(Jul. 17, 2020  5:04 PM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: Can anybody do Archer Hercules H4 blitz glaive Reboot vs Lord Spriggan 0 wall Bearing (left spin)

(Jul. 17, 2020  5:04 PM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: Can anybody do Archer Hercules H4 blitz glaive Reboot vs Lord Spriggan 0 wall Bearing (left spin)

(Jul. 17, 2020  9:51 PM)Friedpasta Wrote:

(Jul. 17, 2020  5:04 PM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: Can anybody do Archer Hercules H4 blitz glaive Reboot vs Lord Spriggan 0 wall Bearing (left spin)

blitz is banned and isn't frame compatable, and all GT layers are banned in limited

(Jul. 17, 2020  5:04 PM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: Can anybody do Archer Hercules H4 blitz glaive Reboot vs Lord Spriggan 0 wall Bearing (left spin)

(Jul. 17, 2020  4:52 PM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: Hercules H4 00c atomic vs Meteo L-drago F : S
Hercules 40%
Meteo 60%
(I did do this in a slingshock stadium since my cousin took my TT stadium before quarantine).

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Hercules H4 0Cross Atomic vs Beat Kukulcan.
Hercules 100%
Beat Kukulcan 0%

(Jul. 17, 2020  5:09 PM)#Fafnir Wrote: Hercules H4 0C Atomic VS Z Achilles 0B Hunter'
Hercules H4: 40% (4 OS)
Z Achilles: 60% (5 KOs, 1 BF)

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Hercules H4 7C Atomic VS Nightmare Longinus Angle Xtreme (Hasbro)
Hercules H4: 20% (2 OS)
Nightmare Longinus: 80% (6 KOs, 2 BF)
I think it's safe to say that while Hercules H4 definitely has a place in the limited meta, it isn't ban worthy.

(Sep. 16, 2020  12:51 AM)bladekid Wrote:

(Jul. 17, 2020  5:09 PM)#Fafnir Wrote: Hercules H4 0C Atomic VS Z Achilles 0B Hunter'
Hercules H4: 40% (4 OS)
Z Achilles: 60% (5 KOs, 1 BF)

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Hercules H4 7C Atomic VS Nightmare Longinus Angle Xtreme (Hasbro)
Hercules H4: 20% (2 OS)
Nightmare Longinus: 80% (6 KOs, 2 BF)
I think it's safe to say that while Hercules H4 definitely has a place in the limited meta, it isn't ban worthy.

Do you have At-S?

(Sep. 16, 2020  1:12 AM)#Fafnir Wrote:

(Sep. 16, 2020  12:51 AM)bladekid Wrote: Do you have At-S?

Yes, but not with me right now. I’ll return from a vacation on Saturday, so I’ll be able to test hasbro combos then.

(Feb. 08, 2021  9:16 PM)Wombat Wrote: Finally did some testing with this thing since I bought the Slingshock Master Kit. With how fragile the little arrow in the head is I don't really want to test it unless its for something that actually counts. Unfortunately, since it's one of the more defensive Layers in the format, it's going to be a benchmark against the best Attackers to see how good it really is.

First, I wanted to see how it stacked up to aZ3 Stamina-wise, since according to Shindog's testing its Stamina is not as great as it was originally made out to be.

Hercules H4 7 Eternal-S vs Asteroid Zeutron Z3 7 Eternal-S
H4.7.Et-S: 12 wins (all OS)
aZ3.7.Et-S: 8 wins (all OS)
H4.7.Et-S win rate: 60%

To be as fair as possible for this one, I alternated launches and swapped either the Disks or the Drivers every 5 rounds. Overall, it seemed to be a pretty even split, so I couldn't say for sure which was definitively better... if anything, the part that tended to win more often than not was my yellow Et-S (as opposed to the gold one from the Master Kit). I changed the Driver to Yard-S, which isn't so viable in Limited, but is the only other competitive Hasbro Stamina Driver I actually own 2 of, and did a few more rounds, swapping one of the parts every 2 rounds instead. H4 won 5-3 (all OS), so at least for the parts and combos I have, it seems that H4 has a slight edge over aZ3 Stamina wise, but I don't think aZ3 is disadvantaged to the point that couldn't overcome H4 with a better balanced combo, good Driver matchup, or a stronger launch.

Hercules H4 10Expand Atomic-S vs Nightmare Longinus Turn Xtreme'
H4.10E.At-S: 15 wins  (all OS)
nL.T.X': 5 wins (all KO)
H4.10E.At-S win rate: 75%

This was a lot closer than the numbers make it look. nL is plenty capable of hitting H4 hard enough to KO it, even consistently and mid-game, it's just that in this particular series of tests H4 got an obscene amount of lucky wall saves. I think I counted 4 in one round, and if I had to guess H4 probably averaged over 1 wall save per round. Shindog's [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyGVko_9rJE]video[/b] of L3.T.X getting a 60% winrate against Monster, which is supposedly a better Defense type than H4, is probably a better indication of what this matchup could look like (though for me most of it looked like the 9th round in his video).

Finally, I did the most interesting part IMO, seeing how it compared to what I think is the best overall right spin defense combo for TT in Limited: mG.00.Kp'.

Hercules H4 10Expand Atomic-S vs. Maximum Garuda 00 Keep'
H4.10E.At-S: 1 win (OS)
mG.00.Kp': 9 wins (all OS)
1 tie redone
H4.10E.At-S win rate: 10%

I alternated launches for this one too, and even when launched first, mG could usually pull off the win by a decent margin. Atomic-S's same spin Stamina continues to disappoint me slightly. I wonder if using a different Frame could change this, Expand has a chance to scrape early if knocked off balance, and IIRC At and At-S only need Proof-level LAD to consistently beat Gn in opposite spin.

(Feb. 09, 2021  12:34 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote: Interesting results, this makes me rather disappointed since I was told HE is one of the best.
Can I request...
Hercules H4 00Cross/Star Atomic-S VS Nightmare Longinus Turn Hunter'.

(Feb. 09, 2021  5:09 AM)Wombat Wrote:

(Feb. 09, 2021  12:34 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote: Interesting results, this makes me rather disappointed since I was told HE is one of the best.
Can I request...
Hercules H4 00Cross/Star Atomic-S VS Nightmare Longinus Turn Hunter'.

I'm going to have to politely decline that request, just because it isn't different enough from the one I just did to be worth doing. Changing nL's Driver to one that would make it perform worse against opposite spin opponents and changing H4's Frame to one that wouldn't affect which combo wins by OS wouldn't give me any new useful information or further "test" the abilities of H4.

With that being said, if someone wants to take a crack at it with something like LC hK.00D.X'/Ev', or your combo of choice for bX/either of the Unions, that would be great. If its stamina is not so good, and the best same spin attackers can win it consistently, then it probably can be taken off the watchlist.

(Feb. 09, 2021  8:20 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote: Alright I understand.


aH4.00P.At-S VS dC.00.Kp'
I'd like to do this to test the same spin Stamina Capabilities of H4 against one of the top layers for Limited. 
If H4 Loses it's okay, but if it wins you might want to consider leaving it on the Watchlist. Also do fit a MGC on dC, I so happen to have a MGC + MAC so if anyone has that and can do this test it will be much appreciated.
dC has powerful abilities In same spin as long as it doesn't burst due to Its gimmick, so I think this test is worth looking at.

(Feb. 09, 2021  7:12 PM)tubitr Wrote:

(Feb. 09, 2021  8:20 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote: Alright I understand.


aH4.00P.At-S VS dC.00.Kp'
I'd like to do this to test the same spin Stamina Capabilities of H4 against one of the top layers for Limited. 
If H4 Loses it's okay, but if it wins you might want to consider leaving it on the Watchlist. Also do fit a MGC on dC, I so happen to have a MGC + MAC so if anyone has that and can do this test it will be much appreciated.
dC has powerful abilities In same spin as long as it doesn't burst due to Its gimmick, so I think this test is worth looking at.

I don't think you should expect a keep' combo to outspin an atomic combo in same spin

(Feb. 10, 2021  12:25 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote:

(Feb. 09, 2021  7:12 PM)tubitr Wrote: I don't think you should expect a keep' combo to outspin an atomic combo in same spin

Sorry, not to look down on you, but do you even HAVE Deep Chaos?
Because if you do, you'd find it can outspin even Bearing in Same Spin, so I'd like to find out if H4 is able to win by sheer stamina where Beys like Shining Amaterios 0Lift Bearing have lost. 
Plus This has Happened to only TT Beys cos where I live no Hasbros, so I would like someone to help me test.

(Feb. 10, 2021  12:28 AM)CheetoBlader Wrote:

(Feb. 10, 2021  12:25 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote: Sorry, not to look down on you, but do you even HAVE Deep Chaos?
Because if you do, you'd find it can outspin even Bearing in Same Spin, so I'd like to find out if H4 is able to win by sheer stamina where Beys like Shining Amaterios 0Lift Bearing have lost. 
Plus This has Happened to only TT Beys cos where I live no Hasbros, so I would like someone to help me test.

Well uh, hate to break it to you, but Bearing isn’t very good in same spin.

(Feb. 10, 2021  12:25 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote:

(Feb. 09, 2021  7:12 PM)tubitr Wrote: I don't think you should expect a keep' combo to outspin an atomic combo in same spin

Sorry, not to look down on you, but do you even HAVE Deep Chaos?
Because if you do, you'd find it can outspin even Bearing in Same Spin, so I'd like to find out if H4 is able to win by sheer stamina where Beys like Shining Amaterios 0Lift Bearing have lost. 

(Feb. 10, 2021  7:45 AM)tubitr Wrote:

(Feb. 10, 2021  12:25 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote: Sorry, not to look down on you, but do you even HAVE Deep Chaos?
Because if you do, you'd find it can outspin even Bearing in Same Spin, so I'd like to find out if H4 is able to win by sheer stamina where Beys like Shining Amaterios 0Lift Bearing have lost. 

Deep chaos has great stamina but atomic is the king of same spin stamina afaik. Its not odd for a defense/stamina hybrid like H4 on the best same spin tip there is to beat a top tier stamina layer on a more defensive oriented tip. (tbh H4 did lose to Garuda on Keep' so it might lose to dC as well but that'd be more because of the tip than the layer). I just think H4 shouldn't be considered watch list material from a test that gives its opponent a worse stamina tip. 


Also in my experience sA sometimes struggles vs things that can destabilise, like  Myth on a rubber attack tip sometimes outspins sA on atomic/orbit while H4 is much safer vs Myth.

(Feb. 08, 2021  9:16 PM)Wombat Wrote: Finally, I did the most interesting part IMO, seeing how it compared to what I think is the best overall right spin defense combo for TT in Limited: mG.00.Kp'.

Hercules H4 10Expand Atomic-S vs. Maximum Garuda 00 Keep'
H4.10E.At-S: 1 win (OS)
mG.00.Kp': 9 wins (all OS)
1 tie redone
H4.10E.At-S win rate: 10%

I alternated launches for this one too, and even when launched first, mG could usually pull off the win by a decent margin. Atomic-S's same spin Stamina continues to disappoint me slightly. I wonder if using a different Frame could change this(...)

(Feb. 10, 2021  12:25 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote: (...) you'd find it can outspin even Bearing in Same Spin, so I'd like to find out if H4 is able to win by sheer stamina where Beys like Shining Amaterios 0Lift Bearing have lost. 

(Feb. 10, 2021  7:45 AM)tubitr Wrote: (...)
(tbh H4 did lose to Garuda on Keep' so it might lose to dC as well but that'd be more because of the tip than the layer -edit: notived a typo here my b, i meant H4 winning would be because of the tip-). I just think H4 shouldn't be considered watch list material from a test that gives its opponent a worse stamina tip. 

Also in my experience sA sometimes struggles vs things that can destabilise, like  Myth on a rubber attack tip sometimes outspins sA on atomic/orbit while H4 is much safer vs Myth.

(Feb. 10, 2021  8:06 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote: Your not getting my point. Because of deep Chaos gimmick it Destabilizers the opponent.

(Feb. 09, 2021  8:20 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote: If H4 Loses it's okay, but if it wins you might want to consider leaving it on the Watchlist.

(Feb. 09, 2021  7:12 PM)tubitr Wrote: I don't think you should expect a keep' combo to outspin an atomic combo in same spin

(Feb. 10, 2021  9:27 AM)tubitr Wrote:

(Feb. 08, 2021  9:16 PM)Wombat Wrote: Finally, I did the most interesting part IMO, seeing how it compared to what I think is the best overall right spin defense combo for TT in Limited: mG.00.Kp'.

Hercules H4 10Expand Atomic-S vs. Maximum Garuda 00 Keep'
H4.10E.At-S: 1 win (OS)
mG.00.Kp': 9 wins (all OS)
1 tie redone
H4.10E.At-S win rate: 10%

I alternated launches for this one too, and even when launched first, mG could usually pull off the win by a decent margin. Atomic-S's same spin Stamina continues to disappoint me slightly. I wonder if using a different Frame could change this(...)

(Feb. 10, 2021  12:25 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote: (...) you'd find it can outspin even Bearing in Same Spin, so I'd like to find out if H4 is able to win by sheer stamina where Beys like Shining Amaterios 0Lift Bearing have lost. 

(Feb. 10, 2021  7:45 AM)tubitr Wrote: (...)
(tbh H4 did lose to Garuda on Keep' so it might lose to dC as well but that'd be more because of the tip than the layer -edit: notived a typo here my b, i meant H4 winning would be because of the tip-). I just think H4 shouldn't be considered watch list material from a test that gives its opponent a worse stamina tip. 

Also in my experience sA sometimes struggles vs things that can destabilise, like  Myth on a rubber attack tip sometimes outspins sA on atomic/orbit while H4 is much safer vs Myth.

(Feb. 10, 2021  8:06 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote: Your not getting my point. Because of deep Chaos gimmick it Destabilizers the opponent.

You're not getting my point lol; dC is a good destaber yes, thats why it beats sA on Bearing (tip and layer prone to being detabed) while being not as effective vs Atomic, a tip thats resilent to being destabed.

Also H4 At-S vs mG Keep' was already tested so we know that H4, suprisingly, can be outspun by Keep'+layer that can destab well.

(Feb. 09, 2021  8:20 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote: If H4 Loses it's okay, but if it wins you might want to consider leaving it on the Watchlist.

(Feb. 09, 2021  7:12 PM)tubitr Wrote: I don't think you should expect a keep' combo to outspin an atomic combo in same spin

Defensive stamina hybrids on At/At-S would be expected to OS Keep' combos, H4 doing it shouldn't be an argument to put/keep it on a watchlist. (and from a similiar test already done, it probably won't os dC on Keep' despite At)

(Feb. 10, 2021  11:55 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote: You know what, your focusing too much on Keep'.
The thing is,
Don't you know Chaos has a Spring gimmick on the white part of Chaos, that allowed it to go down.
This causes it to destabilize opponents in same spin. 
Helping it win.
Chaos is different from mG in the fact that it has anti-same spin stamina performance. (Except maybe mG.)

From what you have said, you likely don't have Chaos...
I also think mG is of a high standard

(Feb. 10, 2021  11:55 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote: I'm not talking about Raw Stamina here, I'm trying to investigate H4's anti-destabilizing potential.
As Storm Pegasis is banned, after some testing, I realised it had too much raw stamina, and was resistant to Destabilization.
If H4 is too, then it should stay on the Watchlist.

(Feb. 10, 2021  11:55 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote: You know what, your focusing too much on Keep'.
Also I don't have At-S, so I want to know how it'll do. Against dC compared to drivers like Om, At, O, Et, R, etc.

(Feb. 10, 2021  1:04 PM)tubitr Wrote:

(Feb. 10, 2021  11:55 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote:

Spoiler (Click to View)

You know what, your focusing too much on Keep'.
The thing is,
Don't you know Chaos has a Spring gimmick on the white part of Chaos, that allowed it to go down.
This causes it to destabilize opponents in same spin. 
Helping it win.
Chaos is different from mG in the fact that it has anti-same spin stamina performance. (Except maybe mG.)
From what you have said, you likely don't have Chaos...
I also think mG is of a high standard

Spoiler (Click to View)

mG is really good at destabing too tho, doesnt have the spring gimmick but its low shape helps it (also probably why dC's "anti same spin gimmick" isn't to effective against it ).
Bruh I've got both dC and Caynox C3, I think you're overestimating how useful the spring gimmick is and underestimating how useful the slopes of dC are. (havent messed around with dC as much but my C3 was more or less tying with N3, another layer thats good at destabing thanks to its shape/slopes, when on the same disc+driver)  

(Feb. 10, 2021  11:55 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote:

Spoiler (Click to View)

I'm not talking about Raw Stamina here, I'm trying to investigate H4's anti-destabilizing potential.
As Storm Pegasis is banned, after some testing, I realised it had too much raw stamina, and was resistant to Destabilization.
If H4 is too, then it should stay on the Watchlist.

If it had too much raw stamina and/or resisted getting destabed it wouldn't lose to mG Keep' (probably)

(Feb. 10, 2021  11:55 AM)[[ NØBØDY ]] Wrote:

Spoiler (Click to View)

You know what, your focusing too much on Keep'.
Also I don't have At-S, so I want to know how it'll do. Against dC compared to drivers like Om, At, O, Et, R, etc.

Spoiler (Click to View)

YES! I'm arguing against using dC on  Keep' since you'd expect a layer with decent stamina to do well on Atomic vs it. If H4 on At-S beats dC on stuff like Om/O/R/Et, then there's a case for it to be watchlisted , better candidates for H4 to be tested against imo.  But from the  mG test h4 winning vs these seem unlikely