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Full Version: Concerns for Standard after the October releases
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(Oct. 06, 2021  5:25 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: [ -> ]
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:21 PM)originalzankye Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah pretty much this, people have limited tournament knowledge or don't even have a part and either assume a part is really bad or it should be banned, people need to avoid being so ban trigger happy for Burst Standard.
We arent (or at least I’m not) talking about banning a part. Drift shouldn’t be banned because it is not completely OP that’s obvious. But when you have 2 king of LAD drivers in a deck all you need is to get the first point and just keep choosing the opposite spin of your opponent. There is no banning, just not 2 drifts in a deck. And like HakaishinLDrago don’t assume that people have no knowledge.


Why are you getting so defensive? If it doesn't apply to you then you don't have to quote me or Kaiju because both of us were replying to th!nk's post of where they said "Lastly, again we're having another discussion about banning things before we've even seen what they do. I don't get why people are like this now."
 
Are you also projecting with your last part?  If in most cases people are ban trigger happy because they either do not have tournament experience OR do not have the part in their hand, so if they don't have the part or tournament experience then they do not have knowledge for the debate of a part ban.
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:32 PM)originalzankye Wrote: [ -> ]
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:25 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: [ -> ]We arent (or at least I’m not) talking about banning a part. Drift shouldn’t be banned because it is not completely OP that’s obvious. But when you have 2 king of LAD drivers in a deck all you need is to get the first point and just keep choosing the opposite spin of your opponent. There is no banning, just not 2 drifts in a deck. And like HakaishinLDrago don’t assume that people have no knowledge.


Why are you getting so defensive? If it doesn't apply to you then you don't have to quote me or Kaiju because both of us were replying to th!nk's post of where they said "Lastly, again we're having another discussion about banning things before we've even seen what they do. I don't get why people are like this now."
 
Are you also projecting with your last part? I don't If in most cases people are ban trigger happy but either do not have tournament experience OR do not have the part in their hand, then they do not have knowledge for the debate of a part ban.
Ok, first I am not even trying to ban anything. I am simply stating that 2 drifts in a deck is OP, as explained in the quote you just quoted. I’m not being defensive, I just don’t get why you assume people don’t have the part or have no experience or knowledge.
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:41 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: [ -> ]
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:32 PM)originalzankye Wrote: [ -> ]Why are you getting so defensive? If it doesn't apply to you then you don't have to quote me or Kaiju because both of us were replying to th!nk's post of where they said "Lastly, again we're having another discussion about banning things before we've even seen what they do. I don't get why people are like this now."
 
Are you also projecting with your last part? I don't If in most cases people are ban trigger happy but either do not have tournament experience OR do not have the part in their hand, then they do not have knowledge for the debate of a part ban.
Ok, first I am not even trying to ban anything. I am simply stating that 2 drifts in a deck is OP, as explained in the quote you just quoted. I’m not being defensive, I just don’t get why you assume people don’t have the part or have no experience or knowledge.

Ok buddy then this is going to be real simple for you

If what me and Kaiju were talking about was what th!nk said then YOU do not have to self insert yourself into the conversation for that very specific instance. 

For the last part what I don't understand is if you have read what me and Kaiju said in the original post. 

If Kaiju says "From what I've seen/discussed from others" then explain to me how you read that, and got the idea that the both of us are making assumptions.

How can we make an assumption if we have actually seen and talked to people who have had that mindset?????
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:45 PM)originalzankye Wrote: [ -> ]
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:41 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: [ -> ]Ok, first I am not even trying to ban anything. I am simply stating that 2 drifts in a deck is OP, as explained in the quote you just quoted. I’m not being defensive, I just don’t get why you assume people don’t have the part or have no experience or knowledge.

Ok buddy then this is going to be real simple for you

If what me and Kaiju talking about was what th!nk said then YOU do not have to self insert yourself into the conversation. 

For the last part what I don't understand is if you have read what me and Kaiju said in the original post. 

If Kaiju says "From what I've seen/discussed from others" then explain to me how you read that, and got the idea that the both of us are making assumptions.

How can we make an assumption if we have actually seen and talked to people who have had that mindset?????
I did read what you guys said, but those are the people on discord you were referring to. Maybe the people who you talked to on discord had that mindset, but why are you taking that here and assuming that the people here also have that mindset?
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:49 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: [ -> ]
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:45 PM)originalzankye Wrote: [ -> ]Ok buddy then this is going to be real simple for you

If what me and Kaiju talking about was what th!nk said then YOU do not have to self insert yourself into the conversation. 

For the last part what I don't understand is if you have read what me and Kaiju said in the original post. 

If Kaiju says "From what I've seen/discussed from others" then explain to me how you read that, and got the idea that the both of us are making assumptions.

How can we make an assumption if we have actually seen and talked to people who have had that mindset?????
I did read what you guys said, but those are the people on discord you were referring to. Maybe the people who you talked to on discord had that mindset, but why are you taking that here and assuming that the people here also have that mindset?

because they're WBO members, I didn't want to name anyone but I'll give 2 examples of people I've talked to: Shindog and MagikHorse

They both have the same mindset as us do because the amount of people asking for bans is ridiculous especially when some if not most of them gave dumb reasoning
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:49 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: [ -> ]
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:45 PM)originalzankye Wrote: [ -> ]Ok buddy then this is going to be real simple for you

If what me and Kaiju talking about was what th!nk said then YOU do not have to self insert yourself into the conversation. 

For the last part what I don't understand is if you have read what me and Kaiju said in the original post. 

If Kaiju says "From what I've seen/discussed from others" then explain to me how you read that, and got the idea that the both of us are making assumptions.

How can we make an assumption if we have actually seen and talked to people who have had that mindset?????
I did read what you guys said, but those are the people on discord you were referring to. Maybe the people who you talked to on discord had that mindset, but why are you taking that here and assuming that the people here also have that mindset?

Please find the part in my original quote talking to Kaiju where I said "also the people here on this thread don't have tournament experience and don't have the part and they shouldn't talk". 

You are doing a strawman to me because you're arguing something I never said.
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:51 PM)HakaishinLDrago Wrote: [ -> ]
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:49 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: [ -> ]I did read what you guys said, but those are the people on discord you were referring to. Maybe the people who you talked to on discord had that mindset, but why are you taking that here and assuming that the people here also have that mindset?

because they're WBO members, I didn't want to name anyone but I'll give 2 examples of people I've talked to: Shindog and MagikHorse
Ok so they might be WBO members, but why are you talking as if everyone has that mindset? You talked to a few people on discord but speak as of everyone has that mindset. Maybe it’s just me reading it wrong but it seems like you are referring to everyone rather than the specific people you mentioned.

(Oct. 06, 2021  5:53 PM)originalzankye Wrote: [ -> ]
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:49 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: [ -> ]I did read what you guys said, but those are the people on discord you were referring to. Maybe the people who you talked to on discord had that mindset, but why are you taking that here and assuming that the people here also have that mindset?

Please find the part in my original quote talking to Kaiju where I said "also the people here on this thread don't have tournament experience and don't have the part and they shouldn't talk". 

You are doing a strawman to me because you're arguing something I never said.

Here you go. “Yeah pretty much this, people have limited tournament knowledge or don't even have a part and either assume a part is really bad or it should be banned, people need to avoid being so ban trigger happy for Burst Standard”
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:53 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: [ -> ]
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:51 PM)HakaishinLDrago Wrote: [ -> ]because they're WBO members, I didn't want to name anyone but I'll give 2 examples of people I've talked to: Shindog and MagikHorse
Ok so they might be WBO members, but why are you talking as if everyone has that mindset? You talked to a few people on discord but speak as of everyone has that mindset. Maybe it’s just me reading it wrong but it seems like you are referring to everyone rather than the specific people you mentioned.

(Oct. 06, 2021  5:53 PM)originalzankye Wrote: [ -> ]Please find the part in my original quote talking to Kaiju where I said "also the people here on this thread don't have tournament experience and don't have the part and they shouldn't talk". 

You are doing a strawman to me because you're arguing something I never said.

Here you go. “[font="Source Sans Pro", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Yeah pretty much this, people have limited tournament knowledge or don't even have a part and either assume a part is really bad or it should be banned, people need to avoid being so ban trigger happy for Burst Standard”[/font]

You gotta stop with these faulty arguments, dear god.

In my ORIGINAL quote, it is in direct to what Kaiju said about people that he's talked to and discuss, that's why I said that.


Kaiju also isn't saying everyone has this mindset, neither my post nor Kaiju ever generalized to say "everyone".

You need to stop constantly replying to both of us to stir up an argument caused by your confusion.
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:49 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: [ -> ]
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:45 PM)originalzankye Wrote: [ -> ]Ok buddy then this is going to be real simple for you

If what me and Kaiju talking about was what th!nk said then YOU do not have to self insert yourself into the conversation. 

For the last part what I don't understand is if you have read what me and Kaiju said in the original post. 

If Kaiju says "From what I've seen/discussed from others" then explain to me how you read that, and got the idea that the both of us are making assumptions.

How can we make an assumption if we have actually seen and talked to people who have had that mindset?????
I did read what you guys said, but those are the people on discord you were referring to. Maybe the people who you talked to on discord had that mindset, but why are you taking that here and assuming that the people here also have that mindset?

I agree the every time in latest posts 5 of them are ban this ban that on every item and part that there is two versions or has high lad and a dash tip
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:32 PM)originalzankye Wrote: [ -> ]
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:25 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: [ -> ]We arent (or at least I’m not) talking about banning a part. Drift shouldn’t be banned because it is not completely OP that’s obvious. But when you have 2 king of LAD drivers in a deck all you need is to get the first point and just keep choosing the opposite spin of your opponent. There is no banning, just not 2 drifts in a deck. And like HakaishinLDrago don’t assume that people have no knowledge.
Why are you getting so defensive? If it doesn't apply to you then you don't have to quote me or Kaiju because both of us were replying to th!nk's post of where they said "Lastly, again we're having another discussion about banning things before we've even seen what they do. I don't get why people are like this now."
Are you also projecting with your last part?  If in most cases people are ban trigger happy because they either do not have tournament experience OR do not have the part in their hand, and if they don't have the part or tournament experience then they do not have knowledge for the debate of a part ban.

I don't get it either. Like, I don't necessarily agree that tournament experience is required if you know the parts well enough to be able to objectively test them (preferably with a friend, but with enough knowledge it's not required. Sadly I have been chewed out a ton when people were trying to ban a part I could beat really easily at home because of this "you haven't been to a tournament" logic, and it is rather toxic to assume people don't know anything if they've never had the opportunity to go). There is definitely something in saying "I struggle to beat this, is anyone else having trouble too?", and I won't deny them their input... but at least make sure you know the part thoroughly before you open your mouth. "It's used too much" or "It's too spammable" are not reasons to ban anything, and instead of trying to ban that part people should be looking for other ways to beat it instead. Don't just grumble, th!nk people!

Either way I feel like Rogue's overhyping "maximum LAD" way too much, and that's part of the big issue here. When you get LAD this high you reach a point where part variation, balance tuning, late game contact angles, and other factors often make it not as clear-cut as "this driver will win 100%". Drift has a 40-45% winrate based on launches against my blue Wolborg Bearing, and I've won many rounds using it at the tournament level against both same-spin and opposite-spin threats. I've seen another person get a positive (over 50%) winrate against Drift in opposite spin with a somewhat worn (but still legal) Mobius. I'm not even sure there is ever a true "Max LAD" right now, because some things will out-LAD others that supposedly more, so realistically any of the top LAD options are equal in it. Some of them are just slightly better or worse against another top LAD options is all.
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:56 PM)originalzankye Wrote: [ -> ]
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:53 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: [ -> ]Ok so they might be WBO members, but why are you talking as if everyone has that mindset? You talked to a few people on discord but speak as of everyone has that mindset. Maybe it’s just me reading it wrong but it seems like you are referring to everyone rather than the specific people you mentioned.


Here you go. “[font="Source Sans Pro", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Yeah pretty much this, people have limited tournament knowledge or don't even have a part and either assume a part is really bad or it should be banned, people need to avoid being so ban trigger happy for Burst Standard”[/font]

You gotta stop with these faulty arguments, dear god.

In my ORIGINAL quote, it is in direct to what Kaiju said about people that he's talked to and discuss, that's why I said that.


Kaiju also isn't saying everyone has this mindset, neither my post nor Kaiju ever generalized to say "everyone".

You need to stop constantly replying to both of us to stir up an argument caused by your confusion.
Oh! Ok, I realize my mistake now. He was talking about the people on discord and you were just replying to him referring to what he said. Sorry about all that, I was confused, I assumed you were talking about everyone but didn’t realize you were talking about what he said. Sorry about that big argument, I misread what you said.
(Oct. 06, 2021  5:53 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: [ -> ]Ok so they might be WBO members, but why are you talking as if everyone has that mindset? You talked to a few people on discord but speak as of everyone has that mindset. Maybe it’s just me reading it wrong but it seems like you are referring to everyone rather than the specific people you mentioned.

Is this mindset somehow a bad thing? If it's not, then look at it objectively and consider whether a mindset of trying to find counters before banning a part is better or worse than just trying to ban anything people give a knee-jerk ban reaction to.

I mean heck, JA Industries can confirm that I beat a Vanish combo on Tapered Drift using Dynamite+F Belial Giga Orbit in his first tournament, all by KO. It's a bit flukey, sure, but come on! If I've bested Drift with Orbit in opposite spin with witnesses to testify to it, why are we even worried about this thing?
I think we should just wait and see what happens when people have the ability to double dip on drift or bearing before we continue the discussion. Based on the parts that have been available at tournaments thus far there is no need for this rule that I can see anyone arguing for, so the topic is now just semantics or predictions.

Why don't we all agree to drop it for the moment and have another look if we start actually seeing significant double ups happen?
(Oct. 07, 2021  1:47 AM)th!nk Wrote: [ -> ]I think we should just wait and see what happens when people have the ability to double dip on drift or bearing before we continue the discussion. Based on the parts that have been available at tournaments thus far there is no need for this rule that I can see anyone arguing for, so the topic is now just semantics or predictions.

Why don't we all agree to drop it for the moment and have another look if we start actually seeing significant double ups happen?

I agree. We can all think and theorize what we want but let’s wait until we see how people handle it once they get their hands on the releases.
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