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+---- Thread: Takara Tomy Nightmare Longinus, Union (Speed), Hazard Kerbeus, Buster Xcalibur Comparison (/Thread-Takara-Tomy-Nightmare-Longinus-Union-Speed-Hazard-Kerbeus-Buster-Xcalibur-Comparison)
Nightmare Longinus, Union (Speed), Hazard Kerbeus, Buster Xcalibur Comparison - Wombat - Mar. 26, 2021
Now that I've finally gotten my grubby little hands on the TT Union, hK, and bX, I decided to test them to find out which was the best, and which, if any, could be a right spin counterpart to nL. The idea for this was kind of inspired by henwooja's video comparing aZ3, T3, and H4, so in a sense this is what these tests are trying to accomplish.
I've only done the first part of these so far, against Stamina, but will do vs. Defense at some point in the near future hopefully. Maybe I'll even make my own video recapping all this after I finish the 2nd (and maybe 1.5th) part.
Combo Selection
Hazard Kerbeus 7Dagger Xtreme': According to what Shindog's told me, hK is most effective in the first ~3 seconds of the battle, and needs to be moving fast, so Xtreme' is the obvious first choice, though Ev' could also work. I wanted to put 10 or 00 on it but they kind of lined up weird especially with Dagger, so 7 it was, as 0 would have slowed it down a bit more. I wish the lil frame holders on 10 and 00 were in different places, it would keep them from being basically the same disk.
Union (Speed Mode) Pegasus 00Dagger Xtreme' GEN: Union is also supposedly very fast, so same logic applies. I wonder if Ev would make this better since I noticed it was kinda smashing F3. This time 00 lines up right with the contact points. I only used Pegasus because it made the whole Layer RED
Buster Xcalibur 10Cross Charge: I had a hard time finding a good combo for bX because it's not just a KO Attacker like the others, and I still don't really know what it's supposed to be. It's a bit of a danger bomb I guess. sX is actually better at stationary Attack on Om (I tried Om and Un on bX and neither could burst C3, while sX did pretty consistently) and it tended to waste X's aggression (Qc' was a little better at this, but Charge had the overall best performance). Chm or Charge' can probably be used as replacements, but not Ωcta.
Nightmare Longinus Turn Xtreme': established competitive nL setup.
I've also recently gotten the Absorb-S Driver, so I'll be using that, and my 10 Cross that balances pretty well with most things on it, and Fafnir F3 and Caynox C3 for my dummy "Stamina" combo. It's a common, all purpose stamina combo that you're likely to run into at some point. Mine does not have a particularly tight spring, but it's usable. I prefer to use it on H4 over either of these 2 Layers.
Defense
Geist Fafnir 0Lift Ωcta: It's like 64 grams, decent LAD, same spin Stamina, and burst resistance. I think it's one of the only really viable Defense combos in Limited.
Maximum Garuda 00 Keep': Unlike the left spin version, this one is light, but is also basically a perfect circle and has a lot of grip. With the way the whole Garuda mechanism works it gets like an extra special buff from the Dash Driver, so you don't have to worry about bursting either.
Same Spin
Hazard Kerbeus 7Dagger Xtreme' vs. Caynox C3 10Cross Absorb-S
hK.7D.X': 15 wins (6 KO, 9 Burst)
C3.10C.Ab-S: 5 wins (all OS)
2 ties redone
hK.7D.X' win rate: 75%
hK actually has a lot of OWD that contributes to its movement speed, making it a bit difficult to control. Once I figured out how to aim it correctly, it tended to get a lot of powerful hits in the first window and even a few mid/late game bursts.
Union Pegasus 10Dagger Xtreme' vs. Caynox C3 10Cross Absorb-S
UP.10D.X': 19 wins (6 KO, 13 Burst)
C3.10C.Ab-S: 1 win (OS)
UP.10D.X' win rate: 95%
This was very impressive. Or maybe C3 just really sucks.
Buster Xcalibur 10Cross Charge vs. Caynox C3 10Cross Absorb-S
bX.10C.Ch: 17 wins (3 KO, 14 Burst)
C3.10C.Ab-S: 3 wins (all OS)
bX.10C.Ch win rate: 85%
I dunno why Charge works with this when Un, At, and Om don't. Maybe this thing is just like the Limited danger bomb, that'd be cool.
BONUS: Buster Xcalibur 10Cross Quick' vs. Caynox C3 10Cross Absorb-S
bX.10C.Qc': 6 wins (all Burst)
C3.10C.Ab-S: 4 wins (all OS)
bX.10C.Qc' win rate: 60%
Nightmare Longinus Turn Xtreme' vs. Fafnir F3 10Cross Absorb-S
nL.T.X': 16 wins (2 OS, 5 KO, 9 Burst)
f3.10C.Ab-S: 4 wins (3 OS, 1 KO)
nL.T.X' win rate: 80%
All of them performed exceedingly well against their same spin Stamina combos, but I have a feeling that the real culprit is my Ab-S. Maybe I should try with F3/aZ3 on At-S as more of a Same Spin Stamina/Burst Defense hybrid.
Opposite Spin
Hazard Kerbeus 7Dagger Xtreme' vs. Fafnir F3 10Cross Absorb-S
hK.7D.X':11 wins (10 KO 1 Burst)
F3.10C.Ab-S: 9 wins (1 KO 8 OS)
hK.7D.X' win rate: 55%
If you nail the first hit hK doesn't really care about spin direction. It's like Flash, Manta Diver, and a Doge all in one.
Union Pegasus 10Dagger Xtreme' vs. Fafnir F3 10Cross Absorb-S
UP.10D.X': 6 wins (all KO)
F3.10C.Ab-S: 14 wins (all OS)
UP.10D.X' win rate: 30%
This surprised me considering how well it did in same spin (again, maybe C3 is just bad). There were a lot of "almost" KOs, but it just couldn't knock F3 back quite far enough to KO it.
Buster Xcalibur 10Cross Charge vs. Fafnir F3 10Cross Absorb-S
bX.10C.Ch: 6 wins (all KO)
F3.10C.Ab-S: 14 wins (1 KO, 2 Burst, 11 OS)
bX.10C.Ch win rate: 30%
I kind of expected this one to do bad against opposite spin, mainly due to the Driver. It was able to weight room F3 a few times though.
Nightmare Longinus Turn Xtreme' vs. Caynox C3 10Cross Absorb-S
nL.T.X': 8 wins (all KO)
C3.10C.Ab-S: 12 wins (all OS)
nL.T.X' win rate: 40%
Wow, looks like hK is better at KOing opposite spin than nL. In fact, hK was significantly better than all of the others in opposite spin. I don't know if Qc' or X' would help Buster much here without sacrificing too much of its same spin utility (which I feel this Charge combo has a lot of).
Conclusion (of Part 1 at least)
Nightmare Longinus: (0.8 x 0.5) + (0.4 x 0.5) = 0.6
Hazard Kerbeus: (0.75 x 0.5) + (0.55 x 0.5) = 0.65
Union Speed (TT): (0.95 x 0.5) + (0.3 x 0.5) = 0.625
Buster Xcalibur: (0.85 x 0.5) + (0.3 x 0.5) = 0.575
Though the numbers of each spin direction might be a bit different, since all of these parts perform slightly differently, the overall score vs "Stamina" so far is about the same. hK performed the best for me, and even before I did all the math that was the subjective opinion I had after doing these tests as well. They are all quite good in their own way though, For example hK is a lot more tech-y while bX you can just kind of launch hard.
RE: Nightmare Longinus, Union (Speed), Hazard Kerbeus, Buster Xcalibur Comparison - Wombat - Mar. 31, 2021
Did some more testing today at some point, but only getting around to posting it now against the Atomic-S combos I mentioned earlier, Fafnir F3 0Expand Atomic-S and Asteroid Zeutron 0Expand Atomic-S.
Same Spin
Spoiler (Click to View)
Opposite Spin
Spoiler (Click to View)
Updated Numbers
Vs. Atomic-S
Nightmare Longinus: (0.65 x 0.5) + (0.55 x 0.5) = 0.6
Hazard Kerbeus: (0.4 x 0.5) + (0.4 x 0.5) = 0.4
Union Speed (TT): (0.5 x 0.5) + (0.3 x 0.5) = 0.4
Buster Xcalibur: (0.35 x 0.5) + (0.15 x 0.5) = 0.25
This time nL beat hK, and bX was the worst again... which feels super weird to me because bX Ch' is probably the combo I'd pick first to fight a same spin At-S out of these four. Atomic-S seems to be particularly effective against hK.
Total
Nightmare Longinus: (0.8 x 0.25) + (0.4 x 0.25) + (0.65 x 0.25) + (0.55 x 0.25) = 0.6
Hazard Kerbeus: (0.75 x 0.25) + (0.55 x 0.25) + (0.4 x 0.25) + (0.4 x 0.25) = 0.525
Union Speed (TT): (0.95 x 0.25) + (0.3 x 0.25) + (0.5 x 0.25) + (0.3 x 0.25) = 0.5125
Buster Xcalibur: (0.85 x 0.25) + (0.3 x 0.25) + (0.35 x 0.25) + (0.15 x 0.25) = 0.4125
Maybe this is just confirmation bias but after seeing these numbers I'm kind of inclined to agree with them. I think when I first tested hK was my favorite, but now I'm starting to think nL is still just the all around best. I'm not sure what to think of Union yet, I feel like it might be overall worse than nL since it isn't as good against opposite spin? It's definitely very good in same spin. Same goes for bX, it may just be the way I'm trying to use it but it seems like it should only be used against right spin opponents.
RE: Nightmare Longinus, Union (Speed), Hazard Kerbeus, Buster Xcalibur Comparison - henwooja1 - Apr. 02, 2021
(Mar. 31, 2021 3:49 AM)Wombat Wrote: Did some more testing today at some point, but only getting around to posting it now against the Atomic-S combos I mentioned earlier, Fafnir F3 0Expand Atomic-S and Asteroid Zeutron 0Expand Atomic-S.
Same Spin
Spoiler (Click to View)
Opposite Spin
Spoiler (Click to View)
Updated Numbers
Vs. Atomic-S
Nightmare Longinus: (0.65 x 0.5) + (0.55 x 0.5) = 0.6
Hazard Kerbeus: (0.4 x 0.5) + (0.4 x 0.5) = 0.4
Union Speed (TT): (0.5 x 0.5) + (0.3 x 0.5) = 0.4
Buster Xcalibur: (0.35 x 0.5) + (0.15 x 0.5) = 0.25
This time nL beat hK, and bX was the worst again... which feels super weird to me because bX Ch' is probably the combo I'd pick first to fight a same spin At-S out of these four. Atomic-S seems to be particularly effective against hK.
Total
Nightmare Longinus: (0.8 x 0.25) + (0.4 x 0.25) + (0.65 x 0.25) + (0.55 x 0.25) = 0.6
Hazard Kerbeus: (0.75 x 0.25) + (0.55 x 0.25) + (0.4 x 0.25) + (0.4 x 0.25) = 0.525
Union Speed (TT): (0.95 x 0.25) + (0.3 x 0.25) + (0.5 x 0.25) + (0.3 x 0.25) = 0.5125
Buster Xcalibur: (0.85 x 0.25) + (0.3 x 0.25) + (0.35 x 0.25) + (0.15 x 0.25) = 0.4125
Maybe this is just confirmation bias but after seeing these numbers I'm kind of inclined to agree with them. I think when I first tested hK was my favorite, but now I'm starting to think nL is still just the all around best. I'm not sure what to think of Union yet, I feel like it might be overall worse than nL since it isn't as good against opposite spin? It's definitely very good in same spin. Same goes for bX, it may just be the way I'm trying to use it but it seems like it should only be used against right spin opponents.
Overall pretty similar to what I’ve found. bX is the worst overall but can be used on things like Octa and charge. Union is the most traditional right spin attacker and does it’s job, and hK is a weird needs the fist hits to win layer. nL ultimately will be the best purely because it’s the one that does the best against its opposing spin. Great testings here. I actually had a video planned for something very close to this but I guess that isn’t going to be as much of a long lost question I guess now lol
RE: Nightmare Longinus, Union (Speed), Hazard Kerbeus, Buster Xcalibur Comparison - Wombat - Apr. 04, 2021
(Apr. 02, 2021 11:58 PM)henwooja1 Wrote: Overall pretty similar to what I’ve found. bX is the worst overall but can be used on things like Octa and charge. Union is the most traditional right spin attacker and does it’s job, and hK is a weird needs the fist hits to win layer. nL ultimately will be the best purely because it’s the one that does the best against its opposing spin. Great testings here. I actually had a video planned for something very close to this but I guess that isn’t going to be as much of a long lost question I guess now lolSorry about taking the video idea, I was actually going to make one too (since the content was already there) but it's cool to see that we're at least getting similar results. I tried bX on Octa and ended up not liking it as much as Charge, imo unlike something like Roktavor or Judgement bX needs the little extra controllable movement to really bludgeon its opponents.
On an unrelated note, it's defense time!
Same Spin
Spoiler (Click to View)
Opposite Spin
Spoiler (Click to View)
Updated Numbers
Vs. Defense
Nightmare Longinus: (0.25 x 0.5) + (0.45 x 0.5) = 0.35
Hazard Kerbeus: (0.3 x 0.5) + (0.4 x 0.5) = 0.35
Union Speed (TT): (0.15 x 0.5) + (0.05 x 0.5) = 0.1
Buster Xcalibur: (0.15 x 0.5) + (0.10 x 0.5) = 0.125
Total
Nightmare Longinus: (0.8 x 0.166) + (0.4 x 0.166) + (0.65 x 0.166) + (0.55 x 0.166) + (0.25 x 0.166) + (0.45 x 0.166) = 0.516
Hazard Kerbeus: (0.75 x 0.166) + (0.55 x 0.166) + (0.4 x 0.166) + (0.4 x 0.166) + (0.3 x 0.166) + (0.4 x 0.166) = 0.466
Union Speed (TT): (0.95 x 0.166) + (0.3 x 0.166) + (0.5 x 0.166) + (0.3 x 0.166) + (0.15 x 0.166) + (0.05 x 0.166) = 0.375
Buster Xcalibur: (0.85 x 0.166) + (0.3 x 0.166) + (0.35 x 0.166) + (0.15 x 0.166) + (0.15 x 0.166) + (0.10 x 0.166) = 0.316
Yes these numbers look bad, but remember even though the attackers are the subject of this thread they were supposed to lose today's matchups. I just wanted to see by how much. As a result the following total numbers, representing their overall performance against the "meta" also go down.
That doesn't mean any of these Layers or combos are bad at all. What I'm using for the encounter rate as the second value for each matchup is only a placeholder to get it to add up to 1, and only represents a small portion (specifically, the small portion that's out to get them) of all the different combos and variations you could encounter using hK/nL/Union Speed/bX. Against random junk like Regulus or even other meta combos you could expect to see a higher winrate than in this post. The point was to see how their performances compared against I guess meta benchmark Stamina and Defense combos in both spin directions.
BONUS EDIT: Same/Opposite spin composite scores since I'm done with them all
Nightmare Longinus: (0.8 x 0.33) + (0.65 x 0.33) + (0.45 x 0.33) = 0.63
Hazard Kerbeus: (0.75 x 0.33) + (0.4 x 0.33) + (0.3 x 0.33) = 0.483
Union Speed (TT): (0.95 x 0.33) + (0.5 x 0.33) + (0.15 x 0.33) = 0.53
Buster Xcalibur: (0.85 x 0.33) + (0.35 x 0.33) + (0.15 x 0.33) = 0.45
Nightmare Longinus: (0.4 x 0.33) + (0.55 x 0.33) + (0.25 x 0.33) = 0.4
Hazard Kerbeus: (0.55 x 0.33) + (0.4 x 0.33) + (0.4 x 0.33) = 0.45
Union Speed (TT): (0.3 x 0.33) + (0.3 x 0.33) + (0.05 x 0.33) = 0.216
Buster Xcalibur: (0.3 x 0.33) + (0.15 x 0.33) + (0.10 x 0.33) = 0.183
Unsurprisingly, they all did better in same spin. hK outperformed nL in opposite spin, though idk how much of a surprise that is anymore either.
RE: Nightmare Longinus, Union (Speed), Hazard Kerbeus, Buster Xcalibur Comparison - 6Jupiter5 - Apr. 04, 2021
Union Diabolos Generate vs Geist Fafnir 00 glaive Absorb
Union: 50% (3 ko 2 os)
Geist Fafnir: 50% (5 os)
Redid any self ko rounds.
Buster Xcalibur 1’ dagger quick’ vs Geist Fafnir 00 Glaive Absorb
Buster: 70% (5 ko, 2 bursts)
Geist Fafnir: 30% (3 os)
RE: Nightmare Longinus, Union (Speed), Hazard Kerbeus, Buster Xcalibur Comparison - Ryuga's Son - Apr. 04, 2021
Comparing the four beys, Nightmare Longinus (in my opinion) tends to be superior
RE: Nightmare Longinus, Union (Speed), Hazard Kerbeus, Buster Xcalibur Comparison - [[ NØBØDY ]] - May. 27, 2021
TBH since i have hK too, I find it more reliable as a stamina type. It generally outclasses everything save for maybe sA and aH4.
Nightmare Longinus is pretty much shut down by Arc Bahamut/Deep Chaos on Keep' and needs Angle not to burst against Arc Bahamut.
May I ask:
Is Hell Kerbecs legal? like the remake.
Do you think you could try against some other meta defenders like:
aB.00.Kp', while it may not OS hK, I'm still interested to see how much attack hK will have.
gF.10C.Om I guess it's just me not convinced that Octa is as good as Orbit Metal.
Also your results seem different from mine when i tested some of these defenders. My Octa barely at all moved around and tanked the shots in the centre for gF (could be due to degree of wear?), and from your earlier test of aB you did not get any bursts however I managed to score a few bursts. however this may be because they were launched at the same time for mine? my brother does help me launch and the beys are launched at the same time