(Jul. 14, 2017  5:46 AM)Rebel Blader Wrote:

(Jul. 14, 2017  12:42 AM)lovesick Wrote: I guess that works, as long as it doesn't burst too much.

forget about D i think K and K2 would be better since they dont have teeth wear issue  and arent that easy to burst.how about K/K2 A/D/S S aginst our stamina layers on a G/S revolve setup.

also i wanted to share my opinion on types of stamina types so thers less confusion 

Conventional Stamina: the goal of these beyblades is to outspin other beyblade they are the standard stamina types.they use disks with OWD and tips which have low friction.
few setups of conventional stamina are : S/K/G 8/8G(i am doubtful about 8 and 8 G but it looks like they will be good for stamina since they are also placed in winning combinations) Revolve/Yeilding/Gyro.

Destabilizers: these are special defense stamina hybrids whose main goal is to destabilize the opponent to outspin it.Some destabilizer setups are: Heavy/gravity/2/4/6/8 G( i am a little doubtful about the god layer system disk but tthey are heavy and compact so i think they can provide destabilizers the rpm they need to destabilize the opponent so i mentioned them but testing is always welcome) D/O/At.

Defense/Stamina hybrids: these beyblades are balance types.they possess qualites of a defense type and a stamina type.these are mostly a stamina oriented layer paired with a defense oriented  (in other word a disk which is more suited to defense) with a stamina driver or a defensive driver like N/W H R/O or a stamina oriented layer with a stamina oriented disk with a defensive driver like N/W S O or a defensive layer paired with either a defense oriented disk or stamina oriented disk paired with a stamina oriented driver like K2 heavy/spread revolve. common setup for these are: G/H/A/D/Y( i am not mentioning god system disks here since they need testing) revolve /defense/orbit/yeilding.
Note: alot of parts in burst are good for both defense and stamina such as neptune/wyvern/odin so i am still not sure if something like neptune heavy orbit should be considred a stamina type or a defense/stamina hybrid.


Spin equalizing stamina: these beyblades spin left so they can spin equalize with other stamina types they rely on the precision provided by the driver and LAD provided by the disk and driver.these types of beyblades can only use two layer dF and L2 as they are the only left spining layers in burst.common setups are: Y/P/S 2/4/6/8G At/R/H.

Anti spin stealers:these types of beyblade are made to counter spin equalizing stamina.they either use a smooth stamina layer to outspin spin equalizing stamina  or a aggressive layer in the same spin direction to burst spin equalizing stamina.they usually have equal or more LAD than spin equalizing stamina. common setups are the same as spin equalizing stamina.

Stallers: these beyblades consist of a stamina layer with OWD and good solo spin time, a disk with OWD and an aggressive driver with good stamina such as accel.common setups are S/K/G zephyr/accel/blow(i dunno blow is good anymore i heard it has balance problems.
Note:something like valkyrie/ minoborus heavy/ spread zephyr should not be considered staller beacause stallers only use stamina oriented layer and disks with OWD.V/M H/S Z/A are actually attack stamina hybrids.
hope thisclears up confusion now we need someone to test the layers to know which layers are good for what categories and also to determine which layers are best in  what categories and arrange them according to their potential. i did not mentioned the layers in each category myself because there are many layers which need testing.

(Jul. 14, 2017  3:36 PM)lovesick Wrote:

(Jul. 14, 2017  5:46 AM)Rebel Blader Wrote: forget about D i think K and K2 would be better since they dont have teeth wear issue  and arent that easy to burst.how about K/K2 A/D/S S aginst our stamina layers on a G/S revolve setup.

also i wanted to share my opinion on types of stamina types so thers less confusion 

Conventional Stamina: the goal of these beyblades is to outspin other beyblade they are the standard stamina types.they use disks with OWD and tips which have low friction.
few setups of conventional stamina are : S/K/G 8/8G(i am doubtful about 8 and 8 G but it looks like they will be good for stamina since they are also placed in winning combinations) Revolve/Yeilding/Gyro.

Destabilizers: these are special defense stamina hybrids whose main goal is to destabilize the opponent to outspin it.Some destabilizer setups are: Heavy/gravity/2/4/6/8 G( i am a little doubtful about the god layer system disk but tthey are heavy and compact so i think they can provide destabilizers the rpm they need to destabilize the opponent so i mentioned them but testing is always welcome) D/O/At.

Defense/Stamina hybrids: these beyblades are balance types.they possess qualites of a defense type and a stamina type.these are mostly a stamina oriented layer paired with a defense oriented  (in other word a disk which is more suited to defense) with a stamina driver or a defensive driver like N/W H R/O or a stamina oriented layer with a stamina oriented disk with a defensive driver like N/W S O or a defensive layer paired with either a defense oriented disk or stamina oriented disk paired with a stamina oriented driver like K2 heavy/spread revolve. common setup for these are: G/H/A/D/Y( i am not mentioning god system disks here since they need testing) revolve /defense/orbit/yeilding.
Note: alot of parts in burst are good for both defense and stamina such as neptune/wyvern/odin so i am still not sure if something like neptune heavy orbit should be considred a stamina type or a defense/stamina hybrid.


Spin equalizing stamina: these beyblades spin left so they can spin equalize with other stamina types they rely on the precision provided by the driver and LAD provided by the disk and driver.these types of beyblades can only use two layer dF and L2 as they are the only left spining layers in burst.common setups are: Y/P/S 2/4/6/8G At/R/H.

Anti spin stealers:these types of beyblade are made to counter spin equalizing stamina.they either use a smooth stamina layer to outspin spin equalizing stamina  or a aggressive layer in the same spin direction to burst spin equalizing stamina.they usually have equal or more LAD than spin equalizing stamina. common setups are the same as spin equalizing stamina.

Stallers: these beyblades consist of a stamina layer with OWD and good solo spin time, a disk with OWD and an aggressive driver with good stamina such as accel.common setups are S/K/G zephyr/accel/blow(i dunno blow is good anymore i heard it has balance problems.
Note:something like valkyrie/ minoborus heavy/ spread zephyr should not be considered staller beacause stallers only use stamina oriented layer and disks with OWD.V/M H/S Z/A are actually attack stamina hybrids.
hope thisclears up confusion now we need someone to test the layers to know which layers are good for what categories and also to determine which layers are best in  what categories and arrange them according to their potential. i did not mentioned the layers in each category myself because there are many layers which need testing.

You phrased it better than I did. I'll edit it a bit for accuracy and put it into the OP. Thanks for the contribution!




EDIT: Some testing on destabilizers done. Added to the OP.

Spoiler (Click to View)

Opponent: Odin ( this Odin is not the one I used for my conventional stamina testing) Heavy Revolve
(A staple stamina combo. Odin, through testing in this thread and tournament experience, has high stamina properties. Also, tournament experience has found its burst defense and ko defense properties to be above average. Heavy's weight increases its ko defense. Revolve has high stamina, but does not have good destabilization defense. This allows for good comparison between the stamina layer setups, on the ability to actually outspin the opponent.)

Setup: _____ 4Glaive Atomic
(4Glaive has heavy weight, balanced weight distribution and a low center of gravity, increasing its ko defense and overall balance properties. Atomic as a bottom can resist toppling till the last few rotations, making it a solid choice for beyblades focusing and destabilizing others while not being destabilized themselves. Its aggression helps with knocking the opponent off balance.

Layers tested:
Wyvern, Neptune, Odin (I have two), Acid Anubis, Blaze Ragnaruk, Alter Chronos

Equipment:
B-09 standard attack type stadium
String launcher speed version

Procedure: Beyblades launched first alternatively. Destabilizer banked, Odin regular launched.

Tests: (ascending order of win rate)

Spoiler (Click to View)

 
Wyvern 4Glaive Atomic vs Odin Heavy Revolve
W4GAt: 1 win (1 KO) - 10 % 
OHR: 9 wins (5 OS, 4 bursts) - 90%
Notes: The ko was a snipe, but I counted that. Basically, Wyvern couldn't really destabilize Odin, nor could it OS it. My Odin went nuts today and started a bursting spree, but oh well.

Neptune 4Glaive Atomic vs Odin Heavy Revolve
N4GAt: 1 win (1 OS) - 10 % 
OHR: 9 wins (2 OS, 2 KO, 5 bursts) - 90%

Notes: Yet again, Neptune didn't really have that much destabilization ability. It didn't have enough stamina to outspin Odin.

[b][u]Odin 4Glaive Atomic vs Odin Heavy Revolve[/u][/b]
O4GAt: 5 wins (3 OS, 2 Bursts) - 50 % 
OHR: 5 wins (1 OS, 4 bursts) - 50%
Notes: Odin had much more stamina this time. However, it didn't really destabilize OHR, and its burst resistance ability was weaker when on Atomic than on Revolve. 
[u][u]Acid Anubis 4Glaive Atomic vs Odin Heavy Revolve[/u][/u]
A24GAt: 5 wins (3 OS, 2 bursts) - 50 % 
OHR: 5 wins (4 OS, 1 burst) - 50%

Notes: Not really much destabilization properties with A2 either. However, the burst resistance on Acid Anubis was definitely better than the previous Odin test.
[b][u][b][u][b][u]Blaze Ragnaruk 4Glaive Atomic vs Odin Heavy Revolve[/u][/b][/u][/b][/u][/b]
bR4GAt: 6 wins (3 OS, 3 bursts) - 60 % 
OHR: 4 wins (1 OS, 2KO, 1 burst) - 40%
Notes: Saw some legitimate destabilizing action here. Blaze Ragnaruk would push Odin out of the center, and Odin would start circling and precess on its Revolve. Its stamina quickly depleted and resulted in an OS for Blaze Ragnaruk. Note that there's a spot on my At which is a bit flat (manufacturing error) so that resulted in some mid game imbalance and OS losses for Blaze Ragnaruk.
[b][u][b][u][b][u][b][u]Alter Chronos 4Glaive Atomic vs Odin Heavy Revolve[/u][/b][/u][/b][/u][/b][/u][/b]
aC4GAt: 9 wins (3 OS., 1KO, 5 bursts) - 90 % 
OHR: 1 wins (4 os, 1 burst) - 50%
Notes: Alter Chronos was on fire. It could consistently push Odin out of the center and do what Ragnaruk did in the previous test. Note that 2 of the bursts were actually late game bursts, meaning Odin was on the verge of falling over on Heavy before it was bursted by Alter Chronos.

Results:
Wyvern <Neptune< Odin< Acid Anubis (burst priority)< Blaze Ragnaruk< Alter Chronos

This can be explained clearly. Blaze Ragnaruk and Alter Chronos are on the heavier spectrum of layers, meaning that they require more force to be moved. With low recoil, they don't move much when in battle with Odin, while Odin was knocked out of the center pretty much. They both have great teeth, better than the ones of the prior layers, resulting in less burst losses compared to Odin and Acid Anubis. I believe Alter Chronos mainly won because of its weight and width - it's reasonably more heavier than Blaze Ragnaruk, and its diameter covered the whole of Glaive. Having great outwards weight distribution and high KO defense, it could hold its ground against Odin excellently and defeat it by knocking it around, destabilizing it. 

(Jul. 14, 2017  5:41 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote:

(Jul. 14, 2017  3:36 PM)lovesick Wrote: You phrased it better than I did. I'll edit it a bit for accuracy and put it into the OP. Thanks for the contribution!




EDIT: Some testing on destabilizers done. Added to the OP.

Spoiler (Click to View)

Opponent: Odin ( this Odin is not the one I used for my conventional stamina testing) Heavy Revolve
(A staple stamina combo. Odin, through testing in this thread and tournament experience, has high stamina properties. Also, tournament experience has found its burst defense and ko defense properties to be above average. Heavy's weight increases its ko defense. Revolve has high stamina, but does not have good destabilization defense. This allows for good comparison between the stamina layer setups, on the ability to actually outspin the opponent.)

Setup: _____ 4Glaive Atomic
(4Glaive has heavy weight, balanced weight distribution and a low center of gravity, increasing its ko defense and overall balance properties. Atomic as a bottom can resist toppling till the last few rotations, making it a solid choice for beyblades focusing and destabilizing others while not being destabilized themselves. Its aggression helps with knocking the opponent off balance.

Layers tested:
Wyvern, Neptune, Odin (I have two), Acid Anubis, Blaze Ragnaruk, Alter Chronos

Equipment:
B-09 standard attack type stadium
String launcher speed version

Procedure: Beyblades launched first alternatively. Destabilizer banked, Odin regular launched.

Tests: (ascending order of win rate)

Spoiler (Click to View)

 
Wyvern 4Glaive Atomic vs Odin Heavy Revolve
W4GAt: 1 win (1 KO) - 10 % 
OHR: 9 wins (5 OS, 4 bursts) - 90%
Notes: The ko was a snipe, but I counted that. Basically, Wyvern couldn't really destabilize Odin, nor could it OS it. My Odin went nuts today and started a bursting spree, but oh well.

Neptune 4Glaive Atomic vs Odin Heavy Revolve
N4GAt: 1 win (1 OS) - 10 % 
OHR: 9 wins (2 OS, 2 KO, 5 bursts) - 90%

Notes: Yet again, Neptune didn't really have that much destabilization ability. It didn't have enough stamina to outspin Odin.

[b][u]Odin 4Glaive Atomic vs Odin Heavy Revolve[/u][/b]
O4GAt: 5 wins (3 OS, 2 Bursts) - 50 % 
OHR: 5 wins (1 OS, 4 bursts) - 50%
Notes: Odin had much more stamina this time. However, it didn't really destabilize OHR, and its burst resistance ability was weaker when on Atomic than on Revolve. 
[u][u]Acid Anubis 4Glaive Atomic vs Odin Heavy Revolve[/u][/u]
A24GAt: 5 wins (3 OS, 2 bursts) - 50 % 
OHR: 5 wins (4 OS, 1 burst) - 50%

Notes: Not really much destabilization properties with A2 either. However, the burst resistance on Acid Anubis was definitely better than the previous Odin test.
[b][u][b][u][b][u]Blaze Ragnaruk 4Glaive Atomic vs Odin Heavy Revolve[/u][/b][/u][/b][/u][/b]
bR4GAt: 6 wins (3 OS, 3 bursts) - 60 % 
OHR: 4 wins (1 OS, 2KO, 1 burst) - 40%
Notes: Saw some legitimate destabilizing action here. Blaze Ragnaruk would push Odin out of the center, and Odin would start circling and precess on its Revolve. Its stamina quickly depleted and resulted in an OS for Blaze Ragnaruk. Note that there's a spot on my At which is a bit flat (manufacturing error) so that resulted in some mid game imbalance and OS losses for Blaze Ragnaruk.
[b][u][b][u][b][u][b][u]Alter Chronos 4Glaive Atomic vs Odin Heavy Revolve[/u][/b][/u][/b][/u][/b][/u][/b]
aC4GAt: 9 wins (3 OS., 1KO, 5 bursts) - 90 % 
OHR: 1 wins (4 os, 1 burst) - 50%
Notes: Alter Chronos was on fire. It could consistently push Odin out of the center and do what Ragnaruk did in the previous test. Note that 2 of the bursts were actually late game bursts, meaning Odin was on the verge of falling over on Heavy before it was bursted by Alter Chronos.

Results:
Wyvern <Neptune< Odin< Acid Anubis (burst priority)< Blaze Ragnaruk< Alter Chronos

This can be explained clearly. Blaze Ragnaruk and Alter Chronos are on the heavier spectrum of layers, meaning that they require more force to be moved. With low recoil, they don't move much when in battle with Odin, while Odin was knocked out of the center pretty much. They both have great teeth, better than the ones of the prior layers, resulting in less burst losses compared to Odin and Acid Anubis. I believe Alter Chronos mainly won because of its weight and width - it's reasonably more heavier than Blaze Ragnaruk, and its diameter covered the whole of Glaive. Having great outwards weight distribution and high KO defense, it could hold its ground against Odin excellently and defeat it by knocking it around, destabilizing it. 

Thanks i am always happy To conTribue i wanTed To say  I think we should take the burst attack of stamina layers into consideration because there are some stamina layers that have good burst attack(eg bR) which they use to burst stamina layers which have greater stamina than them. Imagine a bR based combo say bR 8G D against an A2 based combo A2 S r so the only way for the bR combo to win would be either BF or destabilization cuz A2 has better stamina than bR but bR is more aggressive than A2.also to declare that one layer is better than other have to take in consideration every aspect eg their recoil,stamina,solo spin,burst attack,burst defense weight distribution etc. also i dont think aC has that much OWD i think its just more wide and more aggressive than bR.

(Jul. 14, 2017  5:54 PM)lovesick Wrote:

(Jul. 14, 2017  5:41 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote: Thanks i am always happy To conTribue i wanTed To say  I think we should take the burst attack of stamina layers into consideration because there are some stamina layers that have good burst attack(eg bR) which they use to burst stamina layers which have greater stamina than them. Imagine a bR based combo say bR 8G D against an A2 based combo A2 S r so the only way for the bR combo to win would be either BF or destabilization cuz A2 has better stamina than bR but bR is more aggressive than A2.also to declare that one layer is better than other have to take in consideration every aspect eg their recoil,stamina,solo spin,burst attack,burst defense weight distribution etc. also i dont think aC has that much OWD i think its just more wide and more aggressive than bR.

I should probably test the stamina layers against storm spriggan to test if they can consistently burst it or smth lol

For the best layers thing, I think we can make it tailored for each setup. I mean, having Ragnaruk on Revolve won't help you burst stuff and it'll still lose to Neptune and Odin. But on defense, things change a lot.

(Jul. 14, 2017  5:54 PM)lovesick Wrote:

(Jul. 14, 2017  5:41 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote: Thanks i am always happy To conTribue i wanTed To say  I think we should take the burst attack of stamina layers into consideration because there are some stamina layers that have good burst attack(eg bR) which they use to burst stamina layers which have greater stamina than them. Imagine a bR based combo say bR 8G D against an A2 based combo A2 S r so the only way for the bR combo to win would be either BF or destabilization cuz A2 has better stamina than bR but bR is more aggressive than A2.also to declare that one layer is better than other have to take in consideration every aspect eg their recoil,stamina,solo spin,burst attack,burst defense weight distribution etc. also i dont think aC has that much OWD i think its just more wide and more aggressive than bR.

I should probably test the stamina layers against storm spriggan to test if they can consistently burst it or smth lol

For the best layers thing, I think we can make it tailored for each setup. I mean, having Ragnaruk on Revolve won't help you burst stuff and it'll still lose to Neptune and Odin. But on defense, things change a lot.

(Jul. 15, 2017  3:06 AM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote:

(Jul. 14, 2017  5:54 PM)lovesick Wrote: I should probably test the stamina layers against storm spriggan to test if they can consistently burst it or smth lol

For the best layers thing, I think we can make it tailored for each setup. I mean, having Ragnaruk on Revolve won't help you burst stuff and it'll still lose to Neptune and Odin. But on defense, things change a lot.

Tbh Storm Sprigen isn't as good due to its bad teeth. I agree its shape is like best for attack (it deals with left spin best too) but its very less used due to its teeth so I think using some more commonly used layer for thie test would make it easier for people to judge the test.

I think Valky or V2 would be good. Or much more common Ragtovpr

(Jul. 15, 2017  6:38 AM)Rebel Blader Wrote:

(Jul. 15, 2017  3:06 AM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote: Tbh Storm Sprigen isn't as good due to its bad teeth. I agree its shape is like best for attack (it deals with left spin best too) but its very less used due to its teeth so I think using some more commonly used layer for thie test would make it easier for people to judge the test.

I think Valky or V2 would be good. Or much more common Ragtovpr

he waants to test burst attack of layers so basically he needs a combo with moderate burst defense. i think W/K G Defense /Survive would be the best opponent combo to check burst attack of stamina layers.

(Jul. 15, 2017  2:59 PM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote:

(Jul. 15, 2017  6:38 AM)Rebel Blader Wrote: he waants to test burst attack of layers so basically he needs a combo with moderate burst defense. i think W/K G Defense /Survive would be the best opponent combo to check burst attack of stamina layers.

No offense but tbh testing against Kerbeus doesn't prove anything as its not at all used.

I would say A2 would be perfect as its kind of a treat for stationary combos due to its ability to destabilise at fast speed. If a layer can burst it then it would be quite useful maybe against gK too as its best stamina layer atm

Edit:- if it can burst those 2. Haha feeling sad for you Chaos beyhaha

Edit 2:- Wyvern is kinda hard to burst. I mean its sure easier then Neptune but even dedicated stationary attacker can't burst it as well (aka V_R) so if a stamina defence oayer could do that would be op lol

But anyways thanks alot for this thread and all who contributed here ;)

(Jul. 15, 2017  2:59 PM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote:

(Jul. 15, 2017  6:38 AM)Rebel Blader Wrote: he waants to test burst attack of layers so basically he needs a combo with moderate burst defense. i think W/K G Defense /Survive would be the best opponent combo to check burst attack of stamina layers.

No offense but tbh testing against Kerbeus doesn't prove anything as its not at all used.

I would say A2 would be perfect as its kind of a treat for stationary combos due to its ability to destabilise at fast speed. If a layer can burst it then it would be quite useful maybe against gK too as its best stamina layer atm

Edit:- if it can burst those 2. Haha feeling sad for you Chaos beyhaha

Edit 2:- Wyvern is kinda hard to burst. I mean its sure easier then Neptune but even dedicated stationary attacker can't burst it as well (aka V_R) so if a stamina defence oayer could do that would be op lol

But anyways thanks alot for this thread and all who contributed here