In case you missed it, check out my
LIVE ACTION REBOOT Toronto Tournament Report, where Deathscyther and Dark Deathscyther were both prominently used.
For reference, these were the winning combinations:
(Apr. 23, 2017 2:08 AM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]Winning Combinations
1st: Kei
Dark Deathscyther Gravity Defense
Deathscyther Heavy Revolve
Deathscyther Heavy Defense
2nd: Mitsu
Dark Deathscyther Gravity Defense
Deathscyther Gravity Revolve
Deathscyther 2 Cross Revolve
Dark Deathscyther 4 Glaive Defense
God Valkyrie Heavy Reboot (Deck Format Finals Only)
God Valkyrie 4 Vortex Reboot (Deck Format Finals Only)
3rd: JesseObre
Deathscyther Heavy Defense
Dark Deathscyther Gravity Defense
Dark Deathscyther Gravity Orbit
I was undefeated.
(Apr. 15, 2017 5:57 PM)Bastillon Wrote: [ -> ]Ever watched the "Dual layer, dual fun" tournament video? Now, how many dual layers do you spot in said video? I got tired of hitting the replay button since I don't see any of them, so I'll just go out on a limb here and say absolutely none. Yeah, the situation is this bad. Without D2, how many dual layers would be in use? L2, the occasional K2, V2, Z2, X2, B2, the very occasional A2, O2... That makes what, eight? But let's be real here, you'd most likely only use two of the above. Without D2, it's pretty much a single layer meta again. Seeing how TT's not producing them anymore, I seriously doubt how newbie-friendly this community really is. Are we seriously going to deny the very last of viable choices available? Or is it just okay for them to wait for new releases while everyone hates waiting for new molds? Is that fair in any way possible?
Important to note that the "Dual Layers, Dual Fun!" tournament happened less than two weeks after the Dual Layers were released. I was the only person who had them, and that was only because I had literally just got back from my trip to Japan. I sold a bunch to everyone, but obviously with no previous experience testing them, not many people wanted to risk using them in a tournament setting (although LMAO did at least once, as you see in the video). So, I don't think using that video as an example is valid.
With D2 banned, in addition to some God Layers and Hasbro parts, realistically I can see the following Dual Layers being more competitive: L2, V2, Z2, G2, maybe K2 if what you say about is countering L2 is true. But with all of the others, I can't even comment on them because they were so bad against or in comparison to D2 that they became immediately irrelevant in the metagame upon release. With D2 banned, who knows, maybe something like J2 or Q2 could be useful. Nobody knows what the full extent of a D2 ban would be in terms of the effect it would have on the metagame; we just know that without question, things would be opened up to some degree.
In terms of Stamina, it will be a "single layer meta" again, I agree. However, the Layers which will dominate don't wear as quickly as Deathscyther and defensive options like G2 will become more viable if there is an increased usage of Attack. And TT actually recently re-released the Odin Booster (and RBV1, I think?) too, which is significant. No matter what, there will always be a barrier because the metagame is largely based upon importing Japanese products, but what we can do is try to reduce that barrier by banning things like Deathscyther which are actually out of production
and wear more quickly than other single Layers.
That being said, I'm pretty much repeating what Cake said here:
(Apr. 15, 2017 10:15 PM)Cake Wrote: [ -> ]D2's existence is more hostile to new players than its removal would be. D2's primary counters are also Single Layers, and its presence may be stifling the use of other potentially competitive Dual Layers. Removing D2 means that new players lose one option that's more easily accessible, but it also makes repeated purchases of Deathscyther less necessary (or completely unnecessary if it's also banned). Wyvern and Odin do not suffer much from any wearing issues, so there's no need to buy many duplicates, unlike Deathscyther which does wear out rapidly. Furthermore, without D2 or Deathscyther in play, I expect we would see more attempts to use Xtreme or Variable-based attack, especially those using V2 or Valtryek V2, since D2 is no longer a concern and stationary Attack is no longer necessary to fight mint Deathscyther. Removing D2 and possibly Deathscyther opens up the game for more Dual Layers and Hasbro parts to see use, particularly those that are currently overshadowed by Deathscyther's high Stamina and D2's unique Stamina/Defense mix.
(Apr. 17, 2017 7:18 PM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote: [ -> ]No offence but if something is very powerful and must for competetive and is getting harder and harder to obtain, doesn't mean we should ban it. White Gabriel G's Attack Ring, Twin Horn G (Hasbro) is very hard to get too + BEYXTREMELY powerful (quite a bit like D2 of PLA) and it's still isn't banned yet.
The thing here is ... we're talking about an active series with rankings that affects a much larger amount of people than the Plastics Format. There is more riding on our ability to properly balance the Burst Format metagame than there is any potential issues in the Plastics metagame, which as much as I hate to say it, is basically a legacy format at this point due to the level of activity and competition between players at the events which are played.
(Apr. 17, 2017 8:42 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: [ -> ]Dark Deathscyther will eventually have the exact same situation as above throughout the God Layer System's lifetime. Between the two above; I feel like the second point is honestly a more prominent reason to ban than the first point is against the ban; anyone joining the metagame now has to deal with these parts that simply aren't accessible to them, that even Takara-Tomy themselves accept are simply too good/consistent.
Yes, both Deathscyther and Dark Deathscyther have counters. Everything has a counter, that's just how it is. But what about the consistency of the counters? It's all well and good using D/D2 as counters for everything else, but when the main things that can counter these back are inconsistent or situational combinations, there's clearly an issue there.
Yeah, this is the big thing for me: the inconsistency and situational nature of D2 counters, and the availability and quick-wearing nature of Deathscyther. Like I mentioned above, we already present a large enough barrier to the community by basically requiring importing Japanese releases to be successful, so if we can lower that barrier a little bit by banning a part (Deathscyther) which is the best Stamina Layer in the game (this is a bigger issue than if it were the post powerful Attack or Defense type in the game because Stamina is the easiest type to use)
and wears quickly, it's a win for everybody involved:
1. New players have a better opportunity to compete with anybody in a Stamina match-up (saying they can just use Attack to counter Deathscyther isn't really valid; I'd rather craft a metagame where all players have a relatively equal opportunity to compete at a high level in any way which they desire. I don't want them to feel forced into using a particular type to overcome an issue like the one which exists with Deathscyther).
2. Experienced players don't have to buy multiple copies of an increasingly rare out-of-production part just to maintain their increasingly meaningless position as top players because of their Deathscyther usage.
In the hands of a good player, a mint Deathscyther is an incredibly formidable opponent. It can outspin anything and depending on the match-up and launching skill of the users involved, can defeat many Attack combinations without much trouble too. Even though there is absolutely counters (which are more or less effective not only on the players involved, but also depending on the condition of the Deathscyther), I don't think it's quite as bad defensively as some of you have made it out to be.
In fact, I took the time to review my battle data and since around December 2015 when I started recording every single battle I play in Toronto at our official WBO events, I discovered that in my battles where Deathscyther was used,
Deathscyther won 67% of the time (31/46 times) against offensive opponents (whether I was using Deathscyther or my opponent was) in regular matches (this does not include rounds played in Deck Format Finals). This is massively telling in my opinion. Worth noting that most of these match-ups were against highly competitive Attack types like Valkyrie or Valtryek. I noticed that in a lot of cases when Valkyrie won, it was 3-2 ... so the irrefutable fact of the matter is that Deathscyther is not as weak against all forms of Attack as people might think.
The fact that it even has much of a chance against Attack combos is a problem; in MFB–Limited Format in particular–the chances of you beating an Attack type with a Stamina type are pretty low, all things considered. That's not to say I think banning D2 and Deathscyther will turn Burst Format into an Attack-dominated format like Limited Format all of a sudden, but removing those parts certainly would make Attack more viable because there wouldn't be anything left which has both strong teeth/Defense
and Stamina.
(Apr. 18, 2017 4:27 PM)Bastillon Wrote: [ -> ]Judging by the results from the tournament winning combos thread from March, I'd say yes. Roktavor had made its way up the ladder, and we can see the new god layers appearing as well. Based on this result, I think that D2 will lose its dominant position due to the sudden influx of god layers and Hasbro variants.
We're past the point of waiting and seeing at this point. If we decide to ban Deathscyther, D2, or both, there's nothing saying we can't unban them later. Right now–in this moment–it seems like something has to change. That's all we need to be concerned with.
(Apr. 22, 2017 8:50 AM)Wombat Wrote: [ -> ]However, I disagree with banning Deathscyther because of the reasoning Kei posted when this thread was originally posted (or maybe it was in Thunder Dome's thread): it's a perfectly flawed Layer. While it does have the best Stamina in the game, it is incredibly weak to both forms of Attack, most notably the one that takes "no skill" to use.
I still stand behind that assessment of it being a "perfectly flawed Layer" from an objective standpoint, but the bigger issue for me at this point is availability and it's nature of being relatively quickly wearing in comparison to all other Layers (except Valkyrie). Just doesn't sit well with me knowing that I have an advantage over many players because I hoard mint Deathscythers, which locks them out of the ability to compete in a Stamina match because they don't have an old, out-of-production part or they only have one or two of them which have become worn over time. Doesn't seem fair to me.
(Apr. 22, 2017 8:50 AM)Wombat Wrote: [ -> ]Long Answer: There's no doubt that D2 is a part that is overused in tournaments and that many players struggle to defeat, but I think a lot of the problems the community has been having with D2 are rooted in this weird new way that they're viewing the game - focusing only on the Layer of the Beyblade. (Bear with me here, this is an underlying issue that I find super prevalent, but kinda difficult to explain) This has created a scenario where players relegate each Layer to one specific role as a counter to another Layer, when in reality that's just not how Beyblade works, nor how it's ever worked. Everyone is so focused on finding the Layer that's a counter to D2 that they aren't thinking that there might be other ways to defeat it. I could list all of the offensive Layers which can technically be considered counters to D2: Valkyrie, V2, Xcalibur, Minoboros, B2, Z2, Driger, I2, and L2, but I won't do it like that, because it's not that simple.
I definitely understand what you've been saying about this for a while, but you have to also consider than when we're talking about Beyblade, we can't possibly account for all potential situations. When I say something like "Minoboros is a counter to Dark Deathscyther", I can't explain every single time what precisely that means. To me, when discussing Beyblade at a deep level like this, there is a certain amount of prior knowledge and generalization required or else we'd be here all day and night explaining what exact match-ups we're referring to, what launch techniques are necessary, etc.
(Apr. 28, 2017 7:46 PM)Sıon Wrote: [ -> ]I honestly feel very passionate about how pathetic I find the burst meta game to be.
There is such little level of diversity it's sad, honestly. When I saw the sample of battles without Dark Deathscyther, all I saw in the winner column was a repetition of Valkyrie, Neptune, Wyvern, and occasionally Chaos. Out of all the layers that have been released, there were only four that have been used.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Burst is the single worst series in terms over variability, customizabilty, diversivity, and applicability . Even when you see the list of combos, I only saw one dual layer used. Burst is so poor in making parts genuinely useful that presecessors outclass their successors instead of outclassing or even coexisting with them
What "winner column" were you looking at? In addition to the ones you mentioned (although Chaos isn't really competitive, it has placed), things like the following have all been used in winning combinations for WBO events: Xcalibur, Victory Valkyrie, God Valkyrie, Zillion Zeus, Odin, Spriggan, Lost Longinus, Roktavor, Valtryek, Driger S, Gigant Gaia, Dragoon S, Blaze Ragnaruk ... I could keep going. From an objective standpoint, there is a problem with D2 in particular, but I think you're being far too harsh here.