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+-- Forum: Beyblade Discussion (https://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-Beyblade-Discussion)
+--- Forum: Beyblade Customizations (https://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-Beyblade-Customizations)
+---- Forum: Metal Fight Limited Customizations (https://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-Metal-Fight-Limited-Customizations)
+---- Thread: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16) (/Thread-MFB-Limited-Ban-List-Discussion-v1-5-9-20-16)
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Kaneki - Feb. 01, 2014
Or in another code: SA165+RDF Unbanned=Broken Game, You'll cry the rest of your life ect.
TBH, why would you suggest it's ban in the first place, haha. I'm pretty sure this was well known. Or would you prefer I make a RDF and SA165 Discussion to show why it needs to stay locked away?
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - RDF3 - Feb. 02, 2014
@"L": You probably should anyway.
Seriously, RDF and SA165 would end Limited, I agree with TBD, Th!nk, and "L" on that. RDF shuts out ANYTHING spinning in the other direction, and SA165 has an insane weight of 6,18 grams [From Beywiki anyway](only 2g lighter than BD145, which is still the heaviest track even today)and IS A PLASTIC DISK so most Limited attackers would bounce off it.
Even worse, these two work so well together that MF-H MLD SA165RDF would be a nightmare to Limited.
Trust me, DON'T UNBAN THESE TWO. LIKE EVER.
(Mind me though, this is my first post in Limited, so forgive my not-so-knowledegeable posting)
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Anyway, has anyone looked into Fusion yet?
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - [)ragon - Feb. 02, 2014
Fushion's broke bro.
MF-H Fusion Aquario 85RB... scary stuff.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 02, 2014
You'v tried it and it wrecked all the things? If so, I will make a note on my "WHY IS THIS BANNED" thing.
As for testing RDF/SA165, I honestly wouldn't bother, at least for the time being. There are various legal parts that could have potential (Gryph, for example) which haven't been looked into. If someone really wants something unbanned and has tests to back it up (with relevant combinations, of course) then they can post them and we can look at it, but for the rest of us, it's more relevant to test things that are legal - heck, even things that are legal but not very good would be good to have numbers on for the sake of checking/updating beywiki etc. I'm working on a testing requests thread that should be up in the next couple of days (taking me longer than expected to format various things and clean up the wording - having trouble getting work done atm for some reason), too, so that should hopefully give more direction etc.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - TenshouTsubasa - Feb. 07, 2014
It's a long time that I haven't login into WBO, sadly all my old stuff are gone.
(If you don't know who I am, my name originally is Meteo L-drago and Tenshouyoku, but for some reasons I cannot login.)
Just want to ask, why ban almost all 4D wheels?
I know some wheels are game-breaking, such as Phantom, but some wheels that sucks very well (such as Fang and Big Bang, or known as Cosmic in Hasbro) should be unbanned because they don't even worth to be banned.
I know, 4D wheels are freakin' heavy or large and stuff (such as the crazy Diablo as an example), but is it necessary to ban all of them? during the times when Big Bang, L-drago Destroy and some of them are out they are considered low-teir (especially even the Beywiki states BBP as not worthwhile to buy) by a number of tests, and the results shouldn't differ too much due to the fact that beys get stronger and stronger for each release.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - TenshouTsubasa - Feb. 07, 2014
Ooh, I'm finally back. I suddenly happen to remember passwords and the exact account.
Continue about the comment towards the ban list, I actually never thought about it.
When the synchrome thing gets into my eyes, I nearly immediately quit Beyblade as I knew they are overpowered due to their immense weight which would be made impossible to be beaten by 4D attackers.
I'm pretty glad that synchrome are banned!
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Angry Face - Feb. 07, 2014
(Feb. 07, 2014 11:44 AM)Burn Phoenix Wrote: It's a long time that I haven't login into WBO, sadly all my old stuff are gone.
(If you don't know who I am, my name originally is Meteo L-drago and Tenshouyoku, but for some reasons I cannot login.)
Just want to ask, why ban almost all 4D wheels?
I know some wheels are game-breaking, such as Phantom, but some wheels that sucks very well (such as Fang and Big Bang, or known as Cosmic in Hasbro) should be unbanned because they don't even worth to be banned.
I know, 4D wheels are freakin' heavy or large and stuff (such as the crazy Diablo as an example), but is it necessary to ban all of them? during the times when Big Bang, L-drago Destroy and some of them are out they are considered low-teir (especially even the Beywiki states BBP as not worthwhile to buy) by a number of tests, and the results shouldn't differ too much due to the fact that beys get stronger and stronger for each release.
Th!nk does a fine job explaining the sentiment behind every 4D Metal Wheel's ban here. In a metagame without Basalt, the Wheels you mentioned would be pretty OP, ha ha.
Spoiler (Click to View)
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - TenshouTsubasa - Feb. 07, 2014
(Feb. 07, 2014 1:23 PM)ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) Wrote:(Feb. 07, 2014 11:44 AM)Burn Phoenix Wrote: It's a long time that I haven't login into WBO, sadly all my old stuff are gone.
(If you don't know who I am, my name originally is Meteo L-drago and Tenshouyoku, but for some reasons I cannot login.)
Just want to ask, why ban almost all 4D wheels?
I know some wheels are game-breaking, such as Phantom, but some wheels that sucks very well (such as Fang and Big Bang, or known as Cosmic in Hasbro) should be unbanned because they don't even worth to be banned.
I know, 4D wheels are freakin' heavy or large and stuff (such as the crazy Diablo as an example), but is it necessary to ban all of them? during the times when Big Bang, L-drago Destroy and some of them are out they are considered low-teir (especially even the Beywiki states BBP as not worthwhile to buy) by a number of tests, and the results shouldn't differ too much due to the fact that beys get stronger and stronger for each release.
Th!nk does a fine job explaining the sentiment behind every 4D Metal Wheel's ban here. In a metagame without Basalt, the Wheels you mentioned would be pretty OP, ha ha.
Spoiler (Click to View)
Wow, so much of being outdated.
It's funny to see that the wheels we originally announced as 'sucks' would now be overpowered. I've never imagined that the day for the protogaonist's bey's metal wheels would be THAT OP as well.
And, thanks for caring about me. I finall recalled all of my memory about here and sucessfully logged in.
There is, however, something that I want to ask:Why banning a single piece instead of a customization?
Probably some wheels really dominates a lot of Beyblade, but a single piece doesn't always mean anything. You won't put a tall-tower track on Lighting L-drago, neither you will put R2F on Libra except for niche customs.
The reasons for some wheels to be banned is obvious: Basalt, is a complete catastrophe when it hits beyblade, since nearly every customization works for it, and VariAres is simply too powerful on its own. But for some wheels, is it possible to limit its strongest variation possible?
The old guys, such as Pegasis (The oldest form) probably could never hit the metagame anymore, due to beys getting even more powerful as I aforementioned. This is how the trend goes. But by lowering the power of existing bey customizations, such as banning some customs that are clearly overpowered like Hell Kerbecs 230 CS, lefting only weaker versions to exist, I believe that this will encourage bladers to reuse the old pals, someday we'll see the old beys fighting with the newer beys on the stadium.
I'm sure ban lists' existances are for fair play and encourage players to use stuff that are overlooked by them, this is common for every games on Earth. However, if whether possible, I strongly believe that banning clearly game-breaking parts and customs would do better than banning parts alone, to both boost variating parts customization possible and encourage old parts reusing.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - 6 God - Feb. 07, 2014
Well one reason,
Parts like Gravity, Hell/Hades, SA165, BD145, are banned because of their extreme versatitlity; the listed parts have use in nearly every way, which isn't what limited is about.
If you ban something like Gravity F230CF, you can still use something like Gravity TR145R2F, and it will still be useful, so its better to ban the part instead of having just a custom banned. Plus you can just switch the track of TR145 to R145, and it will be the nearly just as good .
The point of Limited is to give something a chance, that normally wouldn't be good, it helps to ban wheels altogether so there's more room for testing other things and more use of other parts.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Kaneki - Feb. 07, 2014
Hey, welcome back!
Anyway, there's no point in banning a custom:
1: It could make trouble when at a tournament.
2: Even if you ban a custom, there's always something else that could take it's place. Like: Say you ban Burn W145WD. Earth W145WD will take over. Then if you end up banning them both. Then your W145 and WD would be useless.
3: We tend to look at how parts work in official play. Gravity was getting banned due to to much tournament play and it was winning most of the tournaments. RDF and SA165 have to stay banned 'cause even without a Metal Wheel, they can still be pretty OP. All you'd see is: Meteo L Drago SA165RDF, ect. There's also a lot of different Tracks and Tips to switch with those parts.
4: That's the hole part of Limited.
Pegasis is still used. TBH, it still get's good numbers and we're considering it for a Limited list.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - TenshouTsubasa - Feb. 07, 2014
(Feb. 07, 2014 2:17 PM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote: Well one reason,
One of the reasons parts are banned because of their extreme versatitlity.
If you ban something like Gravity F230CF, you can still use something like Gravity D125GCF. Plus you can just switch the track of D125 and it will be the nearly just as good.
The point of Limited is to give something a chance, that normally wouldn't be good, it helps to ban wheels altogether so there's more room for testing other things and more use of other parts.
No. so my point is something that would be too strong for any combo deserves to be banned, like now the Gravity and the whatsoever BD145.
But for wheels that isn't really that good except in certain combos (sorry no examples, I just can't remember one!), banning those combos should be better than kick them into the banlist would be better.
Suddenely I found out that we've gone back to times where Hell Kerbecs still didn't even exists, lol
(Feb. 07, 2014 2:23 PM)" L Wrote: Hey, welcome back!
Anyway, there's no point in banning a custom:
1: It could make trouble when at a tournament.
2: Even if you ban a custom, there's always something else that could take it's place. Like: Say you ban Burn W145WD. Earth W145WD will take over. Then if you end up banning them both. Then your W145 and WD would be useless.
3: We tend to look at how parts work in official play. Gravity was getting banned due to to much tournament play and it was winning most of the tournaments. RDF and SA165 have to stay banned 'cause even without a Metal Wheel, they can still be pretty OP. All you'd see is: Meteo L Drago SA165RDF, ect. There's also a lot of different Tracks and Tips to switch with those parts.
4: That's the hole part of Limited.
Pegasis is still used. TBH, it still get's good numbers and we're considering it for a Limited list.
What is limited? Because I see a banlist but not a limited list, so limited list is something like that it can be only used once during a match?
for some points:
1. It won't actually create much problems. This is like Yu-Gi-Oh! games, where you are responsible to know which cards are banned and stuff, similarly you are responsible to know which combos are too strong to be used.
2. Parts are likely to be irreplaceable (well, IMO). Yeah, maybe Burn and Earth behave similarly in Stamina comparations, but Burn and Earth are so different in shape where it can change the whole game. This is why banning combos are better, such as banning Burn W145 WD instead of Burn itself, as Burn can be used as an attacker with 90 RF and Earth used as a previous defensive part. Besides, even both combos are banned, sometime somebody may come up with an another combo.
3. I agree with you about that. Afterall some parts are too strong to exist.
4.No comment.
About PEgasis, sorry I just came with something randomly.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Tri - Feb. 07, 2014
Spoiler (Click to View)
Okay I'm done with that.
Those parts considering there weight in even the most mediocre combos might dominant. That's why we discus on banning parts.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - TenshouTsubasa - Feb. 07, 2014
(Feb. 07, 2014 2:30 PM)PRO SEAGULL Wrote:It all changed when Hell Kerbeca attacked. Only the bey master, master of all types could stop it, but when the world needed him most, he started using Hell Kerbecs as well. A couple months or so passed and the bey master discovered a new attack wheel, Blitz.Spoiler (Click to View)
Okay I'm done with that.
Those parts considering there weight in even the most mediocre combos might dominant. That's why we discus on banning parts.
I am not doubting about the importance of banning overpowered parts.
But some parts that are not as good under certain conditions(customs) should deserve a ban on CUSTOMS instead of the PART itself.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Kaneki - Feb. 07, 2014
Spoiler (Click to View)
"The winner is (who never lost any matches) Meteo L Drago SA165RDF!
Well from that you could see certain parts need to be banned. Not a combo itself. Meteo L Drago CH120EWD could lose to more attack types and others. There as giving a fair game.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - TenshouTsubasa - Feb. 07, 2014
*facepalm* I think you probably misunderstood my comment. I mean some parts deserved to be banned such as SA165, which pretty make beys into cheeseburgers and tough to defeat, but some not so decent can allow to be unbanned but the combo makes it banned should be banned instead.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Kaneki - Feb. 07, 2014
1: Don't "*facepalm*" me.
2: I don't get what you're saying.
OK, so if we unbanned, lets say... RDF. It would pretty much be used in Defense and Spin-Stealing. So after we ban the combos it's good on, what do you end up with... A pretty useless part and they'd be no use in unbanning it in the first place. OK, maybe Earth wouldn't be to OP with it, but, it would end up losing more and people wouldn't use it. Same pretty much goes for any parts.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - [)ragon - Feb. 07, 2014
Banning specific combinations is far too complicated to consider. A list that long, constantly seeing updates, would be virtually impossible to understand/navigate, let alone maintain. It's just far too complicated (I also don't think you fully realize how many specific combinations we would have to illegalize if we were to unban Hell, SA165 and/or RDF. They're all so incredibly versatile, the ban list for customs utilizing them would probably match/surpass the tier list in size).
Plus, as "L" stated, banning the combinations said parts perform well in would be completely pointless, as the parts themselves would become useless anyway, and unbanning them was ultimately inconsequential.
We've actually been looking into what you've proposed. Jade's legality is currently under/pending discussion in the advanced forum for the March update. However, it will probably be the only 4D wheel we see legalized, since most/all others obviously throw off the balance of the game (IE Kreis, which was extremely inferior to other options in the day of its release, would completely wreck the Defense meta in this format. Likewise, though Big Bang was also inferior in its time, its massive bulk, low recoil and high smash would most likely turn it into an unstoppable tank in this environment).
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 08, 2014
Banning combinations instead of parts won't happen because it makes banlists too complex for hosts and attendees. It won't happen, and there is no point arguing about it. TenshouYoko, I suggest you take the time to read the Limited Format Primer and various other stickied threads in this subforum before you continue to post, too, seeing as you didn't even seem to understand what Limited format (the basis of this entire subforum) was before you posted...
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Kaneki - Feb. 14, 2014
::Jade::
I'm here to talk about unbanning Jade. Let's go over some stuff I posted in Jade Discussion:
(Feb. 13, 2014 10:09 PM)The Alchemist Wrote: Okay people, I'm back! There's been some things I've been wanting to say:
1 I'm ready for Jade to be up and playing. Judging from my results, it doesn't seem that game breaking. It's really at the same level as any attack wheel. Main reason, it does seem to have recoil. Some scraping problems, but it should be able to land an KO fast. However, I'm sure Limited has some good defense to keep this at 50/50.
2 One other problem I think we are gonna have with unbanning it: We seem to have lack of tests. I know my tests are solid, but it's always safe to make sure. It would help in terms of unbanning Jade. I try my best to test. I don't see the point in me testing this anymore, as I've pretty much covered most I can.
Thanks TheBlackDragon for your tests. I appreciate them.
3 Guys, this thing will get most results whilst in Defense Mode. So keep that in mind while testing. I did all my test in this most. I would like to see some tests in the other mode though, just to be safe.
There is some points. Jade doesn't really have much stamina. It also suffers from high recoil. However, it does seem to have a good chance of a powerful KO, but nothing big as to stay banned. From my testing, this thing only works best in Defense Mode. I also found CH120RF to be a good custom that might make the list. Still it's nothing to be to worried about.
Fake tests (Click to View)
This really isn't that great. Some of those tests, Jade was very close to losing. As I've said before: Recoil and Stamina is it's downfall. I also found you must choose a good CW for this (though I'll get into that soon.)
Jade also does really well on LTAC from my testing (not so much good on MHAC.)
OVERALL: Jade by no means should stay banned. IT's not one of those "OHH, OHH, OHH, THIS IS SO BROKEN!!" It's not, haha.
So does anyone agree.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 14, 2014
I think we're just waiting for the banlist update to unban it, though I'm not sure why it didn't happen this month - I'm still totally in the dark about whether or not we have a schedule (and I think this illustrates why we need one, tbh) so there's not much I or anyone aside from staff can do right now. I'm all for it for reasons stated in the Jade discussion thread, personally, and I don't think anyone has actually opposed the unban so it seems pretty straightforward to me
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - Kaneki - Feb. 14, 2014
I just saw the Official Limited Ban List Discussion. There really doesn't seem to be any order in it. I know people are busy with there life's, but I think Limited is becoming "unstable". There's no talk going on and it breaks my heart to see nothing happening. If I was there, I'd be doing everything for Limited. I'm up for Monthly Banns. Like: March 1st, April 1st ect. We get an month to think about things. I believe this was the original plan.
We could start with Jade on March 1st, but I don't see any talk. Really, it kinda annoys me, haha. I do however respect that people have life's outside of the WBO.
I've only see you th!nk still keeping Limited going.
I'd like to state we take some action soon, otherwise, we're gonna end up passing next month. Then the way I see it, Limited will fall apart.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 14, 2014
It's mostly that everyone else is busy with this or that, generally with good reason (whereas for me, most of what I'm busy with is beyblade-related anyway right now) and you have to remember that the committee have to prepare things for BeyDays etc too, so it's not like they're slacking or intentionally ignoring Limited (anyway, I think Limited has had more than its fair share of drama for a while, haha).
As for the original plan w/ regards to update schedules, the discussion was never really resolved - another thing sorta left hanging. There are a lot of factors involved, though, particularly the aforementioned people-being-busy, and for various reasons there's not really much that can be done about that, so we just have to be patient.
Limited will survive unattended longer than that, thanks to its strength as a competitive format, so I would not panic. I think the drop in activity is mostly due to school resuming (though the time it's taking me to do the testing requests thread probably isn't helping, as once that's up we might have some extra direction etc for testing and so on). Obviously I'd prefer the place to be more active but I don't think things are so bad.
Anyway, I'm fairly confident something will be done before March 1 - nothing to go on, of course, but Jade is a pretty clear-cut case.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - [)ragon - Feb. 14, 2014
Yah, I think it's mostly just because Ingulit and Kei are off somewhere right now, haha. Nothing really gets done without them. Hopefully, once their schedules calm down a bit we'll see a Standard tier list update and a ban list update.
Now, we have an enormous problem that we completely overlooked concerning F230CF/GCF combinations.
Hasbro's Metal Fury VariAres. I just realized this morning, that we still have a perfectly viable dual-spin MW that works with F230. Luckily, it's significantly easier to KO than Gravity in most cases. Lighting can still do it. Cosmic and Beat have a little bit of trouble if it's launched extremely weakly in the center in left-rotation (Beat can usually take it down).
This was where my proposal to ban CF/GCF came from. There are so many different potential setups to be tested with F230, we really don't know what'll come up. Turns out, we missed a big one. This thing stomps the entire Defense/Stamina meta easily. Although it is noticeably easier to KO than Gravity, its stamina prowess is far too glaring an issue to leave undiscussed. Gravity F230 wasn't banned for its resistance to Attack types anyway. It was based off its unbelievable Stamina applications for the most part. I don't consider it blatantly broken, given its Defense is low against mid-height Attack types, but it's still definitely worrying.
I honestly can't believe none of us thought of this sooner, LOL. We need more testing, but from my informal experience something really needs to be done about. To top it all off, some Gravity spin-equalizers (Gravity B : D/TR145EWD specifically) that could've stopped it are now illegal, hah.
Out of the frying pan, and into the fire.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 14, 2014
I considered it, but assumed Hasbro's Variares had far too much recoil and too little stamina to be viable on that setup, especially as no one else said anything. Is that really not the case?
We also had Tornado Stallers that worked against the gravity version, and Scythe aside, MF Rock Kerbecs 85MF (0 Cylinder Rock) is a very viable combo, but I don't have my F230 yet so I can't say if it would have worked against that or not.
If it is a problem, well, it will be interesting to see how those in charge of the decision react, at least.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion - [)ragon - Feb. 14, 2014
It's certainly a viable spin-equalizer, yah. Works phenomenally, actually. It's Stamina shouldn't effect anything really (RDF is competitive spin-equalizing material in Standard). Lemme go give it a quick, go...
Whoa, that's super weird. It's not working now. It's toppling too far up the slope to make contact. That's certainly strange... hmmm.
That wasn't happening before... huh. Maybe 'twas a fluke of some sort. If other people are getting results like that, that's certainly a relief. Guess I was just having bad luck or something. It shredded whatever I put up against it the other day.
Yah, it's definitely not working anymore. Earth Cancer145WD is winning pretty consistently (only by a half rotation or two, but still).
Haha, awkward. XD That was legit wierd. Hopefully this is "normal" behavior," and not a fluke itself. Someone else with this thing should tests it out quick to make sure I'm not doing something wrong, because this doesn't look like what it was doing earlier this week.
EDIT: BTW, I second the motion on unbanning Jade. The thing is so risky to use, I myself probably wouldn't even consider using it in most situations. It definitely isn't going to be a problem.