[LTD] Forbidden Discussion - Kujikato - Dec. 06, 2013
Limited Format Forbidden Discussion
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Thanks to TheBlackDragon for the title format :3
I'm loving the implications of the Limited Format!
Forbidden is too light for Defense, and has too much recoil for Stamina (Past experience). However, I find that Forbidden is like an offense minded Flame, the two lobes lumps on the wides help add smash. So, I'll mainly be testing LTAC or as a Attack-Destabilizer because I can't really see it doing well on higher tracks. It does look like a rounder, smaller, Flame-like Flash to me.
Beylauncher with Launcher Rubber on Launcher Grip with Grip Rubber, Grip Extension, Metal Assist, Angle Compass and BeyPointer,
Beylauncher L with Beylauncher Suspension on 3-Seg Launcher Grip with Grip Rubber and Grip Extension.
Launched at the same time, against my little brother (who is ranked #885) when noted.
A very long time ago, I once posted:
Kujikato Wrote:MF Forbidden Cancer 90 RF vs. MF-H Basalt Kerbecs 85 CS
Forbidden: 8/20 (7 KO 1 OS)
Basalt: 12/20 (3 KO 9 OS)
Forbidden win rate: 40%
Yes, I know that the Basalt combo is not the greatest thing ever, but hey, it's Basalt. So, since Limited basically gives Forbidden some room to shine due to the ban list, why not?
So...
MF(-L) Forbidden Cancer 90 RF
Forbidden and Cancer work really well together, in informal testing, I got much better movement with Cancer compared to Pegasus II, Libra, Aquila, Bull, Byxis and Orion. RF is a staple. MF(-L) depends on your need/tip. I got similar results on both, but I'm leaning to MF-L, mainly cause it looks so much better and helps speed the combo up, which Forbidden needs.
Update:
I am considering testing this with MF/FB as well, mainly because it can't make use of the destabilization it does. I'll test it if it has a consistent problem against tall Stamina and Defense.
Due to the really low win-rate this had against 230, I've decided to try a Metal Flat variant, FB doesn't have enough speed/control for this. Tests to follow.
MF Gravity Perseus R145 RF vs MF-H Earth Bull 90 CS
Perseus in right-spin. Calm CS. Worn RF with solid movement. Bull launched first on all launches.
Perseus: 14/20 (0 OS 14 KO)
Bull: 6/20 (5 OS 1 KO)
Perseus Win Rate: 70%
MF Gravity Perseus R145 RF vs MF-H Earth Bull GB145 CS
Perseus in right-spin. Calm CS. Worn RF with solid movement. Bull launched first on all launches.
Perseus: 13/20 (0 OS 13 KO)
Bull: 7/20 (7 OS 0 KO)
Perseus Win Rate: 65%
MF Gravity Perseus R145 RF vs MF-H Earth Bull 230 CS
Perseus in right-spin. Calm CS. Worn RF with solid movement. Bull launched first on all launches.
Perseus: 4/20 (0 OS 4 KO)
Bull: 16/20 (16 OS 0 KO)
Perseus Win Rate: 20%
Someone has to explain the 230 tests to me, I seriously don't understand them. The combo was being unscrewed, but it RARELY GOT KOed. T_T
Average Win Rate: 51.67% - Not bad, but the 230 tests...  
MF-L Forbidden Cancer 90 RF vs Earth Aquario 90 WD
Mint WD. Worn RF with solid movement. Aquario launched first on all launches.
Cancer: 9/10 (0 OS 9 KO)
Aquario: 1/10 (1 OS 0 KO)
Cancer Win Rate: 90%
MF-L Forbidden Cancer 90 RF vs Earth Aquario AD145 WD
Mint WD. Worn RF with solid movement. Aquario launched first on all launches.
Cancer: 10/10 (0 OS 10 KO)
Aquario: 0/10 (0 OS 0 KO)
Cancer Win Rate: 100%
Yep, Forbidden is tall enough to KO 145 stamina. The 9th round had this really nice KO where Aquario was smashed up at a 45 degree angle after being knocked to the tornado ridge at an exit. Beautiful KO.
MF-L Forbidden Cancer 90 RF vs Earth Aquario 230 D
Mint D. Worn RF with solid movement. Aquario launched first on all launches.
Cancer: 8/20 (0 OS 8 KO)
Aquario: 12/20 (12 OS 0 KO)
Cancer Win Rate: 40%
I expected this to be interesting since Forbidden is so low. It did pretty well, but it was mainly pushing Earth out, mostly Plastic on Metal contact. When Metal on Metal or a really hard hit occurred though, if there was no wall, Earth went flying. Destabilization was there, but on RF, Forbidden couldn't use it. MF or FB with a Metal Face might work on this.
MF-L Forbidden Cancer 90 RF vs MF-H Burn Cancer 90 WD
Mint WD. Worn RF with solid movement. Burn Cancer launched first on all launches.
Cancer: 10/10 (0 OS 10 KO)
Burn Cancer: 0/10 (0 OS 0 KO)
Cancer Win Rate: 100%
There was this awesome DKO on Burn, it was KOed, hit my pillow which was guarding my laptop, flew in again, and got KOed over the pillow. Awesome.
Total Average against Stamina Types: 82.5%
MF-L Forbidden Cancer 90 RF vs MF-H Earth Bull 90 CS
Calm CS. Worn RF with solid movement. Bull launched first on all launches.
Cancer: 10/20 (0 OS 10 KO)
Bull: 10/20 (9 OS 1 KO)
Ties: 1
Cancer Win Rate: 50%
TOO MUCH WALL SAVES, Forbidden should've gotten above 50%
MF-L Forbidden Cancer 90 RF vs MF-H Earth Bull GB145 CS
Calm CS. Worn RF with solid movement. Bull launched first on all launches.
Cancer: 15/20 (0 OS 15 KO)
Bull: 5/20 (5 OS 0 KO)
Cancer Win Rate: 75%
Solid metal on metal contact here, I really am certain of the presence of decent-great upper smash in Forbidden. Destabilization is present, really thinking about a non-rubber tip with MF-H for Forbidden. There was this nice KO, where it hit Earth, sent it stalling, then tapped it out right in front of a wall, it looked so much like a troll KO, "too slow mate!" It surprisingly had 7 KOs in a row, and 5 of those were not OHKOs, and then was stopped dead in it's tracks by a odd save from CS right before Earth got KOed.
Sadly, before I could do the 230 test, my CS went kinda aggro, so I'll wear it in and then do the 230 Tests, sorry! MY GB145 BROKE, NOT THE CS PERFECTLY ANNOYING.
On that note, my MF-H is now lose, so I'll be using a normal MF, sorry again!
MF-L Forbidden Cancer 90 RF vs MF Earth Bull 230 CS
Calm CS. Worn RF with solid movement. Bull launched first on all launches.
Cancer: 6/20 (0 OS 6 KO)
Bull: 14/20 (14 OS 0 KO)
Cancer Win Rate: 30%
This was honestly the worst matchup for Forbidden, but it did much better than I expected. If Forbidden landed a solid hit, sent Earth to the tornado ridge, then hit it while it was stalling, there was some nasty destabilization going on. I experienced some odd slowdowns on Forbidden, so I re-did matches when it happened (Slowdown count: 3), I kinda fixed it by wiping the stadium with my hand in the 14th round. It pulled a cool KO right after, slammed Earth against the wall, then Earth rolled out the exit on the other side. How this got better than Gravity, I have no clue.
Forbidden hits pretty darn hard. It's pretty capable at 2nd chance KOs. An OHKO is preferred, but it does a decent job of kicking out defenders in more than one hit. I think throwing some Stamina onto this would be somewhat like Burn or Phantom.
Average Win Rate against Earth Defense Variants: 51.67%
TBA
Forbidden Cancer 90 WD
Launched at max strength. Minimal movement at beginning, then settles into the middle.
1st: 03:34:00s
2nd: 02:29:40s
3rd: 03:02:20s
4th: 02:52:30s
5th: 03:01:70s
Average: 02:59.90s
So around 3 minutes, not bad, considering that a 5-min Virgo is rare.
Forbidden Cancer AD145 WD
Launched at max strength. Minimal movement at beginning, then settles into the middle.
1st: 02:48:90s
2nd: 03:00:77s
3rd: 02:59:44s
4th: 02:36:51s
5th: 02:22:91s
Average: 02:33:71s
Forbidden Cancer 230 D
Launched at max strength. Minimal movement at beginning, then settles into the middle.
1st: 02:00:31s
2nd: 02:18:41s
3rd: 02:11:18s
4th: 02:07:52s
5th: 02:08:58s
Average: 02:09:20s
These made no sense.
Average Solo Spin Time: 02:34:27s
Forbidden Cancer D125 WB vs Flame Cancer D125 WB
Forbidden launched first for first 10 rounds. Parts were switched after the 5th round. All combos launched at max.
Forbidden: 0/5 (0 OS 0 KO)
Flame: 5/5 (5 OS 0 KO)
-Switch-
Forbidden: 1/5 (0 OS 1 KO)
Flame: 4/5 (3 OS 1 KO)
Forbidden Win Rate: 10%
It has a fair share of recoil, like I said, it's more-than-optimal but still manageable on a flat, but not as much on a B series, D and S would be worse. It does have smash, as it pushed Flame back a bit more than it flew back itself. It was surprisingly destabilized a lot. And yeah, it has terrible stamina.
Forbidden Cancer D125 WB vs Earth Cancer D125 WB
Forbidden launched first for first 10 rounds. Parts were switched after the 5th round. All combos launched at max.
Forbidden: 0/5 (0 OS 0 KO)
Earth: 5/5 (5 OS 0 KO)
-Switch-
Forbidden: 0/5 (0 OS 0 KO)
Earth: 1/5 (1 OS 0 KO)
Forbidden Win Rate: 0%
Forbidden's recoil was really obvious, as it bounced off Earth whenever they collided.
Forbidden Cancer D125 WB vs Burn Cancer D125 WB
Forbidden launched first for first 10 rounds. Parts were switched after the 5th round. All combos launched at max.
Forbidden: 0/5 (0 OS 0 KO)
Burn: 0/5 (0 OS 0 KO)
-Switch-
Forbidden: 0/5 (0 OS 0 KO)
Burn: 0/5 (0 OS 0 KO)
Forbidden Win Rate: ??%
I was going to continue, then I figured:
It's recoil is present, we can't deny that.
It's losing every damn battle.
Why am I testing?
I don't have access to RSF, TH170, W145 or newer parts, so sorry bout that. Please, do test away, it's always appreciated.
Tests not done in order.
MWs
L-Drago
Pegasus
Pisces
Wolf
Earth 3x
Burn
Lightning L-Drago I 3x
Meteo 2x L-Drago II (Assault and Absorb)
Galaxy
Storm 2x
Ray
Forbidden
Rock (3x)
Gravity 3x (1 is all smooth, 2 are normal Gravitys) Perseus (Defense and Attack, my Stamina is cracked)
Screw
Flame 2x
And of course...
DARK 3x!
CWs:
Byxis
Cancer 2x
Bull 2x
Aquario 2x
Kerbecs 3x
Eagle/Aquila 2x
Libra
Wolf 2x
Capricorn 2x
Pegasus I 2x
Pegasus II
Zurafa
Leone
Orion
Phoenix
Unicorno
Horogium/Tempo
Tracks:
85 (damaged)
90 6x (sweg)
100 4x
105 6x
W105 2x
LW105
CH120 3x
125 4x
D125 2x
T125 4x
130
135
145 7x
DF145 3x
ED145 2x
GB145 It broke during testing.
SW145
UW145
AD145 3x
M145 
230
D: D 2x
B: D
Bottoms:
F
HF 4x
FS 4x
SF 2x
MF 2x
FB
WF 4x
XF
RF 3x
LRF
R2F
WD 7x
D 3x
SD
DS 2x
CS 3x
S 2x
MS
WB 2x
RE: [LTD] Forbidden Discussion - Thunder Dome - Dec. 06, 2013
Forbidden seems very interesting to me and could potentially lead up to something very good and useful for the Limited format if used correctly. Although I currently have no experience with Forbidden because I do not own one myself (No idea why Hasbro had it out in stores for months), but the tests looks pretty promising to me. Hopefully we will get more inputs and tests on this because it seems pretty cool.
RE: [LTD] Forbidden Discussion - MacDuff - Dec. 06, 2013
The Attack Tests really suprised me; 40%, WOW.
I think Forbidden needs some Tornado Staller tests, though it may not do so good, unless your Forbidden isn't as loose as mine.
RE: [LTD] Forbidden Discussion - Kujikato - Dec. 06, 2013
Update:
Added Pictures to OP
Due to the really low win-rate this had against 230 and the inability to OS when it was close, I've decided to try a Metal Flat variant, a CH120 variant, and a FB variant. Tests to follow.
Thunder Dome
It is really interesting, I really think it's a baby Flash, like, premature baby. Tests would really be needed
Striker Phantom
I'll try some Tornado Stall tests, using FB and MF. My Forbidden isn't loose, yours much be a manufacturing flaw 
Are you referring to the Basalt test? Yeah, I really was surprised by that too.
RE: [LTD] Forbidden Discussion - MacDuff - Dec. 06, 2013
(Dec. 06, 2013 10:20 PM)Kujikato Wrote: Update:
Added Pictures to OP
Due to the really low win-rate this had against 230 and the inability to OS when it was close, I've decided to try a Metal Flat variant, a CH120 variant, and a FB variant. Tests to follow.
Nice.
Obviously for MF, use W145MF
For a CH120 variant, I guess CH120MF would be suffice
For FB(which I really love), try W145FB. Also TR145FB; I wanna see how mix works.
RE: [LTD] Forbidden Discussion - Ocean - Dec. 06, 2013
I once had it and it had hgh recoil. Should only be used with Rubber tips.
RE: [LTD] Forbidden Discussion - Kujikato - Dec. 06, 2013
MF would help hold it down a bit. Forbidden doesn't have super high recoil, just a more-than-optimal amount. I also LOVE FB, and I've been trying to find a usage for it (hint: I've found one in Lefty).
I'll be doing:
Recoil Test (Mirror matchups)
90 MF 2x (one for KO, other for OS)
90 FB 2x (one for KO, other for OS)
CH120 RF
CH120 MF 2x (one for KO, other for OS)
CH120 FB 2x (one for KO, other for OS)
In that order
Because... I sadly don't have W145 or TR145 (it's in the OP)
Though I think TR145 wouldn't help it much, mainly because it would be too tall and obstruct it's contact points on the underside of the wheel (the overhanging lobe). W145 would be very interesting though.
RE: [LTD] Forbidden Discussion - MacDuff - Dec. 06, 2013
(Dec. 06, 2013 10:34 PM)Kujikato Wrote: MF would help hold it down a bit. Forbidden doesn't have super high recoil, just a more-than-optimal amount. I also LOVE FB, and I've been trying to find a usage for it (hint: I've found one in Lefty).
I'll be doing:
Recoil Test (Mirror matchups)
90 MF 2x (one for KO, other for OS)
90 FB 2x (one for KO, other for OS)
CH120 RF
CH120 MF 2x (one for KO, other for OS)
CH120 FB 2x (one for KO, other for OS)
In that order
Because... I sadly don't have W145 or TR145 (it's in the OP)
Though I think TR145 wouldn't help it much, mainly because it would be too tall and obstruct it's contact points on the underside of the wheel (the overhanging lobe). W145 would be very interesting though.
Be sure to report back as soon as possible.
Huh...How about SR200(I'm really just throwing random stuff at you)?
RE: [LTD] Forbidden Discussion - Kujikato - Dec. 06, 2013
IDK, lolz.
It wouldn't be heavy enough for a track that tall. I've tried it on 230, and it just.. fails.
I'm testing atm.
EDIT: MF or FB don't work on Forbidden, mainly because Forbidden 1. is too light 2. doesn't have enough smash to KO without a rubber tip. That being said, I'll try to test CH120 starting next week, leaving on a trip tomorrow.
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