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+---- Thread: Standard Meta Analysis (/Thread-Standard-Meta-Analysis)
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - RagerBlade - Jun. 08, 2014
(Jun. 08, 2014 6:46 PM)AZL Wrote: Your conclusion is correct.I think the best way is to Tornado Stall, but on occasion it can mess up, so then you go with a sliding shot. I usually just use a straight-forward Wyvang Dragooon because it can survive against Right Spin Attackers and Left Spinners, it's also pretty nice in weight. It's a nice solid way to KO 230 Defensive combos that try to take control of the center. Combined with Stalling it's a 80% KO percentage.
Just the right lauch and the right bey and you can KO anything as everything has counters. The problem: choosing the right bey/launch.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - Ocean - Jun. 08, 2014
Yep, I learned that too. Pretty consistent KOs. Fun to mess around too. I like stalling/light banks against E230 , just stalling against F230.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - RagerBlade - Jun. 08, 2014
(Jun. 08, 2014 7:01 PM)AZL Wrote: Yep, I learned that too. Pretty consistent KOs. Fun to mess around too. I like stalling/light banks against E230 , just stalling against F230.I've actually never tried it against E230. Does that technique work out good against it? E230 probably has a lot better defense, so I don't know. It's work a couple tests.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - Ocean - Jun. 08, 2014
Yes, both strategies are very effective.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - Cake - Jun. 08, 2014
(Jun. 08, 2014 6:21 PM)RagerBlade Wrote:(Jun. 08, 2014 6:19 PM)Cake Wrote: Yeah, left-spin wrecks Phantom. It doesn't KO, but it has pretty much no trouble OSing Phantom.So your saying taller Beyblades provide better defense, right?
And by saying that Wyvang is on XF, I don't mean to actually use XF - I'm saying that breaking contact with the floor negates any grip that RF provides, and thus it acts like a low-grip tip. Airborne Beyblades don't improve Defense/recoil handling with rubber tips, because the rubber isn't touching anything to provide grip on.
I'm saying shorter Beyblades provide better Defense.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - RagerBlade - Jun. 08, 2014
(Jun. 08, 2014 8:07 PM)Cake Wrote:How so? It's harder to KO E230 then virtually anything. Same with Duo 230. Give me an example of a shorter bey that is harder to KO them E230 and Duo 230.(Jun. 08, 2014 6:21 PM)RagerBlade Wrote:(Jun. 08, 2014 6:19 PM)Cake Wrote: Yeah, left-spin wrecks Phantom. It doesn't KO, but it has pretty much no trouble OSing Phantom.So your saying taller Beyblades provide better defense, right?
And by saying that Wyvang is on XF, I don't mean to actually use XF - I'm saying that breaking contact with the floor negates any grip that RF provides, and thus it acts like a low-grip tip. Airborne Beyblades don't improve Defense/recoil handling with rubber tips, because the rubber isn't touching anything to provide grip on.
I'm saying shorter Beyblades provide better Defense.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - Neo - Jun. 08, 2014
(Jun. 08, 2014 8:09 PM)RagerBlade Wrote:Shorter Defense Combos can provide Attacks under another Blade.(Jun. 08, 2014 8:07 PM)Cake Wrote:How so? It's harder to KO E230 then virtually anything. Same with Duo 230. Give me an example of a shorter bey that is harder to KO them E230 and Duo 230.(Jun. 08, 2014 6:21 PM)RagerBlade Wrote: So your saying taller Beyblades provide better defense, right?
I'm saying shorter Beyblades provide better Defense.
As long as it won't scrape, shorter is better.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - RagerBlade - Jun. 08, 2014
(Jun. 08, 2014 8:11 PM)Neo~ Wrote:I am asking if they're better then 230 though. I've done enough tests to know that 230 is usually the most reliable track for Defense. Theres a reason it's on the top tier.(Jun. 08, 2014 8:09 PM)RagerBlade Wrote:Shorter Defense Combos can provide Attacks under another Blade.(Jun. 08, 2014 8:07 PM)Cake Wrote: I'm saying shorter Beyblades provide better Defense.How so? It's harder to KO E230 then virtually anything. Same with Duo 230. Give me an example of a shorter bey that is harder to KO them E230 and Duo 230.
As long as it won't scrape, shorter is better.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - Neo - Jun. 08, 2014
(Jun. 08, 2014 8:13 PM)RagerBlade Wrote:(Jun. 08, 2014 8:11 PM)Neo~ Wrote:I am asking if they're better then 230 though. I've done enough tests to know that 230 is usually the most reliable track for Defense. Theres a reason it's on the top tier.(Jun. 08, 2014 8:09 PM)RagerBlade Wrote: How so? It's harder to KO E230 then virtually anything. Same with Duo 230. Give me an example of a shorter bey that is harder to KO them E230 and Duo 230.Shorter Defense Combos can provide Attacks under another Blade.
As long as it won't scrape, shorter is better.
Then yes, as long as there's no scraping.
If you have a taller Defense Tip on 85 there's not gonna be a lot of scraping.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - RagerBlade - Jun. 08, 2014
(Jun. 08, 2014 8:19 PM)Neo~ Wrote:There's no scraping on 230... 85 on defense though? It's used primarily for attack, I've never actually seen it used on defense.(Jun. 08, 2014 8:13 PM)RagerBlade Wrote:(Jun. 08, 2014 8:11 PM)Neo~ Wrote: Shorter Defense Combos can provide Attacks under another Blade.I am asking if they're better then 230 though. I've done enough tests to know that 230 is usually the most reliable track for Defense. Theres a reason it's on the top tier.
As long as it won't scrape, shorter is better.
Then yes, as long as there's no scraping.
If you have a taller Defense Tip on 85 there's not gonna be a lot of scraping.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - Neo - Jun. 08, 2014
(Jun. 08, 2014 8:23 PM)RagerBlade Wrote:(Jun. 08, 2014 8:19 PM)Neo~ Wrote:There's no scraping on 230... 85 on defense though? It's used primarily for attack, I've never actually seen it used on defense.(Jun. 08, 2014 8:13 PM)RagerBlade Wrote: I am asking if they're better then 230 though. I've done enough tests to know that 230 is usually the most reliable track for Defense. Theres a reason it's on the top tier.
Then yes, as long as there's no scraping.
If you have a taller Defense Tip on 85 there's not gonna be a lot of scraping.
It can work.
I'm testing a certain combo that's using 85WB for defense and 'Upper Attack'.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - RagerBlade - Jun. 08, 2014
(Jun. 08, 2014 8:27 PM)Neo~ Wrote:Yes please post those tests. I want to see "low track Defense combos".(Jun. 08, 2014 8:23 PM)RagerBlade Wrote:(Jun. 08, 2014 8:19 PM)Neo~ Wrote: Then yes, as long as there's no scraping.There's no scraping on 230... 85 on defense though? It's used primarily for attack, I've never actually seen it used on defense.
If you have a taller Defense Tip on 85 there's not gonna be a lot of scraping.
It can work.
I'm testing a certain combo that's using 85WB for defense and 'Upper Attack'.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - Cake - Jun. 09, 2014
LTDC are/were an important element of Defense; if you take a look at the Limited meta you will see a number of those popping up. The issue with LTDCs in Standard is that there are no Defense wheels that do not have scraping issues on low tracks. Duo and Death are both low-hanging and can be forced to scrape quite easily by anything with a moderate amount of Force Smash. The same applies to a lesser extent for Revizer and Killerken. I have not had a chance to test Genbull^2 on LTDC, as I only recently got my second Genbull and haven't done a whole lot with it. However, IIRC, Genbull is actually somewhat too tall to work properly; it has more weight than Phantom, but it is also just tall enough that it takes more significant hits from attackers and can't simply let them glance off like Phantom does.
So the issue is more with a lack of appropriate MWs than a problem with the concept itself.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - 6 God - Jun. 09, 2014
LTDC's are the main way to defeat Omega IIRC.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - RagerBlade - Jun. 09, 2014
That's true, but isn't weight one of the most important characteristics of Defense? Genbull Genbull isn't a Beyblade that's way to heavy and with the right parts it can hold off Wyvang Wyavng and combos as such. BTW Genbull is just the Metal Wheel, and there's no real thing called too tall in metal wheels. I would refer to it as too thick, but that's not a big argument. What exactly at this point are you trying to prove to me here?
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - Cake - Jun. 09, 2014
(Jun. 09, 2014 12:24 AM)RagerBlade Wrote: That's true, but isn't weight one of the most important characteristics of Defense? Genbull Genbull isn't a Beyblade that's way to heavy and with the right parts it can hold off Wyvang Wyavng and combos as such. BTW Genbull is just the Metal Wheel, and there's no real thing called too tall in metal wheels. I would refer to it as too thick, but that's not a big argument. What exactly at this point are you trying to prove to me here?
It most certainly is a big argument. The goal with a LTDC is to be too low for your opponent to effectively hit you, just as 230 defense does the same thing on the other end of the height spectrum. The main consideration with LTDCs is that you have to worry about momentary tilting as the opposing bey smashes into the top of your Beyblade. This rules out RDF as a tip option, as it will ride on its edge and spiral out of control if hit too hard. It also rules out anything that is too thick/low-hanging that will scrape when hit from above. This eliminates Duo and Death as options, as well as Killerken and Revizer. Going through 4D wheels and Chrome Wheels with that filtered out and basic logic (e.g. no Attack that is low-Stamina or super-recoily) you are left with Diablo, Phantom, Kries, and Scythe for 4D and Genbull for Zero-G. Scythe is already proven on Ingulit's combo Scythe Uranus 85RS, which stops Wyvang in its tracks (check out the Wyvang^2 145RF testing thread, Wyvang^2 can only hit 35% against it); I tested Kries and it's pretty much worthless for Defense, and Diablo has insufficient Stamina and a somewhat recoily upper edge. That leaves Phantom and Genbull.
So I just did some new testing, and from what I've seen it seems that Genbull^2 > Phantom for LTDC. It's got similar Stamina, but is significantly heavier. I believe my past tests were skewed by both my use of RB (RSF > RB due to higher Stamina and slightly more predictable movement when hit; RB can suddenly go aggro, which is bad on a Defense type XD ) and my lack of a second Genbull. Substitute wheels just didn't work. I am currently re-testing with MSF-H Genbull^2 85RSF, which is far more effective against Wyvang than Phantom. I don't know how it does against other Attack wheels though; I haven't tested yet. I'll do tests tomorrow and possibly necro my Phantom 85RB thread with the new changes.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - 6 God - Jun. 09, 2014
(Jun. 09, 2014 12:24 AM)RagerBlade Wrote: That's true, but isn't weight one of the most important characteristics of Defense? Genbull Genbull isn't a Beyblade that's way to heavy and with the right parts it can hold off Wyvang Wyavng and combos as such. BTW Genbull is just the Metal Wheel, and there's no real thing called too tall in metal wheels. I would refer to it as too thick, but that's not a big argument. What exactly at this point are you trying to prove to me here?
The main goal of Defense is to stay in the stadium. Whether it be weight, traction, low-recoil, height. All it needs to do is stay in the stadium.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - Neo - Jun. 09, 2014
(Jun. 09, 2014 2:06 AM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote:(Jun. 09, 2014 12:24 AM)RagerBlade Wrote: That's true, but isn't weight one of the most important characteristics of Defense? Genbull Genbull isn't a Beyblade that's way to heavy and with the right parts it can hold off Wyvang Wyavng and combos as such. BTW Genbull is just the Metal Wheel, and there's no real thing called too tall in metal wheels. I would refer to it as too thick, but that's not a big argument. What exactly at this point are you trying to prove to me here?
The main goal of Defense is to stay in the stadium. Whether it be weight, traction, low-recoil, height. All it needs to do is stay in the stadium.
Or outlast Endurance Types...
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - RagerBlade - Jun. 09, 2014
(Jun. 09, 2014 2:35 AM)Neo~ Wrote:Not really... That's just an extra that can make the combo better. It's main goal is to defeat Attack Types. Defense means to be able to defend.(Jun. 09, 2014 2:06 AM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote:(Jun. 09, 2014 12:24 AM)RagerBlade Wrote: That's true, but isn't weight one of the most important characteristics of Defense? Genbull Genbull isn't a Beyblade that's way to heavy and with the right parts it can hold off Wyvang Wyavng and combos as such. BTW Genbull is just the Metal Wheel, and there's no real thing called too tall in metal wheels. I would refer to it as too thick, but that's not a big argument. What exactly at this point are you trying to prove to me here?
The main goal of Defense is to stay in the stadium. Whether it be weight, traction, low-recoil, height. All it needs to do is stay in the stadium.
Or outlast Endurance Types...
Cake I will give my counter argument tomorrow. Too busy at this point.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - 6 God - Jun. 09, 2014
(Jun. 09, 2014 2:35 AM)Neo~ Wrote:Defense types aren't designed to do that. RagerBlade, how do you think they do so?(Jun. 09, 2014 2:06 AM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote:(Jun. 09, 2014 12:24 AM)RagerBlade Wrote: That's true, but isn't weight one of the most important characteristics of Defense? Genbull Genbull isn't a Beyblade that's way to heavy and with the right parts it can hold off Wyvang Wyavng and combos as such. BTW Genbull is just the Metal Wheel, and there's no real thing called too tall in metal wheels. I would refer to it as too thick, but that's not a big argument. What exactly at this point are you trying to prove to me here?
The main goal of Defense is to stay in the stadium. Whether it be weight, traction, low-recoil, height. All it needs to do is stay in the stadium.
Or outlast Endurance Types...
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - Ocean - Jun. 13, 2014
I am here to revive this thread before it becomes inactive! I generally am annoyed with the meta here in NY, it's all Duos and Dragooons. It is BORING and LAME! Is it like this in other states?
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - Pokemo - Jun. 13, 2014
(Jun. 13, 2014 10:09 PM)AZL Wrote: I am here to revive this thread before it becomes inactive! I generally am annoyed with the meta here in NY, it's all Duos and Dragooons. It is BORING and LAME! Is it like this in other states?don't worry, that is why I used gravity B
and yes, the game has become very BORING, that's why I was forced to use my combo or I have no other way of countering it 
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - Ocean - Jun. 14, 2014
I changed it up a little with Flash and _____ Genbull E230 TB/MB. The meta here is getting funner here with ppl using ATK now.
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - Cake - Jun. 15, 2014
Attack metas are so much fun... Even if you don't do so well in a tournament, Attack v Attack is extremely fun to watch and play. And, of course, the entire reason anyone should be in a hobby (such as Beyblade) is that it should be enjoyable, right?
RE: Standard Meta Analysis - Neo - Jun. 15, 2014
(Jun. 15, 2014 12:05 AM)Cake Wrote: Attack metas are so much fun... Even if you don't do so well in a tournament, Attack v Attack is extremely fun to watch and play. And, of course, the entire reason anyone should be in a hobby (such as Beyblade) is that it should be enjoyable, right?
I totally agree.
Defense and Stamina types are so boring to watch.
It would be cool to have an all attack format. Exciting~!!