSF ended it there and then. RDF has the same effect and seems to still manage quite well against left spin. Sure, BD145 basically made CS the god-king of defense, but outside of that, rubber tip defense was what killed attack, reducing it to Gravity and Lightning.
If you think removing BD145 will bring back Leone, Sagitarrio, even Vulcan, I suggest you try them against Basalt, Duo or Death on RDF. Removing BD145 would give attack a huge advantage, and whilst we have always maintained that that is still "healthy", I've never been completely comfortable with a metagame where nothing can stand up to top-tier attack used by anyone with a good sliding shot.
At the very least, if we are to consider banning BD145, I would expect us to wait (weight? No, that's terrible I am terrible) until Diablo is released.
All this said I've always been very, very wary about banning parts, but I think sometimes this is necessary...
Also, as for my huge speculative post a few pages back that I think gave Kai-V the wrong idea, the main point of that was to demonstrate how TT are basically releasing (or trying to release) whole new metagames every few months.
As for Duo, I've already made my argument for it not being overpowered, any BD145 combo is pretty easily OS'd by most TH170CS combo's, even if it is BD145EDS (MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170CS is still cool guys k). TH170CS is pretty easy to KO, TH170RDF is probably the most intimidating combo, but can be OS'd quite easily.
RE: Where is this game going? - Justaway - Dec. 22, 2011
Thats what we end up doing everytime.
We wait. I remember during the time Basalt was ruling the metagame, we had a similar discussion(for banning Basalt though) and at that time as well the most common opinion was to wait till Variares is released. This will continue after every few months it seems. We will have a metagame dominated by certain things and we will have hopes that some future release will end this problem and then the release actually does end our problems and the metagame becomes smooth again.
RE: Where is this game going? - th!nk - Dec. 22, 2011
Well, lately it's been the future release that we were waiting for becoming the new thing we're waiting for a part to defeat, but yeah.
Also, here's a little something more: Okay, we remove BD145. So, we'll look down the list at "okay" attack wheels. LDrago Destroy maybe? How does that do against MF-H Basalt Aquario GB145CS? 25%
Yes, Blitz and Variares laugh at it, but they're already strong.
Anyway, I don't think banning BD145 is the point of this thread, I just wanted to head it off properly because I don't think it would be healthy for the metagame.
RE: Where is this game going? - Yamislayer - Dec. 22, 2011
(Dec. 22, 2011 4:58 AM)PattyCakeChamp! Wrote: Exactly what I am saying would you buy pegasis if you had vulcan ? They are pretty equal so it would result in less purchases but Now Would you buy a Pegasis or VariAres? VariAres hands down everyone needs it/ wants it so that equals a higher sell rate
there's something wrong with this.
cause to the question "would you buy pegasis if you had vulcan?" The answer is "Maybe"
now answer, would you buy a vulcan if you had vari?
also, better sell rate =/= better game.
What you risk there is getting players quit your game.
Even if that doesn't happen, the main problem i'm discussing is the game itself, not "Takara Tomy's money making"
RE: Where is this game going? - Janstarblast - Dec. 22, 2011
(Dec. 22, 2011 8:43 AM)th!nk Wrote: Well, lately it's been the future release that we were waiting for becoming the new thing we're waiting for a part to defeat, but yeah.
Also, here's a little something more: Okay, we remove BD145. So, we'll look down the list at "okay" attack wheels. LDrago Destroy maybe? How does that do against MF-H Basalt Aquario GB145CS? 25%
Yes, Blitz and Variares laugh at it, but they're already strong.
Anyway, I don't think banning BD145 is the point of this thread, I just wanted to head it off properly because I don't think it would be healthy for the metagame.
Even I do not think removing BD145 would be safe...
I know this ain't the point of this thread, but the point of getting over with BD145 would never put the previous parts to an advantage whatsoever. Think of LLD... Its NOTHING without BD145.
As for the very first sentence of your post, that is probably why our meta-game is still what it is. Otherwise, it would have been devastated.
Concentrating on new releases is extremely healthy for our meta-game.
When Basalt was around, we eyed for a new release which would suppress it.
This was an unhealthy environment. We depended on indefinite things; i.e. we expected better releases.
Now, we make use of existing parts to counter the newer ones, which is completely opposite to the previous case.
The mentality of people following the meta-game has been extremely advantageous in a sense, and that's kept the meta-game intact.
The newer ones bring in an extremely huge threat. We are like people in a ship stuck in a storm. An incessant series of waves are thrown at us, and we try our best to handle it.
IMO, the newer releases are offerning what "we asked for" back when Basalt was predominant. We wanted something to beat Basalt. But, TT has taken our wish to be definite/ever-lasting one, and are hence releasing things which beat the previous thing with ease.
IMO, this increases Competitiveness in the meta-game, which is by far the most fun thing in beyblade. We did not want a blockade like Basalt in the meta-game, and we wished for newer releases to be able to clear it. We were extremely happy with VariAres and Scythe Kronos. We then wished for something to beat VariAres, and Duo has done extremely well for that matter, as I observed in initial tests. We want newer releases to 'KILL' existing ones. The problem is the creation of a chain. Example-
Stamina-
Earth
Basalt > Earth
Scythe > Basalt > Earth
Phantom > Scythe > Basalt > Earth
Duo > Phantom > Scythe > Basalt > Earth
This list is an example, and I may be wrong with the placement of the parts.
Just look how FAR behind has Earth been pushed. Not to mention that the chain grows longer if we place in the Defense and Attack parts too.
The main problem HAS to be the cost, and the lack of worldwide distribution of TT products, and also this chain formation.
RE: Where is this game going? - Dan - Dec. 22, 2011
.. Who said we wanted something to 'kill' VariAres?
I don't think Duo does a magnificent job of it, either.
RE: Where is this game going? - CosmicDestroyer - Dec. 22, 2011
Is anyone else wondering what will be after Diablo, Kreis, Fusion and later, Flash?
RE: Where is this game going? - th!nk - Dec. 22, 2011
Dan: Unless you're up against one of the 5 or so people with a godly launch, and they are able to do that consistently at a tournament, the right Duo combo will handle variares excellently, albeit not 100%. I might not be able to use variares well, but you don't have duo, it's quite impressive in what it can do. BD145RDF may open you up to being reasonably easy to OS, but it's even harder to KO than CS. And whilst left spin means it does slightly worse, you can blame yourself for introducing weak launch (which seems to work nicely with RDF).
Not that that's a bad thing, defence beating attack unless the attack user has exceptional skill is about right, we're just not used to it, I guess.
RE: Where is this game going? - PattyCakeChamp! - Dec. 22, 2011
(Dec. 22, 2011 10:09 AM)Yamislayer Wrote:(Dec. 22, 2011 4:58 AM)PattyCakeChamp! Wrote: Exactly what I am saying would you buy pegasis if you had vulcan ? They are pretty equal so it would result in less purchases but Now Would you buy a Pegasis or VariAres? VariAres hands down everyone needs it/ wants it so that equals a higher sell rate
there's something wrong with this.
cause to the question "would you buy pegasis if you had vulcan?" The answer is "Maybe"
now answer, would you buy a vulcan if you had vari?
also, better sell rate =/= better game.
What you risk there is getting players quit your game.
Even if that doesn't happen, the main problem i'm discussing is the game itself, not "Takara Tomy's money making"
If you are talking about the game it is based off of takara-tomy's products right? So If you buy pegasis or vulcan ? it is a MAYBE but Vulcan or Vari? DEFINATELY. That is all I am saying. The "game" is moving forward would you rather have it every single part be the same or "equal" or different parts with different customisations ?
RE: Where is this game going? - Janstarblast - Dec. 22, 2011
Dan- What th!nk said. Still, I do agree that Duo might not handle VariAres exceptionally well, as tests by H8R in the thread did show a low win rate. If there was a reason for that low win rate, may you(th!nk) please tell me about it?
Considering the fact that not many people own it, we may not really know Duo's true potential unless extensive tests are conducted. As of now, whoever owns it, have not been unsatisfied.
Well, VariAres was just an example tbh. Considering its an attacker which is quite tough to control, we might as well beat it.
On the other hand, we may still say that in the right hands, VariAres is a nuclear weapon in use. I am certain that it would be next to impossible to beat a person who can tame VariAres.
It was just a reference to the fact that we have wished for parts which outrank the existing ones.
You'd certainly agree to this, that we wanted new beys to beat Basalt effectively.
Yes, the LLD and MLD combos created by Bluezee(?) and you, were quite effective too, but we all spotted their weaknesses soon after.
We wished for better beys, if not to beat Basalt, then at least to keep it in the meta-game.
In the controversial Ban Basalt thread, there were various members who stated that the new releases will get done with Basalt. This showed our dependence on new releases. I am not saying that some TT official checked out this Forum and fulfilled our wish, and is still repeating the same procedure of releasing parts to outclass the existing ones like a broken tape recorder.
This is what I think. TT gave us an overdose of the medicine we wished to have to cure the meta-game.
You all may feel free to correct me, as you all are a part of this ever-changing meta. I already mentioned that I have followed the meta-game quite well, but never been a part of it. Hence, all of you are more experienced than me, and certainly know how well a part does against the other. My knowledge is based on whatever you all say. Hence-
After what you said, I am confused with Duo's performance, as I do not know whom to believe.
RE: Where is this game going? - lord Wolfblade - Dec. 22, 2011
to many big comments to read through, so i am just going to do this
i agree with Yamislayer.
all of this year, the metagame has been "buy the new beys or you wont get as far" (you can still win with older parts, but the chance of that are small), and i really do not like it
i myself do not have allot of money (still need to get a job), and i do not really want to spend every penny i have to import the newest beyblades, and when they finally show up, find out that it is not as good as the newest beyblade out ect. ect
and the best hasbro beys (lightning, basalt, ect...) can not cut it that well, they are just outclassed.
really, all i can say is again this: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Do-we-need-a-second-format
i know, i know "it is to hard to put in" (or something like that), but it will shorten gap between people with limited resources and/or not allowed to import, to the ones with and/or can.
(Dec. 21, 2011 7:17 AM)Hazel Wrote: I still long for the days of Earth being a viable choice.
i agree with this so much
RE: Where is this game going? - Yamislayer - Dec. 22, 2011
(Dec. 22, 2011 3:25 PM)PattyCakeChamp! Wrote:(Dec. 22, 2011 10:09 AM)Yamislayer Wrote:(Dec. 22, 2011 4:58 AM)PattyCakeChamp! Wrote: Exactly what I am saying would you buy pegasis if you had vulcan ? They are pretty equal so it would result in less purchases but Now Would you buy a Pegasis or VariAres? VariAres hands down everyone needs it/ wants it so that equals a higher sell rate
there's something wrong with this.
cause to the question "would you buy pegasis if you had vulcan?" The answer is "Maybe"
now answer, would you buy a vulcan if you had vari?
also, better sell rate =/= better game.
What you risk there is getting players quit your game.
Even if that doesn't happen, the main problem i'm discussing is the game itself, not "Takara Tomy's money making"
If you are talking about the game it is based off of takara-tomy's products right? So If you buy pegasis or vulcan ? it is a MAYBE but Vulcan or Vari? DEFINATELY. That is all I am saying. The "game" is moving forward would you rather have it every single part be the same or "equal" or different parts with different customisations ?
pegasis or vulcan? maybe both, at least one.
vulcan or vari? Only vari
As I already stated, i don't want parts to be the same. it is fine to have a stronger part, AS LONG AS the other part is at least "usable
Anyway i dont get why people like lordwolfbeyblade say "you can still win using old parts"
In my opinion, assuming you're going to face at least DECENT competitive players, and you don't know what they will be playing, you CAN'T win with old parts,
is that just me or i'll get my ray kicked out by its vari, my libra destroyed by their duo, and my virgo being a victim of racist jokes by phantom? (oh a pre hws! how ya doin' little relic? Ok this was terrible hahah)
RE: Where is this game going? - lord Wolfblade - Dec. 22, 2011
(Dec. 22, 2011 6:39 PM)Yamislayer Wrote: Anyway i dont get why people like lordwolfbeyblade say "you can still win using old parts"
In my opinion, assuming you're going to face at least DECENT competitive players, and you don't know what they will be playing, you CAN'T win with old parts,
is that just me or i'll get my ray kicked out by its vari, my libra destroyed by their duo, and my virgo being a victim of racist jokes by phantom? (oh a pre hws! how ya doin' little relic? Ok this was terrible hahah)
i meant that in rare occasions (like when nile8, won a tournament with an uncustomized gravity perseus) it may happen, but the chance is very, very slim
i do actually believe that if you do not have any maximum and beyond beys, you will lose all of the pre-maximum series do not have enough stamina, defence, or smash power to succeed at all in this metagame (unless the opponent self KOs or something... or if you are nile8).
sorry for not clarifying
it isn't impossible, just improbable. just saying
RE: Where is this game going? - Dan - Dec. 22, 2011
I finally have a reason for posting here: Diablo is plain ridiculous.
It may just be me, but TT is forcing that abomination to be good by making it a mammoth weight. The entire thing looks like a jumble of disgusting designs made by 4 year olds each adding on a bit more ridiculous as the sketch goes down the line of TT design team. Comprised of 4 year olds. Scribbling idiocy.
It just can't be right. Totally forced.
TT: What are you doing, bro?