(Apr. 08, 2018  8:10 AM)Siⱺn Wrote: I think so. With the creation of God/Switchstrike and ChoZ/Metal Layers, They greatly threw away a heaping portion of the metagame into the "Collection Purposes only" Bin. I personally think we should create a new format that bans specific parts, as to allow people with outdated Collections to be able to play a fair shot in tournament.

Here is what I propose:

Banned Layers:

ALL ChoZ and God/swtichstrike layers 
Dark Deathscyther
Lost Longinus
Exceptions: Shelter Regalus and Shadow Orichalcum


Banned Discs:

All Number cores
Heavy
Gravity
Outer
(This is because most top tier combos use heavier than average discs in the standard metagame. Banning them would open up the use of many more discs that can be used)
Exceptions: 11

All frames Banned Due to almost all core number discs being banned. 

Banned Drivers:
No drivers are banned, because the driver meta seems to be largely even.

Feel free to edit this list as much as you want. this is just an early concept. Tweak it as much as you want.

(Apr. 08, 2018  4:38 PM)LordL0Ls Wrote:

(Apr. 08, 2018  8:10 AM)Siⱺn Wrote: I think so. With the creation of God/Switchstrike and ChoZ/Metal Layers, They greatly threw away a heaping portion of the metagame into the "Collection Purposes only" Bin. I personally think we should create a new format that bans specific parts, as to allow people with outdated Collections to be able to play a fair shot in tournament.

Here is what I propose:

Banned Layers:

ALL ChoZ and God/swtichstrike layers 
Dark Deathscyther
Lost Longinus
Exceptions: Shelter Regalus and Shadow Orichalcum


Banned Discs:

All Number cores
Heavy
Gravity
Outer
(This is because most top tier combos use heavier than average discs in the standard metagame. Banning them would open up the use of many more discs that can be used)
Exceptions: 11

All frames Banned Due to almost all core number discs being banned. 

Banned Drivers:
No drivers are banned, because the driver meta seems to be largely even.

Feel free to edit this list as much as you want. this is just an early concept. Tweak it as much as you want.

Legend Spriggan, Nightmare Longinus, Spriggan Requiem, and the Chozetsu beys would most likely make the list for layers. God layer beys, D2, and L2 shouldn't be banned since they are outclassed.

For number discs, 7, 0, and 12 should be banned. Maybe ban Polish, and unban Heavy & Gravity.

Drivers shouldn't get banned, but if they did, Atomic would definitely make the list.

(Apr. 08, 2018  4:26 PM)TheGalaxyHeart Wrote: Why don't we have multiple formats like Smogon does for pokemon? (OverUsed, UnderUsed, RarelyUsed, etc?)

(Apr. 08, 2018  10:09 PM)Siⱺn Wrote:

(Apr. 08, 2018  4:38 PM)LordL0Ls Wrote: Legend Spriggan, Nightmare Longinus, Spriggan Requiem, and the Chozetsu beys would most likely make the list for layers. God layer beys, D2, and L2 shouldn't be banned since they are outclassed.

For number discs, 7, 0, and 12 should be banned. Maybe ban Polish, and unban Heavy & Gravity.

Drivers shouldn't get banned, but if they did, Atomic would definitely make the list.

My greatest concern is that all dual layers are outclassed because of  the God System. Dual layers also tend to have weaker teeth than god layers, which I feel could cause an imbalance for the long run. D2 and L2 were also dominating layers before God, to the point D2 had to be banned. I'm concerned L2 may be too heavy.

If you look at winning combos from the early metagame, they always comprised of Heavy and Gravity discs. All Number discs except for 11 and 12 are heavier than either one of those, probably leading many people to use them over  A-Z discs. I don't really recall anyone using something other than Heavy or Gravity in competitive play prior to Numbers. Since most other discs are roughly around the same weight, I would like too see how people use those instead of relying on a weight creep.

I also want to get rid of left spin in a limited format. Judging from what you have unbanned, dF 4B At, and spammed mG combos would easily dominate the metagame.

(Apr. 08, 2018  10:16 PM)Frostic Fox Wrote:

(Apr. 08, 2018  4:26 PM)TheGalaxyHeart Wrote: Why don't we have multiple formats like Smogon does for pokemon? (OverUsed, UnderUsed, RarelyUsed, etc?)

I don't think Smogon invented it, but I do like the idea of that style. It allows for different levels of play where more parts become more relevant. Interesting thought!

The issue is trying to calcuate/determine those tiers. Calculations are done today to measure what Pokémon are used, which is easy because data can be drawn from the programs to measure how widely used something is.

But just the idea of attempting it seems like it might be useful, giving an interesting perspective. But one step at a time, I guess.

---

(Apr. 08, 2018  10:09 PM)Siⱺn Wrote: My greatest concern is that all dual layers are outclassed because of  the God System. Dual layers also tend to have weaker teeth than god layers, which I feel could cause an imbalance for the long run. D2 and L2 were also dominating layers before God, to the point D2 had to be banned. I'm concerned L2 may be too heavy.

If you look at winning combos from the early metagame, they always comprised of Heavy and Gravity discs. All Number discs except for 11 and 12 are heavier than either one of those, probably leading many people to use them over  A-Z discs. I don't really recall anyone using something other than Heavy or Gravity in competitive play prior to Numbers. Since most other discs are roughly around the same weight, I would like too see how people use those instead of relying on a weight creep.

I also want to get rid of left spin in a limited format. Judging from what you have unbanned, dF 4B At, and spammed mG combos would easily dominate the metagame.

I think it's fair to cut out the God Layer system and what seemed to dominate before, and then see how it plays out. Nothing has to be set in stone from the get-go. It's a game, and what "feels good" requires testing. You try and see what works, and then you can make adjustments over time.

I am not sure I get why you want to cut out left-spinning though? What's the reasoning behind that?

(Apr. 08, 2018  11:03 PM)Siⱺn Wrote: It's not as much as cutting out left spin as it is compared to what  parts comprise of the left spin metagame, because most could be used in competitive play, leave an exception for the dragoons.

I'm mostly afraid of dragoon s and f having the same impact dark knight had on the metal limited metagame.

(Apr. 10, 2018  3:14 AM)Kei Wrote:

(Apr. 04, 2018  3:21 AM)The Supreme One Wrote: Yeah, I have to second this. I'd have no interest in a limited Burst format because the lack of balance in the meta was what drove me away from the series in the first place. Only came back for God because that was when things got interesting (until Sr.7/0.Br popped up).

Just wanted to say that if we were going to do this (we have not had any discussions), we would of course design it in a way so as to avoid the worst parts of what the metagame was like before by banning things like Deathscyther and Dark Deathscyther too. I'd say the emphasis would be on finding a way to make Attack as attractive as possible.

In any case, I think the idea of "Limited" Formats is better as a sort of end game for when the series is approaching the end of its life. It breathed a lot of life into Metal Fight Beyblade at the end for us and became the best format by far for that series, so I'd imagine us taking similar action in the future. But Burst shows no signs of slowing down right now, so it's not really in the cards at the moment.

That, and it's also easier to manage a "Limited" Format when the pool of parts is fixed.

(Apr. 10, 2018  5:30 AM)GemiosBlader10 Wrote: I brought this up a few months ago too. Thanks Frostic Fox for the reminder. I do agree with what Kei mentioned above since the Burst series is still going strong, a lot of new parts planned for the rest of the season it might be a troublesome in building the right banned parts for the limited Burst format.

Initially, my idea for a limited Burst format is that it will have a sub-format underneath. Limited Burst System, Limited Dual Layer System, and Limited God System. Banning Odin, Neptune and Deathscyther for LBS. Banning D2 for LDLS. Banning Sr, nL, lS, and dF for LGS. Although it might get confusing, but I'd love to see what others can think out of this format.

(Apr. 10, 2018  5:37 AM)Siⱺn Wrote: I love that idea!

I need to say however, that we should also ban discs: numbers (other than 11), H, P, and G. Every winning combo spammed these at least once in the metagame.

(Apr. 08, 2018  8:10 AM)Siⱺn Wrote: I think so. With the creation of God/Switchstrike and ChoZ/Metal Layers, They greatly threw away a heaping portion of the metagame into the "Collection Purposes only" Bin. I personally think we should create a new format that bans specific parts, as to allow people with outdated Collections to be able to play a fair shot in tournament.

Here is what I propose:

Banned Layers:

ALL ChoZ and God/swtichstrike layers 
Dark Deathscyther
Lost Longinus
Exceptions: Shelter Regalus and Shadow Orichalcum


Banned Discs:

All Number cores
Heavy
Gravity
Outer
(This is because most top tier combos use heavier than average discs in the standard metagame. Banning them would open up the use of many more discs that can be used)
Exceptions: 11

All frames Banned Due to almost all core number discs being banned. 

Banned Drivers:
No drivers are banned, because the driver meta seems to be largely even.

Feel free to edit this list as much as you want. this is just an early concept. Tweak it as much as you want.

(Apr. 10, 2018  6:29 PM)juncction Wrote: Creating a limited format now will simply mean it will need to be updated every release or set and it'd be better to have just to wait until everything is released and make one concrete list from the beginning to avoid confusion.

(Apr. 11, 2018  5:04 PM)Frostic Fox Wrote:

(Apr. 10, 2018  6:29 PM)juncction Wrote: Creating a limited format now will simply mean it will need to be updated every release or set and it'd be better to have just to wait until everything is released and make one concrete list from the beginning to avoid confusion.

Better for who?

In my opinion, if there are enough people interested and there are people willing to put in the work to figure it out and actually run tournaments now for it, why not?

I'm not sure how it's confusing? I can at best see it just taking work and perhaps some debate.

If the purpose is to specifically bring use to the single and dual layers, then creating a format targeted around those wouldn't evolve much more than the standard format over time, since most of the targeted parts are now released and much of the new parts would be auto-banned.

Call it the "Pre-God Limited Format" or something similar.

(Apr. 11, 2018  5:04 PM)Frostic Fox Wrote: Better for who?

In my opinion, if there are enough people interested and there are people willing to put in the work to figure it out and actually run tournaments now for it, why not?

I'm not sure how it's confusing? I can at best see it just taking work and perhaps some debate.

If the purpose is to specifically bring use to the single and dual layers, then creating a format targeted around those wouldn't evolve much more than the standard format over time, since most of the targeted parts are now released and much of the new parts would be auto-banned. (All new parts would be if the stance changes to make all later parts not-allowed.)

Call it the "Pre-God Limited Format" or something similar. And then, the idea of a limited format in general can be revisited once the series is done, which I think would not give Pre-God the same attention as the proposed setup does.

That's my thoughts, anyway.

(Apr. 11, 2018  6:23 PM)juncction Wrote:

(Apr. 11, 2018  5:04 PM)Frostic Fox Wrote: Better for who?

In my opinion, if there are enough people interested and there are people willing to put in the work to figure it out and actually run tournaments now for it, why not?

I'm not sure how it's confusing? I can at best see it just taking work and perhaps some debate.

If the purpose is to specifically bring use to the single and dual layers, then creating a format targeted around those wouldn't evolve much more than the standard format over time, since most of the targeted parts are now released and much of the new parts would be auto-banned. (All new parts would be if the stance changes to make all later parts not-allowed.)

Call it the "Pre-God Limited Format" or something similar. And then, the idea of a limited format in general can be revisited once the series is done, which I think would not give Pre-God the same attention as the proposed setup does.

That's my thoughts, anyway.

It'd be better for a lot of people actually. From tournament hosts to even the forum being able to properly mandate the changes globally. It would make the work a lot easier for everyone.

You have to also remember that limited format was created more as way to create a healthy-balanced game from the stamina-heavy-standard MFB game. The limited format revolved around giving attack types proper representation (as most healthy Beyblade environments revolve around strong attack types and type representation in general), with the added bonus of being able to use some of the older parts. The thing is that, there will never be proper representation of every single part in the game, it's just not possible. And enforcing a severe ban list that makes it so part x y and z are viable now doesn't necessarily make it a good game does it? If you take the game back to single/dual layers I would venture to say that attack types were even weaker than they are now, and especially weaker if you ban the the strong attack types like L2. Do we need a Burst Standard 2.0 just so we can use parts we can't use?   Limited format has a pretty strict ban list, yet there are still a ton of parts that have zero use such as: almost every other 4D wheel, tons of synchrom wheels, and the weakest parts like Dark Wheel -- but the reason is, is because LTD wasn't designed to only represent parts.

The Limited Format was needed in MFB because the new format offered a completely new way to play. People were excited about it and it took off and the ban list changed as tournaments went. There wasn't too much discussion needed prior to it's inception, since the tournament results dictated the list. Here, we are simply theorizing about power levels of parts and discussing banning of parts in a very narrow scope. There were good reasons for why LTD happened, because it was clear how much needed to be cut off the top in order to make a solid fun playing field. There isn't a clear way to figure out where the actual cut of Burst is, since we haven't reached the top yet. Does theorizing about this new format at this point make sense when Cho-Z just released and there's extremely volatility and new parts being released? What if Burst released yet another season like MFB did from 4D-to-ZRG that would make even Cho-Z obsolete? ZRG completely changed the game and made it what it was today and opened the door for LTD. 

I know you want to introduce a "Pre-God Limited Format" or something similar now, but wouldn't it make more sense to wait another year~ so that we can make something actually meaningful without having to tell everyone again that there's now a new ruleset to follow since it would be a more well assessed list? Rules might be fun for some, but for others, they just wanna play with what they have, which was also another reason why LTD became realized. By the time LTD came out, there was a wide distribution of parts and lots of people just happened to have those parts and could actually compete on a level ground.

We have to remember that while it's novel to think we can make a list now, it's really not reasonable to start thinking about it now. Not until everything is released.

(Jun. 17, 2018  2:01 PM)@ya.dama Wrote: maybe add some god layers/drivers that are quite bad in the meta into the limited format? (e.g. Nothing / God Valkyrie)