All right, I've had enough.
There is no rule against talking back to staff here simply because I don't want to encourage an environment where staff are immune to criticism. However, the attitude of dissenting staff simply because they are an authority here has gone far enough, and I'm putting an end to it right now.
One of the best staff this site has ever had, Roan, has stepped down because he's had enough. And honestly, I've had enough to, but I don't really have the luxury of being able to step down, and this community means too much to me for me to consider it.
However, I do have a few questions to those of you who think we do such a terrible job here, who think that they know so much better than us, and I'd love to hear you respond.
When the Beyblade community was dead in the period between OtC and BBF, where were you? Why didn't you start a new site and gather everyone together?
When everyone was pissed off about BBF's management, where were you? Why didn't you rearrange the community?
Were you in Toronto at BND, hosting a gigantic tournament, running a Beyblade education panel, and giving away almost 100 Beyblades from your own personal collection?
Where the hell were you? Where do you get off? It's easy to sit back and carp about everything, and hell, we've listened to your complaints and opinions. This is a community website, but something has to hold it all together. Someone has to work for hours every day to make sure the site is constantly growing and improving and being a more attractive place for you. This site isn't free to run either; it costs money and time, and there are no ads anywhere. We ask nothing of any of you except for you to contribute whatever you can to our Wiki and to informational discussion on the boards. And let's face it, most of you don't.
So if you hate it so much here, leave. If you think we do such a terrible job, open your own site and do it better than us. Really. I'm carp tired of the ungrateful attitudes everyone here has for Roan, Kei, G and BT. They work hard and do everything they can.
But most of all, I'm sick of the fact that nobody seems to appreciate how much work I put into this. How every day takes at least a few hours upkeep in my part, how I worked for three days straight on a new theme to make site look better for everyone. How I'm doing my best to organize an entire association for sanctioned Beyblade play. How I, along with other members here, work for hours and hours writing articles and formatting the wiki and moderating the board. How I read every single post on this board to make sure everything is going OK, how I respond to every single post that I can help with. Just look at my post count, or my time spent on these forums, which, as of this writing, is:
1 Month, 3 Weeks, 1 Day, 21 Hours, 5 Minutes, 3 Seconds
And all of the other unfathomable, intangible work and passion and time and energy that goes into all of this, for you, for free.
And all you have to do is come here and enjoy the site, and we're happy. It makes us so happy when you're enjoying our work. But it often seems you aren't.
So, seriously, what have you done?
EDIT: BEYMARTYR is a great title for me to have right now.
(Aug. 27, 2008 7:50 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: [ -> ]When the Beyblade community was dead in the period between OtC and BBF, where were you? Why didn't you start a new site and gather everyone together?
Moved onto other Hobbies. Was there for Fun City, Celestrial Trigger. Not there for BBF. Didn't have funds nor emotional will at the time to start a forum. Went to Pokemon and shooters...
(Aug. 27, 2008 7:50 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: [ -> ]When everyone was pissed off about BBF's management, where were you? Why didn't you rearrange the community?
Wasn't there...
(Aug. 27, 2008 7:50 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: [ -> ]Were you in Toronto at BND, hosting a gigantic tournament, running a Beyblade education panel, and giving away almost 100 Beyblades from your own personal collection?
No where close to doing that...just running my small little BotB tournaments with help from others. At the time, no funds or sufficent blading material to give away, although that too is slowly changing..
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I have been ungrateful. But all I ever wanted was a place where people wouldn't get piled onto because they knew less or weren't as smart/quick. Where members other than Grey could succeed and learn.
(Aug. 27, 2008 8:13 AM)flashfox Wrote: [ -> ]I have been ungrateful. But all I ever wanted was a place where people wouldn't get piled onto because they knew less or weren't as smart/quick. Where members other than Grey could succeed and learn.
Nobody's been piled on. We've done a damn good job whipping the community into shape and restructuring the rules to make this community better for everyone. I'd like to see the instances of where people are getting "piled on", and instances where people are being ignorant and refusing to listen to correct information despite unanimous opposition don't count.
I don't really know how to respond to this other than to say that my decision to step down as Admin was not influenced by any one particular person or event.
Rather, my decision was made as a culmination of recent events. I can't pinpoint exactly what the reasoning is, but it seems to me that there has been a lot of hostility among the community aimed at the entire staff of this site, but in particular towards Brad and I.
I understand that a lot of this is coming our way because we are, for lack of a better term (and I hate to say this about myself because it sounds so arrogant and self-important) the "leaders" of this board. So of course, when problems arise, they are brought to attention. That's the way it should be, sure, but when people are attacking us for things that really have no basis in fact or for the way the forum is run when we have recently gone completely out of our way to make things better for everyone here it starts to get frustrating.
What I really mean to say is that I feel as if we are the ones who are ripped apart by the lot of you the most simply because we are staff and are the most prolific members on the board. Whatever wrongdoing happens outside of us never seems to be brought up, but heaven forbid if one of us should step out of line -- all carp hell breaks loose. The fact is, we're humans too you guys. We can't be perfect as much as we'd like to, and we all have our own little personality quirks. I realize that sometimes I can be pretty carp harsh on you all, but this is only because I care about this community that much and it frustrates the carp HELL out of me to put so much effort into something where I am constantly scrutinized not for what I've done, but for what I haven't.
I have made a very conscious effort in the past month or two to alter the mood of this board as well as my own behavior in an attempt at making this a better place for everyone, but also to make it more enjoyable for myself because quite frankly, coming to this board has been anything BUT enjoyable as of late.
I don't want to leave this board or this community, I really don't. But I will say right now that if things keep going the way they have been that I have no problem packing up and never speaking to any of you again.
To be honest, while all of this is true, and it's probably high time it's mentioned, I don't think this will have any effect on the board as a whole. Hopefully something happens, though.
I really think we just need to be more welcoming and sorta stop going into groups and breaking off from the community, to me this site feels like you guys ( Mods ) are close cut and when new people step in it kinda gets "awkward" and leads to arguments and so on, what im saying is that you guys just need to relax, take it easy and take things light hearted, to me it feels like everything is so serious with you guys.
(Aug. 27, 2008 10:49 AM)Sega Wrote: [ -> ]I really think we just need to be more welcoming and sorta stop going into groups and breaking off from the community, to me this site feels like you guys ( Mods ) are close cut and when new people step in it kinda gets "awkward" and leads to arguments and so on, what im saying is that you guys just need to relax, take it easy and take things light hearted, to me it feels like everything is so serious with you guys.
How have we not been welcoming? What are you even talking about? Do you have any examples? As of late we have been more than welcoming to newcomers.
(Aug. 27, 2008 8:13 AM)flashfox Wrote: [ -> ]I have been ungrateful. But all I ever wanted was a place where people wouldn't get piled onto because they knew less or weren't as smart/quick. Where members other than Grey could succeed and learn.
Ever since Roan proposed new rules and attitude for the forum the amount of people getting 'piled' on, and usually
deservingly so, has diminished. The only time people are called out are when they post inaccurate information, break rules, or completely ignore information. The majority of these instances are usually backed by simple corrections.
If some one says something that's obviously wrong, they need to be corrected.
(Aug. 27, 2008 10:49 AM)Sega Wrote: [ -> ]I really think we just need to be more welcoming and sorta stop going into groups and breaking off from the community, to me this site feels like you guys ( Mods ) are close cut and when new people step in it kinda gets "awkward" and leads to arguments and so on, what im saying is that you guys just need to relax, take it easy and take things light hearted, to me it feels like everything is so serious with you guys.
This forum has been welcoming.
Reprimanding, and correcting members seems to be taken as hostility here.
I really think alot of this anger is coming from members that have a long history with this community.
(Aug. 27, 2008 10:50 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: [ -> ] (Aug. 27, 2008 10:49 AM)Sega Wrote: [ -> ]I really think we just need to be more welcoming and sorta stop going into groups and breaking off from the community, to me this site feels like you guys ( Mods ) are close cut and when new people step in it kinda gets "awkward" and leads to arguments and so on, what im saying is that you guys just need to relax, take it easy and take things light hearted, to me it feels like everything is so serious with you guys.
How have we not been welcoming? What are you even talking about? Do you have any examples? As of late we have been more than welcoming to newcomers.
Anyone can say " Hey Welcome to the site " and so on, but its just the Attitude some of you guys give to them, of course theres going to be people who won't know as much and are always going to be asking questions all the time but some of you need to get this " Im better than you " mentality out of your heads.
Again, please provide examples. So far nobody has been able to provide any. All I can ascertain is that you want the more knowledgeable members to not act knowledgeable. It is the duty of the "higher-ups" to be community leaders and to correct and to teach. If someone knows what they are talking about and a new member doesn't, I see no reason for the veteran to back down.
There is always going to be a perceived arrogance in people who know what they are talking about and are not afraid to act like it.
I joined Yesterday... Everyone seems really nice and helpful to me. I really love it here =D
So I really don't understand what your talking about.
But then again... I really wouldn't know what your talking about... I havn't seen any hostility so far =/
I never read the drama posts, it's never relevant to the thread, and it's usually aimless bickering. LAWL INTERNET DRAMA
(Aug. 27, 2008 8:20 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: [ -> ] (Aug. 27, 2008 8:13 AM)flashfox Wrote: [ -> ]I have been ungrateful. But all I ever wanted was a place where people wouldn't get piled onto because they knew less or weren't as smart/quick. Where members other than Grey could succeed and learn.
Nobody's been piled on. We've done a damn good job whipping the community into shape and restructuring the rules to make this community better for everyone. I'd like to see the instances of where people are getting "piled on", and instances where people are being ignorant and refusing to listen to correct information despite unanimous opposition don't count.
Well of course, one of my principles since the OtC days was making sure that people could survive on OtC. There is still an underlying
fear of people doing certain things
wrong and being essentially
killed for doing them. Yes, some of it is warranted, but I suppose the message is this:
While it is great and all to pile on those people who are being ignorant and refuse to listen to correct information, I guess those things cause fear in itself. It's not something that I would personally like for it to happen in these forums, but I understand that this isn't the sentiments of staff.
It still creates a hostility in the forum. Yes, things are much better, progress is being made, survival rates are improved. All positives for the signs of this forum. It's easy to understand why staff would be upset when accusations that are baseless are levied, with all that progress that has occurred.
But if change has fully occurred in these forums, I don't see why pockets of
incidents would come
come up at times. I think that there still work to be done, and that this shows it. I am guilty of being judgmental as well, even perhaps because of past posts. This is something that everyone needs to work on.
Flashfox, its easy for you to sit here and point out everything wrong because really you have no place or position with which to change it, you're just part of the peanut gallery, only posting when things go wrong and just to throw it in our faces.
You do this constantly and it always upsets me. Every one of the links you included in your post (save for the last one where Brad went a little too far, but even then, I let him know he went too far -- it was taken care of), the poster in question deserved what was said to them, and what WAS said to them wasn't even harsh or undeserving. Why did you even bother bringing up rockblade's topic about what DEMS stands for? That was handled very well, the question was answered, Brad asked him to use the Ask a Question topic in the future and the topic was locked.
How else would you have liked that to happen?
The incident with Evan yesterday, while it did go on longer than I would've liked, wasn't unnecessary and certainly wasn't undeserving. I can't believe you're even bringing that up as an example.
Flashfox Wrote:But if change has fully occurred in these forums, I don't see why pockets of incidents would come come up at times. I think that there still work to be done, and that this shows it. I am guilty of being judgmental as well, even perhaps because of past posts. This is something that everyone needs to work on.
We can't just radically change the board and our behavior overnight man, of course there are still going to be incidents where one of us slips up, we're human, these things happen. The fact that you expect otherwise honestly carp
baffles me. I proposed new rules to the community and asked for
everyone to change, and it seems to me that only a few people were willing to actually go through with it, while the rest of them decided they'd sit back and criticism the whole thing without putting any effort into changing themselves.
Brad warned me that this would probably happen when I proposed the new rules. He said its easy for everyone to
say they're going to change, but how many of them actually will? Its clear to me now that
very carp few of you all have. And I'm sick of being treated like I have to be the one to be perfect when the rest of you can act like carp idiots and get away with it.
I haven't complained about anything, but I haven't contributed to the wiki either, I'm just here for the community, I hope that's okay?
(Aug. 27, 2008 5:59 PM)SK Wrote: [ -> ]I haven't complained about anything, but I haven't contributed to the wiki either, I'm just here for the community, I hope that's okay?
That's perfectly fine. You're here chatting and being a generally positive person to have in the community.
I think that to be honest, it's easy for us normal members to point out the mistakes made by the admins, or to try and flame them for not mentioning something. However, I don't think we can really judge until we've been in that position ourselves.
Anybody can sit back and point out mistakes, but it takes a special knd of person to do something about it
By the way, this is not a dig at anyone, just my point of view
Disclaimer: This is not a personal attack on any level. This is not meant to offend. This is just constructive criticism. And excuse me, but I have some posting to catch up to, so I'm going to be addressing rather old posts.
I think perhaps my links may have overshadowed my argument.
(Aug. 27, 2008 8:32 AM)flashfox's argument]There is still an underlying fear of people doing certain things wrong and being essentially killed for doing them.[/quote]
This is what I am saying. People here fear the staff. There is so much fear of doing something wrong, of doing something that will displease the staff, that they inherently fear them and fear doing things wrong. I don't know where this stereotype came from, I don't know how it was established. It could be from past history, present examples, personality, etc, but it's definitely there. All I was saying that this fear needs to change, and statements like Ugh I am half tempted to ban you just for saying this." doesn't help that fear that exists.
[quote='Roan Wrote: [ -> ]What I really mean to say is that I feel as if we are the ones who are ripped apart by the lot of you the most simply because we are staff and are the most prolific members on the board. Whatever wrongdoing happens outside of us never seems to be brought up, but heaven forbid if one of us should step out of line -- all carp hell breaks loose. The fact is, we're humans too you guys. We can't be perfect as much as we'd like to, and we all have our own little personality quirks. I realize that sometimes I can be pretty carp harsh on you all, but this is only because I care about this community that much and it frustrates the carp HELL out of me to put so much effort into something where I am constantly scrutinized not for what I've done, but for what I haven't.
(Aug. 27, 2008 5:45 PM)Roan Wrote: [ -> ]We can't just radically change the board and our behavior overnight man, of course there are still going to be incidents where one of us slips up, we're human, these things happen. The fact that you expect otherwise honestly carp baffles me. I proposed new rules to the community and asked for everyone to change, and it seems to me that only a few people were willing to actually go through with it, while the rest of them decided they'd sit back and criticism the whole thing without putting any effort into changing themselves.
Brad warned me that this would probably happen when I proposed the new rules. He said its easy for everyone to say they're going to change, but how many of them actually will? Its clear to me now that very carp few of you all have. And I'm sick of being treated like I have to be the one to be perfect when the rest of you can act like carp idiots and get away with it.
To put it bluntly, because you are staff, you shoulder more expectations than anyone else on the forum. You alluded that you guys are the leaders of the forum, and as leaders, you will be scrutinized for every move you make, and every move you did not make. That is the burden and the load the administrators and the moderators carry. There is very few benefits, and a load of work. Yes it is unfair, but that is what the title brings. The members of the forum will not change unless the staff is truly dedicated to it. You are essentially bey-martyrs.
The policy of this staff has been pretty clear. Anyone who is stupid, ignorant, and refuses to change will get piled onto. Brad aludes that situations like that don't count in the be nice and civil policy the forum is trying to promote. And that is fine. There is nothing wrong with that.
But the inherent contradictions and inherent dangers in these policies is what creates a fear-factor of the staff. Perhaps Brad is right in his statement of perceived arrogance from more knowledgeable members, which of course is a bit of a turn-off and causes fear.
I'm just here to point out that yesterday still shows that while the staff has made all sorts of progress, probably hit an all time high in new member survival rates, there is work to be done. We can't risk outbursts of "i'll ban you because of stupid statement x". It shouldn't be how this forum is run. Statements like these jeopardize progress that has been made.
Synesthesia's Rep Wrote:Maybe one of the best newcomers we've ever had. Thanks for your contributions.
Synesthesia Wrote:This forum has been welcoming.
Reprimanding, and correcting members seems to be taken as hostility here.
You aren't one of the problems. You and Grey are probably the biggest success stories we've had ever since we got Alan, Beo, and BT to come over here from beyblade.com forums. I don't know where you came from Synethesia, but wherever you did come from, you were well trained in stricter foruming and forum rules. But I disagree with that statement. Correcting members here is fine. Reprimanding members here is fine. It's that for some reason, people here still tend to fear staff, and the root isn't exactly clear.
The worst part of is that Roan is right. I am in no position or place to change it, but this doesn't mean that I will not try, and I will not point it out.
OK I'm not a hostile person, and I don't try to project it.
I hope
no one felt this way with my general behavior on the board. If so, mybad.
I think I've tried to be postive and encouraging.
However I think I have been too harsh on Brad, and most would not know it. Sorry.
Really I can't see things the same way, so really I am done fighting any of the moderation.
Its always easier to see the negatives vs postives.
I've read many other Forums and this one is still the best.
Today I went and read every post I ever wrote. Of them a few were instigating and a bit too righteous. But I meant well then and still do.
I really only time I switched sides on the Ichida bashing debacle
ref.. Then again peoples opinions are not set in stone. I though it had gone to far once I understood the enviroment 4chan was/is.
Still this post is after the fact, so it doesn't mean as much as had it stood alone, but still realized all this yesterday.
***
To touch on the subject of welcoming, that is not simply up to the Mods!?
THATS Absurd.
Im not even going to pretend I'm some prince, I know I don't hangout in the welcome forum. I remember how intimidating it can be to post.
But I know it try to make an effort, ie
Now, don't all just jump in and reply now. :\
It was interesting, not written the best but english is not his first launguage.
Thats an example. So everyone, mainly just members realize its not just up to the mods. Make them feel like they aren't ignored.
This post is not exactly cohesive. The board does need a different attitude, but who is the majority? Mods? or Members?
Thought so.
I propose a motto: WWBBD
What Would BeyBrad Do?
But srsly, I hate it when people argue on the forums over something so simplistic, and have it drag on for 3 pages or so. I CAN'T READ THE GUD STUFF, and nothing good comes out (haha) of pointless arguing. Some people just have to start finding out for themselves that they don't know every single little detail out there, and that they just COULD BE wrong sometimes.
Flashfox, you don't make any effort towards any positive change at all. You just point out other people's shortcomings and don't work in your own way to make the community a better place. Maybe you should take a look at your own actions.
People keep talking about how we pile onto people and are rude, but NOBODY HAS POSTED ANY CONSISTENT EXAMPLES! So what are you talking about? Are the things you are mentioning actually occurring, or is it your own prejudices speaking up?
Are a lot of these dissensions happening in the Beyblade section? It's not a forum I visit on a consistent basis, but I haven't noticed this 'incessant hostility'.
As for what I have personally done, hopefully not much to offend. I've made it a point to try to take things in stride be a better person, as I was awfully hostile for a greater portion of my years within the community.
(Aug. 27, 2008 11:35 PM)Artie Wrote: [ -> ]Are a lot of these dissensions happening in the Beyblade section? It's not a forum I visit on a consistent basis, but I haven't noticed this 'incessant hostility'.
As for what I have personally done, hopefully not much to offend. I've made it a point to try to take things in stride be a better person, as I was awfully hostile for a greater portion of my years within the community.
I think that's where the majority of it is. I know there was a spat between Evan and Brad which made it's way out to another forum.
I've only been here a couple days and I lurk in the music and game sections per usual so I didn't notice any of this going on. I've also been away from the community for close to a year or longer.
(Aug. 27, 2008 8:25 PM)flashfox Wrote: [ -> ]"flashfox's argument Wrote:There is still an underlying fear of people doing certain things wrong and being essentially killed for doing them.
I don't understand when you say that people fear the Mod's... When I post I think of everyone on the fourm as a fellow Human capable of resoning. Even if you do somthing wrong you won't get "killed for it" you'll just get told that it was wrong I guess. But, if somthing like that happens like 3 times you should be able to understand why the Mod's would be pissed at you!
Even you would be angry. Take this example for instance.
Think of all the members on the fourm as 5 year olds. If thet do somthing wrong they'll get told that it's wrong by the mod's. Now if you don't make the same mistake then they'll be fine. But if you keep doing the same mistake then your not learning from your past mistakes.
But aside from that I can't see why you would fear the Mod's or think of them as Higher beings. They are just like you and me except for the fact that they are not only there to post and have fun but to move threads, lock them, and generally make them a better Place.
Hope you all understand,
-James
(Aug. 27, 2008 3:52 PM)flashfox Wrote: [ -> ]and being essentially killed for doing them.
I notice you left a negative rep on Boh as well. :\