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Takara Tomy Union (Gen) Testing and Discussion [BSL] - Printable Version

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+---- Thread: Takara Tomy Union (Gen) Testing and Discussion [BSL] (/Thread-Takara-Tomy-Union-Gen-Testing-and-Discussion-BSL)



Union (Gen) Testing and Discussion [BSL] - AirKingNeo - Sep. 09, 2020

but isn't unbanning Union's speed mode unnecessarily complex? I'm pretty sure is a strawman of an argument someone made before. I think it would be easy, just say "Union (Speed Mode)" instead of "Union" when listing layer unbans, and also just put in a thing in the rulebook in the same section that covers mG God Chip ruling, Bullet rulings, and Phoenix rulings to say that Union cannot use the Union Sword attachment. Having both that 'special ruling' part AND saying "Union (Speed Mode)" would eliminate confusion.

Also I really like Union so I did a ton of tests for it.



Same Spin Test

Union Achilles.Outer.Orbit Gen vs Twin Nemesis.Outer.Orbit
(Simultaneous launches)
UA.outer.O Gen: 2 wins (1 OS, 1 BF)
tN.outer.O: 8 wins (8 OS)
Ties: 0
Notes: That one burst was very surprising.


Opposite Spin Test

Union Achilles.Outer.Destroy Gen vs Drain Fafnir.Outer.Destroy'
(Simultaneous launches)
UA.outer.Ds Gen: 0 wins
dF.outer.Ds': 10 wins (10 OS)
Ties: 0


As a KO Attacker

Union Spriggan.00Bump.Xtreme' Gen vs Twin Nemesis.00Proof.Atomic
(Union launched second)
US.00B.X' Gen: 3 wins (3 BF)
tN.00P.At: 7 wins (7 OS)
Ties: 0
Notes: My X' is somewhat worn, so others may find better success with Union.


As an Anti-Attacker

Union Spriggan.00Bump.Unite Gen vs Z Achilles.00Bump.Xtreme'
(zA launched second)
US.00B.U Gen: 8 wins (7 OS, 1 KO)
zA.00B.X': 2 wins (1 OS, 1 KO)
Ties: 0
Notes: My X' is somewhat worn, so others may find better success with zA.


As a Mixed Attacker
This is the part where I have fun. I feel like I'm better using attack on Assault'.


Union Spriggan.Outer.Assault' Gen vs Twin Nemesis.00Proof.Atomic
(Union launched second)
US.outer.assault' Gen: 7 wins (1 OS, 1 KO, 5 BF)
tN.00P.At: 3 wins (3 OS)
Ties: 0

Union Spriggan.00Expand.Destroy' Gen vs Twin Nemesis.00Proof.Atomic
(Union launched second)
US.00E.Ds' Gen: 6 wins (2 OS, 1 KO, 3 BF)
tN.00P.At: 4 wins (2 OS, 2 KO)
Ties: 1


Union Spriggan.Outer.Assault' Gen vs Alter Chronos.00Proof.Atomic
(Union launched second)
US.outer.assault' Gen: 3 wins (1 OS, 1 KO, 1 BF)
aC.00P.At: 7 wins (7 OS)
Ties: 0

Union Spriggan.00Expand.Destroy' Gen vs Alter Chronos.00Proof.Atomic
(Union launched second)
US.00E.Ds' Gen: 5 wins (4 OS, 1 KO)
aC.00P.At: 5 wins (5 OS)
Ties: 0


Union Spriggan.Outer.Assault' Gen vs Shining Amaterios.00Proof.Atomic
(Union launched second)
US.outer.assault' Gen: 5 wins (5 OS)
sA.00P.At: 5 wins (5 OS)
Ties: 0





Union, for me at least, seems fairly good at being a mixed attacker. However, it definitely becomes more skill based when facing more defensive opponents. tN on Atomic is definitely vulnerable to bursting and aC is definitely lacks stamina, so perhaps something in between might just counter Union effectively. Though it should be noted that Union being launched second in all of these matches did give it a stamina advantage. Simultaneous launches just aren't possible due to needing a flower pattern. I think its an edge case right now, but should Shining/Shadow Amaterios not be banned, I would include it in GT layers to unban (with only Gen allowed). The only potential issue is lacking burst risk due to the Gen weight. That said, I felt Slash was also an edge case, but I could get that to work on X', so I feel, to counter my bias of liking Union, to be a bit skeptical of Union.


RE: Union (Speed) (Gen) Testing - 6Jupiter5 - Sep. 09, 2020

thanks for making the Union testing I will post some time soon


RE: Union (Speed) (Gen) Testing - AirKingNeo - Sep. 18, 2020

Wombat wanted me to test Union (Power) Gen so here's some results:

SAME SPIN STAMINA

Union (Power) Achilles.Outer.Orbit Gen vs Twin Nemesis.Outer.Orbit
(Simultaneous launches)
UA.outer.O Gen: 1 wins (1 OS)
tN.outer.O: 9 wins (8 OS)
Ties: 0
Notes: Pretty much the same.

AS A KO ATTACKER

Union (Power) Achilles.00Bump.Xtreme' Gen vs Twin Nemesis.00Proof.Atomic
(Union launched second)
UA.00B.X' Gen: 7 wins (1 KO, 6 BF)
tN.00P.At: 3 wins (3 OS)
Ties: 0
Notes: Ok this time I'm launching Union better than my last test of it using X'. How? Sword launcher.

Union (Power) Achilles.00Bump.Xtreme' Gen vs Alter Chronos.00Proof.Atomic
(Union launched second)
UA.00B.X' Gen: 5 wins (4 OS, 1 KO)
aC.00P.At: 5 wins (5 OS)
Ties: 0

Union (Power) Achilles.00Bump.Xtreme' Gen vs Shining Amaterios.00Proof.Atomic
(Union launched second)
UA.00B.X' Gen: 4 wins (4 KO)
sA.00P.At: 6 wins (6 OS)
Ties: 0

AS A MIXED ATTACKER

Union (Power) Achilles.Outer.Assault' Gen vs Twin Nemesis.00Proof.Atomic
(Union launched second)
UA.outer.assault' Gen: 4 wins (1 KO, 3 BF)
tN.00P.At: 6 wins (6 OS)
Ties: 0

Union (Power) Achilles.Outer.Assault' Gen vs Alter Chronos.00Proof.Atomic
(Union launched second)
UA.outer.assault' Gen: 5 wins (5 OS)
aC.00P.At: 5 wins (5 OS)
Ties: 0

Union (Power) Achilles.Outer.Assault' Gen vs Shining Amaterios.00Proof.Atomic
(Union launched second)
UA.outer.assault' Gen: 3 wins (3 OS)
sA.00P.At: 7 wins (7 OS)
Ties: 0



Power mode seems too powerful as it is able to go just about even with stamina combos. It was able to OS aC despite using X' because it was powerful enough to destabilize aC, sort of like how Ace/Grand (Gen) get destabilized easily.


RE: Union (Speed) (Gen) Testing - AirKingNeo - Nov. 07, 2020

Ok ok, some mod change the thread name to just "Union (Gen) Testing and Discussion". I've decided to give Union Power mode a shot since Union Speed wasn't living up to expectations and Union Power seems pretty fine.

Union Power is a KO attacker layer with superb burst resistance from being able to use GT chips and the Gen layer weight, moderate stamina from its weight and OWD, but a shape that leaves some to be desired with somewhat inconsistent attacks. Its width makes it ineffective for LAD and its shape makes it ineffective as a mixed attacker. Think of the layer as similar to Twin Nemesis, but with less of its utility and more burst resistance.

These tests are actually kinda repeats of ones I did above, but this time one of them as context with comparison to other attack layers.

Union (Power) Ashura.00Expand.Destroy' Gen vs Alter Chronos.00Proof.Atomic
(UA launched second)
UA.00E.Ds' Gen: 3 wins (3 OS)
aC.00P.At: 7 wins (7 OS)
Ties: 0
Notes: Union doesn't have the stamina nor does Destroy have the attack power for this to work.
I also loosely tried using 00Bump.Charge' on Union Power against aC.00P.At, but it failed to do anything.

Attack Comparison Test
I tested a bunch of attack layers, trying to compare the experimental layers (Union Power, Buster Xcalibur, Flare) with the control layers (Sieg Xcalibur, Twin Nemesis) using Alter Chronos as the opponent, since Alter Chronos is a well known defense layer, but its lack in stamina can show the stamina potential of attack layers if they exist.

Twin Nemesis.00Bump.Quick' vs Alter Chronos.00Proof.Atomic
(tN launched second)
tN.00B.Qc': 4 wins (3 KO, 1 BF)
aC.00P.At: 6 wins (5 OS, 1 BF)
Ties: 1 (double burst)

Sieg Xcalibur.00Bump.Quick' vs Alter Chronos.00Proof.Atomic
(sX launched second)
sX.00B.Qc': 4 wins (3 KO, 1 BF)
aC.00P.At: 6 wins (5 OS, 1 KO)
Ties: 0

Buster Xcalibur.00Bump.Quick' vs Alter Chronos.00Proof.Atomic
(bX launched second)
bX.00B.Qc': 6 wins (4 KO, 2 BF)
aC.00P.At: 4 wins (4 OS)
Ties: 0

Union (Power) Ashura.00Bump.Quick' Gen vs Alter Chronos.00Proof.Atomic
(UA launched second)
UA.00B.Qc' Gen: 4 wins (1 OS, 3 BF)
aC.00P.At: 6 wins (6 OS)
Ties: 1

Flare Spriggan.00Bump.Quick' Gen vs Alter Chronos.00Proof.Atomic
(FS launched second)
FS.00B.Qc' Gen: 3 wins (2 OS, 1 KO)
aC.00P.At: 7 wins (7 OS)
Ties: 0



So yeah I overheard some people on committee didn't like the fact the rules for Union Speed mode only might be a little confusing, and would have preferred Power mode be allowed. Well, I think that would fine. I'd say tN is better for attack power (though there's the occasional burst risk), though I feel some people underestimate tN's ability to be used for KO attack.


RE: Union (Gen) Testing and Discussion [BSL] - Shindog - Dec. 25, 2020

Some additional Union Speed mode test:

(Speed mode)Union Diabolos.00D.X’ vs Monster Valkerie V5.00P.At-S

Union always launched 2nd.  Long Sparking Launcher R used.

(Diabolos was only used bc I am a bit lazy and it is my designated testing chip)
Union-7KOs. (70% win)
Monster-1OS. 2 Union self KOs. (30% win)
Video link below

https://youtu.be/NI2qsDX-6Es

Union Speed mode does seem to have good speed.