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+---- Thread: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame (/Thread-Stamina-layers-comparison-in-the-current-metagame)
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Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - lovesick - Jul. 12, 2017
If one looks at the current competitive list, ze would find a variety of layers available to choose for stamina. While an option of choice is definitely more convenient to bladers with less access to a large array of beyblades and parts, a large variety of choices without any clear distinction between themselves makes it hard-tasking for those who have many of those choices available to make the best choice.
Current issue
In the list, one can identify 5 layers that can be used for right spin stamina, which are Odin, Wyvern, Acid Anubis, Neptune, and Blaze Ragnaruk. With justification from a number of bladers, one can expect Alter Chronos and Guardian Kerbeus to potentially be on the list as well.
(Cut to exclusively include only the stamina portion)
(Jun. 08, 2017 1:18 PM)SUGOI-KONICHEWA Wrote: @[BurstMaster] Here's the list
Stamina:
Odin/Neptune/Acid Anubis/Wyvern/Blaze Ragnaruk Heavy/Gravity/Spread/Knuckle/Yell Defense/Revolve
Lets compare it to the MFB list.
Quote:STAMINA
Duo
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD/TB)
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SR200 TB
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) B:D
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 160 PD
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SA165[Normal] EWD
- MF(-M/-H) Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 230 MB
Genbull
- Genbull Genbull (SR200/TH170) TB
We can see that the MFB list offers only two metal wheels for selection. Before that, Phantom was on the list. However, it was eliminated due to its inadequate defensive properties. This is akin to the situation in Burst, where Chaos was not included in the proposed list due to it having rather low burst defense.
The scenario in MFB was that with so little choices available, and both of them top tier defense wheels, there was not much questioning needed to distinct the both. Even if it were needed, the discussion threads and the abundance of readily available testing of the combos proved the differences between the two wheels quite clearly. Duo has more LAD due to its round shape, making it better against Dragooon and Genbull is heavier, making it harder to KO by semi aggressive combos like Wyvang Defense, etc.
However, in Burst, things get pretty complicated. You will realize that most of the testing is not immediately accessible on the forums, and most of the justification comes from tournament wins. And even if there is testing, we do not see testing against the same combos- we see blaze Ragnaruk put against Odin, and testing of alter Chronos being against Neptune. The lack of a standard for quantification of the layer's abilities makes it hard for everyone to fully understand how good a stamina layer really is. This problem is different from attack and defense; due to skill and preference being vital towards the effectiveness of the attack type used, it is subjective and qualitative. Therefore, quantitative measurement doesn't work for attack. But for stamina, due to the lack of skill involved, not much of the whole system is subjective. Being such an objective system, why aren't we trying to understand it to the most?
The lack of testing here is something I want to resolve. In this thread, I propose to all of its readers (provided that they have multiple stamina layers on the current tier list) to test their stamina layers against a set stamina combo to quantify the abilities of them.
Characteristics and purposes of stamina layers
Stamina layers, albeit with all their differences, have similarities. They are rather round to provide minimal leverage for other layers, so that less force can be exerted on them and prevent deceleration of rotational velocity. They also have an outward distribution of weight so to decrease its deceleration of rotational velocity. In today's burst metagame, they also have to be not easily burst, i.e. having tall teeth to prevent bursting and round shapes to disperse force.Conventional Stamina: Standard stamina types which purely aim to outspin other beyblades..They use disks with outward weight distributions and tips which have low friction with the stadium floor, while providing a decent amount of balance.
A few setups of conventional stamina are : S/K/G Revolve/Yielding/Gyro/Defense
Destabilizers: these are special defense stamina hybrids whose main goal is to destabilize the opponent to outspin it. They have tips which have high balance properties, and have heavy, centrally weight distributed disks which provide a low center of gravity.Some destabilizer setups are: Heavy/gravity/2/4/6/8 G( i am a little doubtful about the god layer system disk but tthey are heavy and compact so i think they can provide destabilizers the rpm they need to destabilize the opponent so i mentioned them but testing is always welcome) D/O/At.
Defense/Stamina hybrids: these beyblades are balance types.they possess qualities of a defense type and a stamina type. These are mostly stamina oriented layers paired with defense oriented disks (in other word a disk which is more suited to defense), in addition to a stamina driver or a defensive driver like N/W H R/O. This can also be achieved by combining a stamina oriented layer, a stamina oriented disk with a defensive driver like N/W S O, or even a defensive layer, a defense oriented disk or stamina oriented disk and a stamina oriented driver. Put in practice, a sample of this would be K2 heavy/spread revolve. Common setups for such combos are: G/H/A/D/Y( i am not mentioning god system disks here since they need testing) revolve /defense/orbit/yeilding.
Note: alot of parts in burst are good for both defense and stamina such as neptune/wyvern/odin so i am still not sure if something like neptune heavy orbit should be considred a stamina type or a defense/stamina hybrid.
Spin equalizing stamina: Stamina types which generally aim to outspin beyblades spinning in the opposite direction. Due to the constant spin equalization (or energy transfer) on contact between beyblades, such types generally attempt to retain rotational velocity when it is low. As such, these beyblades utilize tips with high precession and disks with high LAD properties in order to prevent the layers from scraping on the floor and a loss of rotational velocity. Examples of such setups are 2C/4G/Y/P/S At/R.
Stallers: Aggressive stamina types which attempt to avoid contact for the most of the battle until the ending stages, in which they destabilize the weakened stationary moving beyblades to gain an outspin. Such beyblades are made up of wheels and disks with high weight distribution, while also having flat tips to move around the stadium to avoid contact. For example, S/Y/K A/Z/a are found on typical tornado stallers.
Testing directions
In this thread, the best layer (or the minimal amount of viable layers) of each of the four purposes above (unless otherwise) will be tested for. Simply choose one of the purposes, select a setup for that combo, make an opponent which is not too strong, and test all six (or as many of the six) layers for competitive stamina against that particular combo. Do no hesitate to use banned layers such as Deathscyther and Dark Deathscyther for the opponent- the aim is to test which layer does best, not whether if it can beat the opponent. Bear in mind that the layers setup has to be better than the opponent- by increasing the win rates of the layers setup, we can better identify the differences between the abilities of the layers.
Example: for pure conventional stamina, an opponent such as Dark Deathscyther Armed Survive can be used. Armed and Survive do not provide the best stamina qualities, but they help to decrease the rate of bursting. This shifts the focus of the stamina layer testing to the outspinning aspect from simply winning against the combo, and better quantifying the abilities of the stamina layer. The end result is a combo with decent stamina qualities, something the best stamina layer on the specific setup can outspin/beat reliably while the weaker layers on the list will have some trouble consistently outspinning.Don't hesitate to test- this thread is aimed to gather as much testing as we can so that we can gain a better understanding of how the stamina layers stack up to a specific purpose!
(I will be posting tests I have done today shortly. Feel free to discuss on this topic.)
Conventional stamina
Spoiler (Click to View)
-
Destabilizers
Spoiler (Click to View)
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Defense-Stamina hybrids
Again, do feel free to test! Stamina testing may be tedious, but 20 rounds are definitely recommended. (unless the best layers can be distinctly identified, but even then just do 20 rounds if you can.) Remember to use standard procedure!
Thanks guys!
Credits to @Rebel Blader for providing a clear characterization of the purposes of stamina types.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - Rebel Blader - Jul. 12, 2017
why isnt guardian kerbeus on the list?
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - lovesick - Jul. 12, 2017
(Jul. 12, 2017 4:08 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote: why isnt guardian kerbeus on the list?I don't think a testing thread has even been created for that, so we'll wait for a while until it starts popping up at tournaments and more results show it is worthy. Unless someone comes up and tests all out on gK, I guess this list will have to do for now.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - Rebel Blader - Jul. 12, 2017
(Jul. 12, 2017 4:31 PM)lovesick Wrote:(Jul. 12, 2017 4:08 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote: why isnt guardian kerbeus on the list?I don't think a testing thread has even been created for that, so we'll wait for a while until it starts popping up at tournaments and more results show it is worthy. Unless someone comes up and tests all out on gK, I guess this list will have to do for now.
there is a testing thread for gK u should check.Also gK is also listed in tournament winning combos.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - lovesick - Jul. 12, 2017
(Jul. 12, 2017 4:59 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote:(Jul. 12, 2017 4:31 PM)lovesick Wrote: I don't think a testing thread has even been created for that, so we'll wait for a while until it starts popping up at tournaments and more results show it is worthy. Unless someone comes up and tests all out on gK, I guess this list will have to do for now.
there is a testing thread for gK u should check.Also gK is also listed in tournament winning combos.
Sorry man, I must have missed that thread. Will add to OP.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - Rebel Blader - Jul. 12, 2017
(Jul. 12, 2017 5:06 PM)lovesick Wrote:(Jul. 12, 2017 4:59 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote: there is a testing thread for gK u should check.Also gK is also listed in tournament winning combos.
Sorry man, I must have missed that thread. Will add to OP.
its ok also i forgot to mention theres also a testing thread for aC.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - lovesick - Jul. 12, 2017
(Jul. 12, 2017 5:20 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote:(Jul. 12, 2017 5:06 PM)lovesick Wrote: Sorry man, I must have missed that thread. Will add to OP.
its ok also i forgot to mention theres also a testing thread for aC.
(Jul. 12, 2017 5:20 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote:Yup I've read it but there's not much same spin testing done in that thread. There was only testing against Neptune, and nothing else.(Jul. 12, 2017 5:06 PM)lovesick Wrote: Sorry man, I must have missed that thread. Will add to OP.
its ok also i forgot to mention theres also a testing thread for aC.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - Rebel Blader - Jul. 12, 2017
i was thinking that there should also be category for the defense of these layers. i mean which stamina layer has best defense.also can u make a similar thread for hasbro stamina layers.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - lovesick - Jul. 12, 2017
For Defense, I believe while that can be explored, it's really hard to concretely quantify or even rank the defense of KO defense layers, due to the level of skill involved. I haven't been able to think of a way to really quantify KO defense on an objective basis yet, so let's wait and see.
If you're mentioning BURST defense, I believe it deons't really require that much skill to use a burst attacker. Well, I'll add it into the OP.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - fire mist - Jul. 12, 2017
(Jul. 12, 2017 5:40 PM)lovesick Wrote: For Defense, I believe while that can be explored, it's really hard to quantify the defense of KO defense layers, due to the level of skill involved. I haven't been able to think of a way to really quantify KO defense on an objective basis yet, so let's wait and see.mew
If you're mentioning BURST defense, I believe it deons't really require that much skill to use a burst attacker. Well, I'll add it into the OP.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - FIREFIRE CPB - Jul. 12, 2017
(Jul. 12, 2017 5:20 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote:(Jul. 12, 2017 5:06 PM)lovesick Wrote: Sorry man, I must have missed that thread. Will add to OP.
its ok also i forgot to mention theres also a testing thread for aC.
BTW even if there are test, we shouldn't take it as a fact so fast. There are chances a test maybe madeup or due to testing/equipment error. First few people needs to confirm about there experience of specific part and it has to show consistant sucess at tournament to be considered top-tier. But as Kei confimed gK being good I think it would be ok
.Here's my version of list
Conventional Stamina
D.H/S/K/G/D/8/4/2/6G.R/D/O/Y (reason I choosed D over D2 was, D2 is really kind of balance then stamina as it has way too much defence and it doesn't have raw stamina to OS without contact as it OS beys via destabilizing em similer to how Flame SF did. D has 2nd highest stamina and its true its easier to burst/KO then D2 and Odin but it does have very strong teeth and when weak launched it can take hits much better and at times use its recoil against opposite attacker with more resistance offered by weak launch) (NOTE:- Its been a while since I used D)
C.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/Y/C/D (I know its very easy to burst but it still has best stamina of any burst)
gK.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R (I'm not sure how other top drivers would go but I assume Yeilding/Claw/Gyro may work well improving burst defence)
N.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R
O.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/D/Y
W.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/O
A2H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/O
aC.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.? (Eh not really have any idea on this but @[Kei] said it has same stamina as Neptune)
Spin-Equalizer Stamina
dF.G/K/S/Y/P8/4/6/2G
Stamina/Defence Hybrid
D2.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/O/D/Y
W.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/O
O.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.D/Y/O
Stallers
D.S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.Z/a/A
C.S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.Z/a/A
O.S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.Z/a/A
Burst Defence
G2.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.Y/G/C
K2.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6GY/C/G
b.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6.Y/C/G
Nothing could possibly a Burst Defence Driver?
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - Rebel Blader - Jul. 13, 2017
(Jul. 12, 2017 11:59 PM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote:(Jul. 12, 2017 5:20 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote: its ok also i forgot to mention theres also a testing thread for aC.
BTW even if there are test, we shouldn't take it as a fact so fast. There are chances a test maybe madeup or due to testing/equipment error. First few people needs to confirm about there experience of specific part and it has to show consistant sucess at tournament to be considered top-tier. But as Kei confimed gK being good I think it would be ok :).
Here's my version of list
Conventional Stamina
D.H/S/K/G/D/8/4/2/6G.R/D/O/Y (reason I choosed D over D2 was, D2 is really kind of balance then stamina as it has way too much defence and it doesn't have raw stamina to OS without contact as it OS beys via destabilizing em similer to how Flame SF did. D has 2nd highest stamina and its true its easier to burst/KO then D2 and Odin but it does have very strong teeth and when weak launched it can take hits much better and at times use its recoil against opposite attacker with more resistance offered by weak launch) (NOTE:- Its been a while since I used D)
C.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/Y/C/D (I know its very easy to burst but it still has best stamina of any burst)
gK.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R (I'm not sure how other top drivers would go but I assume Yeilding/Claw/Gyro may work well improving burst defence)
N.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R
O.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/D/Y
W.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/O
A2H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/O
aC.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.? (Eh not really have any idea on this but @[Kei] said it has same stamina as Neptune)
Spin-Equalizer Stamina
dF.G/K/S/Y/P8/4/6/2G
Stamina/Defence Hybrid
D2.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/O/D/Y
W.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/O
O.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.D/Y/O
Stallers
D.S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.Z/a/A
C.S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.Z/a/A
O.S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.Z/a/A
Burst Defence
G2.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.Y/G/C
K2.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6GY/C/G
b.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6.Y/C/G
Nothing could possibly a Burst Defence Driver?
i thought D had better stamina than D2. in 1234beyblades video D would always outspin D2. also theres no atomic in the stamina defense hybrids and also no bR,aC and gK in stamina defense hybrids.they are good on atomic(atleast gK and bR are good on atomic). also i believe that chaos might only be good with yeilding and revolve(idk about gyro) and it would need burst resistant disks,it might also be good for stalling. also i think unicorn(TT) and bR might also be good for staller combinations.also isnt cycle pretty outclassed?and also wouldnt D on orbit be considered a stamina defense hybrid.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - FIREFIRE CPB - Jul. 13, 2017
(Jul. 13, 2017 6:08 AM)Rebel Blader Wrote:(Jul. 12, 2017 11:59 PM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote: BTW even if there are test, we shouldn't take it as a fact so fast. There are chances a test maybe madeup or due to testing/equipment error. First few people needs to confirm about there experience of specific part and it has to show consistant sucess at tournament to be considered top-tier. But as Kei confimed gK being good I think it would be ok
Here's my version of list
Conventional Stamina
D.H/S/K/G/D/8/4/2/6G.R/D/O/Y (reason I choosed D over D2 was, D2 is really kind of balance then stamina as it has way too much defence and it doesn't have raw stamina to OS without contact as it OS beys via destabilizing em similer to how Flame SF did. D has 2nd highest stamina and its true its easier to burst/KO then D2 and Odin but it does have very strong teeth and when weak launched it can take hits much better and at times use its recoil against opposite attacker with more resistance offered by weak launch) (NOTE:- Its been a while since I used D)
C.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/Y/C/D (I know its very easy to burst but it still has best stamina of any burst)
gK.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R (I'm not sure how other top drivers would go but I assume Yeilding/Claw/Gyro may work well improving burst defence)
N.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R
O.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/D/Y
W.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/O
A2H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/O
aC.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.? (Eh not really have any idea on this but @[Kei] said it has same stamina as Neptune)
Spin-Equalizer Stamina
dF.G/K/S/Y/P8/4/6/2G
Stamina/Defence Hybrid
D2.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/O/D/Y
W.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.R/O
O.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.D/Y/O
Stallers
D.S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.Z/a/A
C.S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.Z/a/A
O.S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.Z/a/A
Burst Defence
G2.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6G.Y/G/C
K2.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6GY/C/G
b.H/S/K/G/A/R/D/8/4/2/6.Y/C/G
Nothing could possibly a Burst Defence Driver?
i thought D had better stamina than D2. in 1234beyblades video D would always outspin D2. also theres no atomic in the stamina defense hybrids and also no bR,aC and gK in stamina defense hybrids.they are good on atomic(atleast gK and bR are good on atomic). also i believe that chaos might only be good with yeilding and revolve(idk about gyro) and it would need burst resistant disks,it might also be good for stalling. also i think unicorn(TT) and bR might also be good for staller combinations.also isnt cycle pretty outclassed?and also wouldnt D on orbit be considered a stamina defense hybrid.
I mean D being 2nd best after chaos. But yest thats true but D2 can OS D too (especially D_R gets destabilise by D2_O). Atomic doesn't work on everything and gK has very weak teeth so I would really keep it away from anything other then stamina (as it can defend at weak launch but its not primary ability). I would add bR but tbh it feel like more of a defence type then balance. aC is bit new and really not much tested so maybe we should wait or we add section with potential stamina (need more test)? I said Chaos in staller
Unicorn, i never heard of that being a staller? Its claw not cycle lol but even though I think it too work on chaos? Not sure tbh as my Cycle is lost.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - Rebel Blader - Jul. 13, 2017
(Jul. 13, 2017 7:07 AM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote:(Jul. 13, 2017 6:08 AM)Rebel Blader Wrote: i thought D had better stamina than D2. in 1234beyblades video D would always outspin D2. also theres no atomic in the stamina defense hybrids and also no bR,aC and gK in stamina defense hybrids.they are good on atomic(atleast gK and bR are good on atomic). also i believe that chaos might only be good with yeilding and revolve(idk about gyro) and it would need burst resistant disks,it might also be good for stalling. also i think unicorn(TT) and bR might also be good for staller combinations.also isnt cycle pretty outclassed?and also wouldnt D on orbit be considered a stamina defense hybrid.
I mean D being 2nd best after chaos. But yest thats true but D2 can OS D too (especially D_R gets destabilise by D2_O). Atomic doesn't work on everything and gK has very weak teeth so I would really keep it away from anything other then stamina (as it can defend at weak launch but its not primary ability). I would add bR but tbh it feel like more of a defence type then balance. aC is bit new and really not much tested so maybe we should wait or we add section with potential stamina (need more test)? I said Chaos in staller :) Unicorn, i never heard of that being a staller? Its claw not cycle lol but even though I think it too work on chaos? Not sure tbh as my Cycle is lost.
oh i got confused between Cy and C sorry.yea actually i accidentally said the chaos stalling part but i havent seen any tests of chaos as a staller but i think it will be good.u r right bR has good defence but i think it is kind of a balance type more than defense i mean it can burst things like A2 and destabilize revolve based combos on atomic(also it hasnt been tested on semi aggressive and aggressive drivers) but i might be wrong but to me it seems like a balance type more than just pure defense and for gK on atomic in the testing it did well on atomic against stamina types on revolve but it hasnt been tested aginst attack on atomic. i think gK is good on atomic it weak teeth are compensated by its shape and those black parts.i think bR,gK and aC(not sure about aC) are good with atomic and tbh i havent seen any tests of other layers on atomic. unicorn(tt) might be good for stalling since it has good amount of OWD but it suffers from the same problem as chaos(bad burst defense) thats why it isnt popular but maybe it might shine as a staller.and i think claw is also pretty outclassed its stamina is less than revolve and yeilding and i think it might also get destabilized easily by drivers like atomic and orbit.and also has anyone tried neptune as a staller?
(Jul. 12, 2017 5:40 PM)lovesick Wrote:
For Defense, I believe while that can be explored, it's really hard to concretely quantify or even rank the defense of KO defense layers, due to the level of skill involved. I haven't been able to think of a way to really quantify KO defense on an objective basis yet, so let's wait and see.
If you're mentioning BURST defense, I believe it deons't really require that much skill to use a burst attacker. Well, I'll add it into the OP.
i actually meant both ko and burst defense but i can agree that ko defense is based more on the skill of user of the attacker.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - lovesick - Jul. 13, 2017
@FIREFIRE CPB I like the comprehensive tier list you have, but as you can see there are really many options for a combo of a single purpose. We don't really know how effectively one layer fares against another layer in a mirror match or against other opponents. I guess what we can do through the discussion and testing in this thread is to:
1. find the best layers for each combination and eliminate the redundant layers.
2. Rank the combinations according to the layers on the tier list.
3. Add some description, saying why one should choose a layer over the other.
I know this might shorten the tier list by a fair margin, or make it tedious depending on what happens. However, I don't think the competitiveness of the tier list has been explored to the most if we list combos that other combos can perform better than in every way, and say it is still competitive (akin to listing Spriggan along with Valkyrie when Valkyrie just does everything better). Nor is it really that informative if we list many options and not state the differences between the options.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - chips556 - Jul. 13, 2017
@FIREFIRE CPB how well does Claw perform as a burst defense driver ?
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - Rebel Blader - Jul. 13, 2017
(Jul. 13, 2017 9:51 AM)lovesick Wrote: @FIREFIRE CPB I like the comprehensive tier list you have, but as you can see there are really many options for a combo of a single purpose. We don't really know how effectively one layer fares against another layer in a mirror match or against other opponents. I guess what we can do through the discussion and testing in this thread is to:
1. find the best layers for each combination and eliminate the redundant layers.
2. Rank the combinations according to the layers on the tier list.
3. Add some description, saying why one should choose a layer over the other.
I know this might shorten the tier list by a fair margin, or make it tedious depending on what happens. However, I don't think the competitiveness of the tier list has been explored to the most if we list combos that other combos can perform better than in every way, and say it is still competitive (akin to listing Spriggan along with Valkyrie when Valkyrie just does everything better). Nor is it really that informative if we list many options and not state the differences between the options.
i totally get ur point .but to declare that one stamina layer is better than the other it requires testing for example i know neptune has better burst defense than wyvern (thats what i have heard) but i dunno which one has better stamina. to make a such a list we need someone to inform us about the traits of the stamina layers and then we can make combos. i mean something like this for all layers:
Chaos:has best stamina,worst burst defense.
Deathscyther:2nd best stamina(only less than chaos), better burst defense but still can be bursted by attack types.
Odin:has 3rd highest stamina less than the layers above,has good destabilizing properties, has better defense than the layers listed above.
also i think we should seperate destabilizers from stamina and defense hybrids cuz they are quite different eg K2 H R is a defense/stamina hybrid but isnt a destabilizer. also we should only consider those combos stamina types which have disks with outward weight distribution for example neptune spread revolve should be considered stamina while neptune heavy revolve should be considered a stamina/defense hybrid. Neptune spread orbit should be considered as defense stamina hybrid while Neptune heavy orbit should be considered pure defense.i hope u get my point.
Edit:i saw ur testings after i wrote my post since i didnt knew they were there and i think testing against just one opponent is not enouugh to declare that one layer is better than other maybe bR and N got less wins than other layer because they are weak against D2.Also i have seen in testings that bR isnt good with heavy.u should test these layer against some other opponents too so we can compare results i have heard compact layers like odin and wyvern work better with heavy maybe thats why they got better results than N and bR.also i think Heavy+Defense is more of a defensive setup rather than conventional stamina.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - lovesick - Jul. 13, 2017
@ Rebel Blader I agree with you that there should be a list of traits (that's why the list will get longer and tedious lol). That makes everything more comprehensive and understandable.
On the separation thing, I probably didn't clarify properly in the OP. (Do raise up stuff that you think is wrong, it will be beneficial to the thread) I think what I wanted to convey was that some right spin equalizers , i.e. bR. 4G. At had destabilizing properties when facing revolve based right spin stamina (tests will be posted later). Didn't know how to say that properly, and since they mostly had atomic as the driver I coined them defense stamina hybrids. Now you point it out, it dies seem confusing. I'll rewrite that section.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - Rebel Blader - Jul. 13, 2017
(Jul. 13, 2017 3:08 PM)lovesick Wrote: @ Rebel Blader I agree with you that there should be a list of traits (that's why the list will get longer and tedious lol). That makes everything more comprehensive and understandable.
On the separation thing, I probably didn't clarify properly in the OP. (Do raise up stuff that you think is wrong, it will be beneficial to the thread) I think what I wanted to convey was that some right spin equalizers , i.e. bR. 4G. At had destabilizing properties when facing revolve based right spin stamina (tests will be posted later). Didn't know how to say that properly, and since they mostly had atomic as the driver I coined them defense stamina hybrids. Now you point it out, it dies seem confusing. I'll rewrite that section.
i think other than that D2 combo these stamina layers should also be tested against Deathscyther heavy survive and this time with a spread and gravity combo who know the layers which were bad with heavy might give better results with the OWD gravity/spread provides.also remove burst defense those are just defensive type layers with low friction stamina tips i mean they are also defense/stamina hybrids so they do not need to be mentioned separately replace it with a list which compares burst resistence of the current meta stamina layers.linda off topic but iu also wanted to ask should hasbro layers be also included in the thread?
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - lovesick - Jul. 13, 2017
(Jul. 13, 2017 1:25 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote:(Jul. 13, 2017 9:51 AM)lovesick Wrote: @FIREFIRE CPB I like the comprehensive tier list you have, but as you can see there are really many options for a combo of a single purpose. We don't really know how effectively one layer fares against another layer in a mirror match or against other opponents. I guess what we can do through the discussion and testing in this thread is to:
1. find the best layers for each combination and eliminate the redundant layers.
2. Rank the combinations according to the layers on the tier list.
3. Add some description, saying why one should choose a layer over the other.
I know this might shorten the tier list by a fair margin, or make it tedious depending on what happens. However, I don't think the competitiveness of the tier list has been explored to the most if we list combos that other combos can perform better than in every way, and say it is still competitive (akin to listing Spriggan along with Valkyrie when Valkyrie just does everything better). Nor is it really that informative if we list many options and not state the differences between the options.
i totally get ur point .but to declare that one stamina layer is better than the other it requires testing for example i know neptune has better burst defense than wyvern (thats what i have heard) but i dunno which one has better stamina. to make a such a list we need someone to inform us about the traits of the stamina layers and then we can make combos. i mean something like this for all layers:
Chaos:has best stamina,worst burst defense.
Deathscyther:2nd best stamina(only less than chaos), better burst defense but still can be bursted by attack types.
Odin:has 3rd highest stamina less than the layers above,has good destabilizing properties, has better defense than the layers listed above.
also i think we should seperate destabilizers from stamina and defense hybrids cuz they are quite different eg K2 H R is a defense/stamina hybrid but isnt a destabilizer. also we should only consider those combos stamina types which have disks with outward weight distribution for example neptune spread revolve should be considered stamina while neptune heavy revolve should be considered a stamina/defense hybrid. Neptune spread orbit should be considered as defense stamina hybrid while Neptune heavy orbit should be considered pure defense.i hope u get my point.
Edit:i saw ur testings after i wrote my post since i didnt knew they were there and i think testing against just one opponent is not enouugh to declare that one layer is better than other maybe bR and N got less wins than other layer because they are weak against D2.Also i have seen in testings that bR isnt good with heavy.u should test these layer against some other opponents too so we can compare results i have heard compact layers like odin and wyvern work better with heavy maybe thats why they got better results than N and bR.also i think Heavy+Defense is more of a defensive setup rather than conventional stamina.
(Jul. 13, 2017 4:33 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote:For burst defense I guess we can test for how the stamina layers rank in terms of that, not necessarily full on competitiveness as a defense layer.(Jul. 13, 2017 3:08 PM)lovesick Wrote: @ Rebel Blader I agree with you that there should be a list of traits (that's why the list will get longer and tedious lol). That makes everything more comprehensive and understandable.
On the separation thing, I probably didn't clarify properly in the OP. (Do raise up stuff that you think is wrong, it will be beneficial to the thread) I think what I wanted to convey was that some right spin equalizers , i.e. bR. 4G. At had destabilizing properties when facing revolve based right spin stamina (tests will be posted later). Didn't know how to say that properly, and since they mostly had atomic as the driver I coined them defense stamina hybrids. Now you point it out, it dies seem confusing. I'll rewrite that section.
i think other than that D2 combo these stamina layers should also be tested against Deathscyther heavy survive and this time with a spread and gravity combo who know the layers which were bad with heavy might give better results with the OWD gravity/spread provides.also remove burst defense those are just defensive type layers with low friction stamina tips i mean they are also defense/stamina hybrids so they do not need to be mentioned separately replace it with a list which compares burst resistence of the current meta stamina layers.linda off topic but iu also wanted to ask should hasbro layers be also included in the thread?
On Deathscyther heavy survive, I believe it is going to be too op for layers like neptune and blaze Ragnaruk. Also, being too easily bursted means were going to have to take burst attack of the layers into account, making the whole testing unfocused. I think Odin would be a better choice for that. Disk wise, use one with lesser stamina, or Odin might win over the weaker combos too much to differentiate anything.
Hasbro layers can't share drivers with Takara, so they do not have enough controlled commonalities to make good tests (only the disk, driver performances vary). I'd say that testing for the ranking of the Hasbro layers should be done separately, before putting Hasbro combos against Takara combos to make a comparison.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - Rebel Blader - Jul. 13, 2017
(Jul. 13, 2017 4:46 PM)lovesick Wrote:alrighT Then seperaTe Thread for hasbro will be beTTer.if deaThscyher and odin are Too op Then whaT oTher combos should we use To TesT These sTamina layers.sorry To wriTe like his The T on my keyboard isnT working.(Jul. 13, 2017 1:25 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote: i totally get ur point .but to declare that one stamina layer is better than the other it requires testing for example i know neptune has better burst defense than wyvern (thats what i have heard) but i dunno which one has better stamina. to make a such a list we need someone to inform us about the traits of the stamina layers and then we can make combos. i mean something like this for all layers:
Chaos:has best stamina,worst burst defense.
Deathscyther:2nd best stamina(only less than chaos), better burst defense but still can be bursted by attack types.
Odin:has 3rd highest stamina less than the layers above,has good destabilizing properties, has better defense than the layers listed above.
also i think we should seperate destabilizers from stamina and defense hybrids cuz they are quite different eg K2 H R is a defense/stamina hybrid but isnt a destabilizer. also we should only consider those combos stamina types which have disks with outward weight distribution for example neptune spread revolve should be considered stamina while neptune heavy revolve should be considered a stamina/defense hybrid. Neptune spread orbit should be considered as defense stamina hybrid while Neptune heavy orbit should be considered pure defense.i hope u get my point.
Edit:i saw ur testings after i wrote my post since i didnt knew they were there and i think testing against just one opponent is not enouugh to declare that one layer is better than other maybe bR and N got less wins than other layer because they are weak against D2.Also i have seen in testings that bR isnt good with heavy.u should test these layer against some other opponents too so we can compare results i have heard compact layers like odin and wyvern work better with heavy maybe thats why they got better results than N and bR.also i think Heavy+Defense is more of a defensive setup rather than conventional stamina.
(Jul. 13, 2017 4:33 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote: i think other than that D2 combo these stamina layers should also be tested against Deathscyther heavy survive and this time with a spread and gravity combo who know the layers which were bad with heavy might give better results with the OWD gravity/spread provides.also remove burst defense those are just defensive type layers with low friction stamina tips i mean they are also defense/stamina hybrids so they do not need to be mentioned separately replace it with a list which compares burst resistence of the current meta stamina layers.linda off topic but iu also wanted to ask should hasbro layers be also included in the thread?For burst defense I guess we can test for how the stamina layers rank in terms of that, not necessarily full on competitiveness as a defense layer.
On Deathscyther heavy survive, I believe it is going to be too op for layers like neptune and blaze Ragnaruk. Also, being too easily bursted means were going to have to take burst attack of the layers into account, making the whole testing unfocused. I think Odin would be a better choice for that. Disk wise, use one with lesser stamina, or Odin might win over the weaker combos too much to differentiate anything.
Hasbro layers can't share drivers with Takara, so they do not have enough controlled commonalities to make good tests (only the disk, driver performances vary). I'd say that testing for the ranking of the Hasbro layers should be done separately, before putting Hasbro combos against Takara combos to make a comparison.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - lovesick - Jul. 13, 2017
@Rebel Blader Odin is better than Deathscyther for these tests as it's harder to burst, has less stamina, and doesn't suffer from teeth wearing problems. I think we can put armed, or disks that nerf the combo so that it isn't such a beast.
Well that's my 2c. The setup D2AS was chosen based on nerfing a good, decently burst resistant wheel to the point where it acts as a moderate stamina type. I don't know if putting other disks like wing and limited might help, but well I'm open to possibilities.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - Rebel Blader - Jul. 13, 2017
(Jul. 13, 2017 5:01 PM)lovesick Wrote: @Rebel Blader Odin is better than Deathscyther for these tests as it's harder to burst, has less stamina, and doesn't suffer from teeth wearing problems. I think we can put armed, or disks that nerf the combo so that it isn't such a beast.
Well that's my 2c. The setup D2AS was chosen based on nerfing a good, decently burst resistant wheel to the point where it acts as a moderate stamina type. I don't know if putting other disks like wing and limited might help, but well I'm open to possibilities.
how abou D A/L/O S.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - lovesick - Jul. 14, 2017
(Jul. 13, 2017 6:12 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote:(Jul. 13, 2017 5:01 PM)lovesick Wrote: @Rebel Blader Odin is better than Deathscyther for these tests as it's harder to burst, has less stamina, and doesn't suffer from teeth wearing problems. I think we can put armed, or disks that nerf the combo so that it isn't such a beast.
Well that's my 2c. The setup D2AS was chosen based on nerfing a good, decently burst resistant wheel to the point where it acts as a moderate stamina type. I don't know if putting other disks like wing and limited might help, but well I'm open to possibilities.
how abou D A/L/O S.
I guess that works, as long as it doesn't burst too much.
RE: Stamina layers comparison in the current metagame - Rebel Blader - Jul. 14, 2017
(Jul. 14, 2017 12:42 AM)lovesick Wrote:(Jul. 13, 2017 6:12 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote: how abou D A/L/O S.
I guess that works, as long as it doesn't burst too much.
forget about D i think K and K2 would be better since they dont have teeth wear issue and arent that easy to burst.how about K/K2 A/D/S S aginst our stamina layers on a G/S revolve setup.
also i wanted to share my opinion on types of stamina types so thers less confusion
Conventional Stamina: the goal of these beyblades is to outspin other beyblade they are the standard stamina types.they use disks with OWD and tips which have low friction.
few setups of conventional stamina are : S/K/G 8/8G(i am doubtful about 8 and 8 G but it looks like they will be good for stamina since they are also placed in winning combinations) Revolve/Yeilding/Gyro.
Destabilizers: these are special defense stamina hybrids whose main goal is to destabilize the opponent to outspin it.Some destabilizer setups are: Heavy/gravity/2/4/6/8 G( i am a little doubtful about the god layer system disk but tthey are heavy and compact so i think they can provide destabilizers the rpm they need to destabilize the opponent so i mentioned them but testing is always welcome) D/O/At.
Defense/Stamina hybrids: these beyblades are balance types.they possess qualites of a defense type and a stamina type.these are mostly a stamina oriented layer paired with a defense oriented (in other word a disk which is more suited to defense) with a stamina driver or a defensive driver like N/W H R/O or a stamina oriented layer with a stamina oriented disk with a defensive driver like N/W S O or a defensive layer paired with either a defense oriented disk or stamina oriented disk paired with a stamina oriented driver like K2 heavy/spread revolve. common setup for these are: G/H/A/D/Y( i am not mentioning god system disks here since they need testing) revolve /defense/orbit/yeilding.
Note: alot of parts in burst are good for both defense and stamina such as neptune/wyvern/odin so i am still not sure if something like neptune heavy orbit should be considred a stamina type or a defense/stamina hybrid.
Spin equalizing stamina: these beyblades spin left so they can spin equalize with other stamina types they rely on the precision provided by the driver and LAD provided by the disk and driver.these types of beyblades can only use two layer dF and L2 as they are the only left spining layers in burst.common setups are: Y/P/S 2/4/6/8G At/R/H.
Anti spin stealers:these types of beyblade are made to counter spin equalizing stamina.they either use a smooth stamina layer to outspin spin equalizing stamina or a aggressive layer in the same spin direction to burst spin equalizing stamina.they usually have equal or more LAD than spin equalizing stamina. common setups are the same as spin equalizing stamina.
Stallers: these beyblades consist of a stamina layer with OWD and good solo spin time, a disk with OWD and an aggressive driver with good stamina such as accel.common setups are S/K/G zephyr/accel/blow(i dunno blow is good anymore i heard it has balance problems.
Note:something like valkyrie/ minoborus heavy/ spread zephyr should not be considered staller beacause stallers only use stamina oriented layer and disks with OWD.V/M H/S Z/A are actually attack stamina hybrids.
hope thisclears up confusion now we need someone to test the layers to know which layers are good for what categories and also to determine which layers are best in what categories and arrange them according to their potential. i did not mentioned the layers in each category myself because there are many layers which need testing.