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+--- Thread: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks (/Thread-The-Borrow-and-Announce-rule-in-the-rulebooks)
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RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - th!nk - Oct. 06, 2021
I apologise in advance for going on a tear here - but this hits close to home for myself and the tournaments I ran. Accessibility is important, and not disadvantaging and embarrassing those with poorer part access unnecessarily is one of the biggest aspects of that. As such, I don't have a "nice" way to put a lot of my thoughts on this, but I think I need to state them nonetheless.
As someone who cares deeply about accessibility and has hosted two tournaments where players had limited part access, this rule sucks. It's honestly disgusting to me - it reads like it was written by someone who wants to protect their beyrank by not being surprised, not having their opposition research messed with, over making the game fun for newbies and those who have less money to spend on tops. It blatantly disadvantages people with poorer part access and I don't think anyone can actually deny that. It's damned shameful, and it's also classist as hell. Force some kid to stand up and say "I borrowed parts" every match and if he forgets, bam, pinged? C'mon.
There are two reasons I can see to justify the rule, and I have some counterpoints:
1. Theft - to stop people not returning parts.
It is not an organisers job or the WBOs to prevent theft via non return - in fact, by taking on any responsibility for this I worry it does impose some liability on us. This is also not a measure taken in any other competitive game I know of. It should be quite clear that lending parts is at your own risk and you can take responsibility for your own actions, and it's already very clear that theft is wrong. We can trust people to not need us to baby them like that at the expense of those with poorer part access. What's to stop someone taking it, not announcing it, and then the other person saying they did, and them denying it? The rule doesn't help and it's really not our problem.
2. Stop gang-ups.
Okay, you don't want people handing around a combo to beat you - sure. First off, this isn't exactly something I see happening at most events, most of our players in most areas are pretty chill and good natured and will call out bullying - this is an incredibly clumsy way to address that and I'm not convinced it's realistic. Secondly, if you're high ranked and they are doing it, maybe consider some things - 1. Why people want to go to that length to beat you (there is a good chance it isn't just your rank that would make people go to that effort) and 2. You should be showing every opponent the respect of not assuming what they will use based on their ability to buy parts. 3. If you can't overcome that and prepare for it, are you really that great a blader? 4. Most importantly of all - what is the difference between them having borrowed those parts and owning them but having hidden them til they faced you. How do you know going into a match what they have and can afford? Why is a Bey-Credit-Check a factoring into your decision making? You should be prepared to assume someone does have good part access and not taking people as easy wins based on your knowledge of what beyblades they have been able to afford. Shame on you.
Hell, what if they don't borrow but instead buy them off another player half way through the event? And that player buys them back for the same amount? Was it borrowed? There are plenty of ways for people to pull this off if they wanted to, and if they did I'm sure they would have done it by now. Sure seems like a lot of nothing to be disadvantaging people over. On the contrary - what if I slip a part with a marking showing it is mine into your bag, and then say you borrowed it from me when you face my friend? Who is to say who is lying? We just create problems with this rule.
Now lets look at some scenarios from The Only Show In Perth! and Perth Plastics Pandemonium, my two tournaments in my backwater area, and how they would have played out - these occurred back before this rule, both about a decade ago (hello, i'm old).
The Only Show in Perth, MFB Standard, 2011 - this is right after Beat Lynx came out, Basalt, BD145 and 230 dominating the meta, I used a range of combos but in the end leant on my most recent combo, MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170WF to pull through against the big guns. A great time for all, with a huge range of ages and a really warm community vibe.
One of my favourite memories is thus. We had a kid, probably like 8 years old I think? Playing. Had one Beyblade, and the WD bottom was beat to hell. We gave him one. Would that child have had to announce that every round? Would that have been fun or would it have been embarrassing? Instead he took a couple of matches here and there and had a good time. Kids, having a good time playing beyblades instead of being oppo researched by someone my age? Messed up I guess that we didn't make him announce every round that he borrowed a part, without reminding him, how silly of us. This isn't limited to 10 years ago either, as above, people show up with fakes, we gonna make them remember to say the magic "don't lose instantly" words every match? What experience does that make, you turn the heartwarming community moment of everyone coming together to help someone out into a chore. Good on you, I guess.
Perth Plastics Pandemonium
I lent Beyblades to the majority of bladers in this tournament, because plastics. Do they every match announce they are borrowing parts from me? Once again, a rule where no one thinks about plastics, woweeeee it's like no one thinks of plastics before adding stuff to the plastics rulebook like no shared parts in a generation where that reduces deck format to basically the same 3 types and removes things like force smash from the game but anyway yaaaaaaaaaaaaay we did it gang we stopped.... whatever this rule is supposed to stop and all it cost us was making any plastics tournament absolutely torturous! Good work team!
Beyblade, in the anime, has always involved teamwork - there is an episode of Bakuten where Tyson, Kenny and Max come together to build a Beyblade for a kid, for example - it's one of my favourite episodes, in fact (also, the combo they built was extremely meta for the time, good stuff). It has always been for kids, and I have always treated tournaments, when I am lucky enough to be able to host them, as a community event. We're making rules that counteract the mateship and accessibility of the game, and personally I think it's shameful.
Lastly, this again is another rule that someone can keep in their back pocket waiting to spring if a game doesn't go their way. If they win, they can keep it to themselves, but if they lose they can contest it. This is easily addressed by the suggestion of having judges ask, but then if they forget you get to argue even more. It doesn't actually seem to help anyone and it sure seems to hurt the people we should be trying to avoid hurting, so turf the bloody thing and let's just have a good time spinning tops.
E: One more note - if we are at least agreed that sharing parts is on the whole a positive action, one must consider that announcing that you are using someone's parts can lead to others asking that person why they didn't share with them instead. Very awkward position to put someone in, and you gotta remember a lot of our players are kids. Then there's kids who are shy or even non-verbal, which is something we need to be accommodating of. This rule just seems so fundamentally bad in so many ways... I'm astonished that it is part of our rules.
E2: Also, the advice part of the rule is just... How do you enforce that? If I take it to mean during selection, what is to stop me walking up and giving unsolicited advice and then my friend pinging you if you don't think to announce it? And sure, maybe not, but what's to stop me then actually getting advice but staging it a bit and then claiming that's what happened? What an odd thing to police! This doesn't even relate to part theft so what does it do except shore up your opposition research? Such a bizarre rule.
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - Lucha Burst - Oct. 06, 2021
(Oct. 06, 2021 4:16 AM)Shindog Wrote:(Oct. 05, 2021 4:07 PM)Lucha Burst Wrote: thats why i suggest we build on the rule rather then get rid of itThis is why I replaced the “Beyblade part” with $20. Why are we treating a Beyblade part unlike $20? For example, what if I borrowed the $20 and bought a Beyblade part at the event to use at the event? Should I announce that? Whether or I steal a Beyblade part or $20, it is still stealing right?
there are different circumstances between 20$ and a beyblade part being borrowed at a WBO event, But yes either way it's still stealing
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - TheRogueBlader - Oct. 06, 2021
(Oct. 06, 2021 5:21 PM)Lucha Burst Wrote:Why would a part be 20$ though? Isn’t a whole beyblade usually like 20-30$ for the newer or recent stuff? And because each bey has at least 5 parts I would think each part would be 5 bucks, maybe the disc is like 10$ and the armor is like 2$ or something but you know. Would letting someone borrow a part be bad? Cause I personally don’t think it would be(Oct. 06, 2021 4:16 AM)Shindog Wrote: This is why I replaced the “Beyblade part” with $20. Why are we treating a Beyblade part unlike $20? For example, what if I borrowed the $20 and bought a Beyblade part at the event to use at the event? Should I announce that? Whether or I steal a Beyblade part or $20, it is still stealing right?
there are different circumstances between 20$ and a beyblade part being borrowed at a WBO event, But yes either way it's still stealing
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - Shindog - Oct. 06, 2021
(Oct. 06, 2021 5:34 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote:I don’t think issue is the dollar amount, but if we want to go that direction, how much is a Metal Drift to buy by itself right now? If we want to go back a little bit, how much is Zn’+Z to buy by itself?(Oct. 06, 2021 5:21 PM)Lucha Burst Wrote: there are different circumstances between 20$ and a beyblade part being borrowed at a WBO event, But yes either way it's still stealingWhy would a part be 20$ though? Isn’t a whole beyblade usually like 20-30$ for the newer or recent stuff? And because each bey has at least 5 parts I would think each part would be 5 bucks, maybe the disc is like 10$ and the armor is like 2$ or something but you know. Would letting someone borrow a part be bad? Cause I personally don’t think it would be
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - Shindog - Oct. 06, 2021
(Oct. 06, 2021 5:21 PM)Lucha Burst Wrote:Different circumstance or not, should someone who borrowed money to buy Beyblade parts at the event be required to announce the borrowing of the money to buy beyblade parts? To announce who they borrowed money form? Do they then have to announce who they bought parts from also? Is borrowing the money any business of the WBO? That is receiving help for the event, right?(Oct. 06, 2021 4:16 AM)Shindog Wrote: This is why I replaced the “Beyblade part” with $20. Why are we treating a Beyblade part unlike $20? For example, what if I borrowed the $20 and bought a Beyblade part at the event to use at the event? Should I announce that? Whether or I steal a Beyblade part or $20, it is still stealing right?
there are different circumstances between 20$ and a beyblade part being borrowed at a WBO event, But yes either way it's still stealing
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - Lucha Burst - Oct. 06, 2021
(Oct. 06, 2021 7:49 PM)Shindog Wrote:(Oct. 06, 2021 5:21 PM)Lucha Burst Wrote: there are different circumstances between 20$ and a beyblade part being borrowed at a WBO event, But yes either way it's still stealingDifferent circumstance or not, should someone who borrowed money to buy Beyblade parts at the event be required to announce the borrowing of the money to buy beyblade parts? To announce who they borrowed money form? Do they then have to announce who they bought parts from also? Is borrowing the money any business of the WBO? That is receiving help for the event, right?
I Get what your saying, Maybe the rule is unnecessary
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - TheRogueBlader - Oct. 07, 2021
Some thoughts:
Should the Borrowing Parts rule be allowed?
Yes. No reason not to. Fellow bladers let other bladers borrow each other’s parts. If they don’t want to lend it for whatever reason than don’t force them to, it’s their part anyway.
Buying Parts
This rule is a bit iffy. First of all, it can already happen wether it’s a rule or not so… that doesn’t leave us with much control. But some advice I can offer and hopefully others can offer too is that Parts should be in the range of 2$-8$ Nothing should be more expensive. Beyblade stock combos on their own are like 20$-30$ nowadays and come with 5 parts, and each part should be priced for its value. If someone is selling high jaggy’ for 20$ that’s their problem cause nobody’s gonna buy it. I say let the bladers sell their parts and if other blades want to buy it then they can buy it. If you get into arguments about “oh so and so didn’t this part” or whatever, then you’ll need witnesses. If it goes beyond that and you reaaally can’t decide than just battle over it and winner takes all if the part is above 5$. If the part is like 2$-4$ then just let the owenr keep it. It’s not like losing 4 bucks is the end of the world. But next time you buy it, have a witness.
Announcing borrowing parts
I don’t think this is necessary. I mean knowing a Blader is borrowing a part could be useful cause if they’re borrowing like drift or something then you know they don’t actually own it and could expand what you would use against them. But like MagikHorse said earlier, nobody really will care. It’s not like you have every single Blader gather around in a circle just to say “hey guys, I’m borrowing zone’+z from so and so” or whatever. I mean you could announce it if you want to, but only the judge and your opponent and maybe 1 person watching from the side is gonna see. I don’t see the use in that as long as it’s returned to the owner when the owner wants, or needs, or asks for it back.
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - GreaterLonginus - Oct. 07, 2021
(Oct. 07, 2021 12:24 AM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: Some thoughts:Some parts are rare like Xtreme dash back in Cho z and you don’t see people selling RB prizes at twenty dollars do you
Should the Borrowing Parts rule be allowed?
Yes. No reason not to. Fellow bladers let other bladers borrow each other’s parts. If they don’t want to lend it for whatever reason than don’t force them to, it’s their part anyway.
Buying Parts
This rule is a bit iffy. First of all, it can already happen wether it’s a rule or not so… that doesn’t leave us with much control. But some advice I can offer and hopefully others can offer too is that Parts should be in the range of 2$-8$ Nothing should be more expensive. Beyblade stock combos on their own are like 20$-30$ nowadays and come with 5 parts, and each part should be priced for its value. If someone is selling high jaggy’ for 20$ that’s their problem cause nobody’s gonna buy it. I say let the bladers sell their parts and if other blades want to buy it then they can buy it. If you get into arguments about “oh so and so didn’t this part” or whatever, then you’ll need witnesses. If it goes beyond that and you reaaally can’t decide than just battle over it and winner takes all if the part is above 5$. If the part is like 2$-4$ then just let the owenr keep it. It’s not like losing 4 bucks is the end of the world. But next time you buy it, have a witness.
Announcing borrowing parts
I don’t think this is necessary. I mean knowing a Blader is borrowing a part could be useful cause if they’re borrowing like drift or something then you know they don’t actually own it and could expand what you would use against them. But like MagikHorse said earlier, nobody really will care. It’s not like you have every single Blader gather around in a circle just to say “hey guys, I’m borrowing zone’+z from so and so” or whatever. I mean you could announce it if you want to, but only the judge and your opponent and maybe 1 person watching from the side is gonna see. I don’t see the use in that as long as it’s returned to the owner when the owner wants, or needs, or asks for it back.
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - TheRogueBlader - Oct. 07, 2021
(Oct. 07, 2021 5:36 PM)GreaterLonginus Wrote:No? What do you mean? I’m confused as to what your point is(Oct. 07, 2021 12:24 AM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: Some thoughts:Some parts are rare like Xtreme dash back in Cho z and you don’t see people selling RB prizes at twenty dollars do you
Should the Borrowing Parts rule be allowed?
Yes. No reason not to. Fellow bladers let other bladers borrow each other’s parts. If they don’t want to lend it for whatever reason than don’t force them to, it’s their part anyway.
Buying Parts
This rule is a bit iffy. First of all, it can already happen wether it’s a rule or not so… that doesn’t leave us with much control. But some advice I can offer and hopefully others can offer too is that Parts should be in the range of 2$-8$ Nothing should be more expensive. Beyblade stock combos on their own are like 20$-30$ nowadays and come with 5 parts, and each part should be priced for its value. If someone is selling high jaggy’ for 20$ that’s their problem cause nobody’s gonna buy it. I say let the bladers sell their parts and if other blades want to buy it then they can buy it. If you get into arguments about “oh so and so didn’t this part” or whatever, then you’ll need witnesses. If it goes beyond that and you reaaally can’t decide than just battle over it and winner takes all if the part is above 5$. If the part is like 2$-4$ then just let the owenr keep it. It’s not like losing 4 bucks is the end of the world. But next time you buy it, have a witness.
Announcing borrowing parts
I don’t think this is necessary. I mean knowing a Blader is borrowing a part could be useful cause if they’re borrowing like drift or something then you know they don’t actually own it and could expand what you would use against them. But like MagikHorse said earlier, nobody really will care. It’s not like you have every single Blader gather around in a circle just to say “hey guys, I’m borrowing zone’+z from so and so” or whatever. I mean you could announce it if you want to, but only the judge and your opponent and maybe 1 person watching from the side is gonna see. I don’t see the use in that as long as it’s returned to the owner when the owner wants, or needs, or asks for it back.
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - th!nk - Oct. 08, 2021
Shin used $20 as a representation of a random amount of money changing hands or being borrowed etc, to point out how weird a rule this is when given some perspective. This isn't a debate about what parts cost guys, the amount in his post isn't relevant
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - Flame~Capricorn - Oct. 08, 2021
Honestly my twin and I share an mfb collection and the fact that this rule doesn't allow for such a thing proves that it needs to be removed, or at the very least, revised
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - MagikHorse - Oct. 08, 2021
(Oct. 08, 2021 8:47 PM)Flame~Capricorn Wrote: Honestly my twin and I share an mfb collection and the fact that this rule doesn't allow for such a thing proves that it needs to be removed, or at the very least, revised
Another good shout-out. I've seen quite a few people with shared collections, but I've never really considered switching parts among that "sharing". I considered it as a dual-ownership deal, with both people having access to those parts freely.
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - Shindog - Oct. 09, 2021
(Oct. 08, 2021 8:47 PM)Flame~Capricorn Wrote: Honestly my twin and I share an mfb collection and the fact that this rule doesn't allow for such a thing proves that it needs to be removed, or at the very least, revised
I think in your case I would say you are not borrowing. You just have part ownership. Then again, why would the WBO be well suited in determining ownership?
What if you lend something that you co-own to player A, and player A decides to lend said part to Player B with your consent. Let’s say Player B doesn’t know you are the co-owner. Player B announces they borrowed the part form Player A, did they break the rule?
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - Shindog - Oct. 11, 2021
I read a recent tournament report and it got me wondering:
If you ask another player what their opponent played because that opponent is your next opponent, are you asking for help? If you receive that information, did you receive help? If so, do you need to announce this help?
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - DeceasedCrab - Oct. 11, 2021
I don't think we're going to get a lot of "I received help" self reporting from scouters.
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - Shindog - Oct. 11, 2021
Well, if they don’t report it, and it can be proven that someone asked for and received this information, then the match may need to be replayed or voided. That is how we enforce this rule as far as I know.
Of course, that is if we think asking “hey, what were they playing?” is indeed a form of asking for help like asking “hey, how do I get to a gas station?” Then players need to announce it. If we say this kind of verbal scouting and questioning is not a form of asking for help, then I guess it’s no problem.
The borrowing part feels weird too. In California and some states, verbal contracts are binding. When you ask to borrow something, that can totally be seen as a verbal contract. So we are saying people must reveal the contents of their contract I guess.
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - MagikHorse - Oct. 11, 2021
Both rules are still as dumb as when I was talking to Shindog last night about, and I'd honestly rather see both of them stripped out of the rulebook.
The "help" rule can be stretched to utterly ridiculous lengths and is thus way too vague and unhelpful (do I have to say I got help learning how to do aggressive launches from a YouTube video over a decade ago? I still use those tips today, after all). It doesn't serve any point other than letting your opponent know what you know, which is strictly to your own disadvantage. Even then, how is an opponent going to know if you've gotten help anyways? Unless there's a witness, it's totally unenforceable because they can just say "no I didn't" and it becomes a "your word against mine" situation.
The sharing rule is also rather nonsensical, as it can be embarrassing for some to admit to the need, distinctly targeting those with fewer options (which I'd rather avoid), and doesn't really achieve anything. You can already see what they're using when the judges clear the combinations, and if you missed it you can just ask them anyways. All this rule does is give anyone who's losing a chance to call someone out as borrowing something to reset the match. If they're winning, they'll never call it out. That's a problem, since it's only real use is exploitative.
No, these don't help at all and don't sit well within an inclusive community.
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - Shindog - Oct. 12, 2021
In another beyblade chat I finally was reminded of one example of when I was forced to reveal what I had borrowed. It was when I was sitting in front of a loan officer.
This is the one example I can think of so far.
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - Shindog - Oct. 14, 2021
As far as being forced to announce that you borrowed something from someone and revealing who you received advice/help from, I can only come up with the courts, outside the WBO.
RE: The Borrow and Announce rule in the rulebooks - th!nk - Oct. 14, 2021
Sorry you must pass the bey credit check to compete 😤
It's such a dumb and discriminatory rule, and so hilariously vague and easy to abuse, it's just a joke to have it in our rulebook.