Gargole Dragooon BD145EDS - KainHighwind - Oct. 12, 2012
Recent disussions about the top tier updates brought up the defensive stamina combination of BD145EDS. I decided to revisit that idea, and see how it worked with synchroms since they have a little bit of natural defense because of their weight. The goal with this combo is to have somewhat of a stamina combo that can actually hold its own against attack types.
Regular Stone Face: I am still experimenting with different stone face weights so this very well could change.
Dragooon: Obviously it is heavy and spins left. This gives the added bonus of being able to weak launch which helps tremendously against attack types.
Gargole: In some recent tests it has seemed to me that Gargole gives Flash an extremely hard time. It seems to absorb a lot more of Flash’s smash than any other wheel I have seen. If Flash only makes contact with Gargole or BD145 then you should have the match won. Gargole also fits Dragooon extremely well. When they are synchromed they line up almost perfect.
BD145: Defense, Defense, Defense
EDS: This combined with BD145 has had its success in the past. I decided to revisit the idea, and it has worked great with this set up. It is tall enough to not scrape under normal conditions, and its shape does not allow for much tilt when hit, which is great because tilt is the last thing you want with BD145. I have also noticed that once synchroms lose enough spin to start tilting, contact with a non-synchrom opponent will not straighten it back up easily. It is crucial in an opposite spin battle to not be the one tilting at the end and EDS really helps with this.
Against right spin opponents (except Gravity) launch at about 30%- 50%. Against left spin opponents launch closer to full power. With the weight of this synchrom, EDS can get a little out of control if launched too hard, but I have yet to self KO because of it going out of control. As long as you can keep a fairly straight launch you shouldn't have to worry too much about it getting out of control. Against Gravity in left spin, I was able to launch at 50% and still win. However, I am sure against other Dragooon combos and possibly LDD/LDG combos you might want stick to launching closer to full power.
Tests:
All tests were in a BB-10
Beylauncher with launcher rubber
Beylauncher L with launcher rubber
MF-Flash Scorpio GB145R2F(prime) vs. MSF-Saramanda Reviser BD145CS(calm)
Flash – 10 wins (all KO)
Reviser – 10 wins (9 OS, 1 KO)
1 DKO that was redone
Flash win % = 50%
Gargole Dragooon BD145EDS vs. MF-Gravity Destroyer BD145RDF(right spin)
Gravity was in counter mode, and is the one from the Gravity Demolition 2 pack
Gravity launched first on odd, Dragooon on even
Gravity launched at 100%
Dragooon launched at 30 to 50% for first 10 rounds, at 100% for last 10
1)Dragooon – OS
Tie
2)Dragooon – OS
3)Dragooon – OS
Tie
4)Dragooon – OS
5)Gravity – OS
6)Dragooon – OS
Tie
7)Dragooon – OS
Tie
Tie
8)Dragooon – OS
Tie
Tie
9)Gravity – OS (by half a rotation)
10)Dragooon – OS
Tie
11)Dragooon – OS (Started launching Dragooon at 100% on this round)
12)Dragooon – OS
13)Dragooon – OS
14)Dragooon – OS
15)Dragooon – OS
16)Dragooon – OS
17)Dragooon – OS (bad launch and Dragooon tornado stalled like crazy! But still won easily)
18)Dragooon – KO (after a few hits Dragooon got knocked a little off balance, went crazy and sent Gravity flying)
19)Dragooon – OS
20)Dragooon – OS
Gravity – 2 wins (all OS)
8 ties, all redone
Gargole Dragooon win % = 90%
I was just going to do 10 rounds because the ties were getting ridiculous, but then I decided to try launching Dragooon at 100%. Apparently I should have done that from the start. It seems one of the biggest advantage Dragooon has here is that Gravity is making most of its contact with BD145 when it comes down to the spin equalizing battle at the end. One thing I have to say about Gravity is that it has this crazy ability to seem like it is still spinning when all of its own spin is gone. It will literally be resting on RDF’s edge and letting Dragooon spin it, giving the illusion that it is still in the battle. It is not stealing or equalizing spin, it is stationary and is not spinning on its own. This is hard to explain, but I really wish that I could make a video and get someone to tell me whether Gravity would be considered still in play or not. FYI, in spite of this illusion, I still did not consider Dragooon the winner unless Gravity was clearly not spinning, but this would have eliminated almost every tie that happened.
Gravity was in counter mode, and is the one from the Gravity Demolition 2 pack
Gravity launched first on odd, Dragooon on even
Gravity launched at 100%
Dragooon launched at 30 to 50% for first 5 rounds, at 100% for last 5.
1)Dragooon - OS
2)Dragooon - OS
3)Dragooon - OS
4)Dragooon - OS
5)Dragooon - OS
6)Dragooon - OS (started launching Dragooon at 100% on this round)
7)Dragooon - OS
8)Dragooon - OS
9)Dragooon - OS
10)Dragooon - OS
Gravity - 0 wins
Gargole Dragooon win % - 100%
Why did I weak launch against a same spin direction opponent you ask? Well, for 2 reasons....to see if you are paying attention....and to show off. :-) Seriously though, I am pretty sure these results were expected because it is basically a stamina combo beating a defense combo, but on the off chance Gravity could disrupt Dragooon in same spin I went ahead and tested it.
I would love someone to test against other Dragooon combos, as well as, LDD/LDG BD145MF.
Gargole Dragooon BD145EDS vs. MF-Flash Scorpio GB145R2F(prime)
Dragooon launched first at 30%
1)Dragooon - OS
2)Dragooon - OS
3)Dragooon - OS (wall save)
4)Flash - KO
5)Flash - KO
6)Dragooon - OS
7)Dragooon - OS
8)Flash - KO
9)Dragooon - OS
10)Flash - KO
11)Dragooon - OS
12)Dragooon - OS (wall save)
13)Dragooon - OS
14)Dragooon - KO
15)Dragooon - OS (wall save)
16)Dragooon - OS
17)Flash - KO
18)Dragooon - OS
19)Flash - KO
20)Flash - KO
21)Dragooon - OS
22)Dragooon - OS
23)Dragooon - KO (wall save)
24)Flash - KO
25)Dragooon - OS
26)Flash - KO
27)Dragooon - OS
28)Dragooon - KO
29)Flash - KO
30)Dragooon - OS
31)Dragooon - OS
32)Dragooon - OS
33)Dragooon - KO (wall save)
34)Dragooon - OS
35)Flash - KO
36)Dragooon - OS (wall save)
37)Flash - KO
38)Dragooon - OS
39)Flash - KO
40)Dragooon - OS
Flash - 13 wins (all KO)
Gargole Dragooon win % = 67%
I am anticipating catching a bunch of carp over these tests. That is why I went ahead and did 40 tests, and also the reason I recorded wall saves. If you were to count wall saves as KOs, that still puts Gargole Dragooon at 53% win %. These results are again thanks to Gargole and weak launching. With EDS being such a tall tip it puts Gargole high enough to make it Flash's main contact. The KOs happened when either Flash would get a 100% full power hit right off the bat, or when Gargole Dragooon was tilted towards Flash allowing Flash to make contact with Dragooon. Also, if you launch any harder than 50%, you have a much greater chance of getting KOed. For anyone that does doubt these tests, I am going to do a quick 10 rounds with Flash on 160 to compare the KOs.
Dragooon launched first at 30%
1)Flash - KO
2)Flash - KO
3)Dragooon - OS
4)Dragooon - KO
5)Flash - KO
6)Dragooon - OS
7)Flash - KO
8)Flash - KO
9)Dragooon - OS
10)Flash - KO
Dragooon - 5 wins (3 OS, 1 KO)
Gargole Dragooon win % = 50%
Flash had a little easier time here, but these are still really good results for EDS vs attack. The biggest reason I can come up with for why EDS isn't flying out of the stadium easily is that it gets aggressive when Gargole Dragooon takes a hard hit and that is a lot of weight to throw back at Flash. With all that said, I hope this is enough evidence to prove the tests are legit.
Gargole Dragooon BD145EDS vs. Duo(stamina) Aquario 230D
Duo launched first on odd, Dragooon launched first on even
Dragooon launched at 30%-50%
1)Dragooon - OS
2)Dragooon - OS
3)Dragooon - OS
4)Dragooon - OS
5)Dragooon - OS
6)Dragooon - OS (swapped to a different D tip on this round)
7)Dragooon - OS
8)Dragooon - OS
9)Dragooon - OS
10)Dragooon - OS
Duo - 0 wins
Gargole Dragooon win % = 100%
Not much to say here, Duo really didn't have a chance so I kept it at 10 rounds. Every win was very clear, and Dragooon had plenty of rotations left. You can launch at full power here and still win, but you have more of a chance of EDS going crazy. It is just safer to weak launch. I did do a few informal tests where I weak launched Duo to see how that would affect results, and it still didn't help Duo at all.
Duo launched first on odd, Dragooon launched first on even
Dragooon launched at 30%-50%
1)Duo - OS
Tie
2)Duo - OS
3)Duo - OS
Tie
4)Duo - OS
5)Duo - OS
Tie
6)Duo - OS
Tie
7)Duo - OS
8)Duo - OS
Tie
9)Duo - OS
Tie
Tie
10)Duo - OS
Duo - 10 wins (all OS)
7 ties, all redone
Gargole Dragooon win % = 0%
I did not expect this at all. This was very painful to watch because of all the ties, and the fact that Duo only won by a half to one rotation. If I could just find a way to squeeze 2 more rotations out of Dragooon. Duo just had the better balance at the end. This might be a situation where some form of MSF could help. I even tried a few times to launch Gargole Dragooon out of balance so it would go crazy and possibly get a KO or 2. This is definitely a battle where SA165 would be the better option.
Death launched first on odd, Dragooon launched first on even
Tie
1)Dragooon - KO (heck yeah!)
Tie
2)Death - OS
Tie
3)Death - OS
Tie
Tie
Tie
Tie
Tie
Tie
4)Death - OS
Tie
Tie
Tie
Tie
Death - 3 wins (OS)
12 ties that were NOT redone
I could not take it anymore. lol. I am please to see that the left spin killer could not run all over Gargole Dragooon, but unless Dragooon gets a freak KO, you will tie all day long. All of Deaths wins were so close I am not even sure they would have been wins. I tried my best to repeat that KO, but it apparantly just hit a sweet spot at the right time. I am on a time constraint right now so I will revist these tests later.
Gargole Dragooon BD145EDS vs. MF-Duo(stamina) Sagittario II 230MB
Duo launched first on odd, Dragooon launched first on even
Both launched aggressively
1)Dragooon - OS
2)Dragooon - OS
3)Dragooon - OS
4)Dragooon - OS
5)Dragooon - KO (caught Duo close to an exit)
6)Dragooon - OS
7)Dragooon - OS
8)Duo - OS (Duo was able to stay away at the end so Dragooon could't leach any spin)
9)Dragooon - OS
10)Dragooon - OS
11)Dragooon - OS
12)Dragooon - OS
13)Dragooon - OS
14)Duo - OS (again duo was able to stay away at the end)
15)Dragooon - OS
16)Dragooon - OS
17)Dragooon - OS
18)Duo - OS
19)Dragooon - OS
20)Dragooon - OS
Duo - 2 wins (all OS)
Gargole Dragooon win % = 90%
I think EDS really helps in this match up because it doesn't allow much of a tilt so Duo could never force smash Gargole Dragooon into a scrape. You do not want to weak launch in this match up in case the opponent tries to stall you. The only way Duo was able to win is if it had gotten Dragooon off balance and then ended up in a rare movement pattern that kept it from hitting Dragooon for the rest of the battle.
If anyone has any requests I will do my best to complete them if I have the necessary parts. Any suggestions or ideas are welcome! I did not have much time to edit or review this so forgive me if there are a few errors.
RE: Gargoyle Dragooon BD145EDS - MexaMaster - Oct. 12, 2012
Wo!These are some decent results!And i'm excited about some Good combos with Gargoyle!
And,er,DEath is kind of bad for Stamina.ALSO,do you have MB?I feel that MF-H Duo Aquario 230MB will do better than MF-H Duo Aquario 230D...
RE: Gargoyle Dragooon BD145EDS - DefStamina88 - Oct. 12, 2012
Damn. These are good!!! All I need is a Dragoon and I can go to work testing this thing!!!
RE: Gargoyle Dragooon BD145EDS - Ultra - Oct. 12, 2012
Quite sceptical about the attack tests. No matter how heavy it is it's still on a awful bottom for defence so it shouldn't have gotten that good against attack IMO. Anyway nice combo.
RE: Gargoyle Dragooon BD145EDS - KainHighwind - Oct. 12, 2012
mexa - thanks! death is know for beating left spin so that's why I tested against it. And I did test against duo 230MB, its under the balance section.
@defstam - thank you! I would love to see other peoples tests with this.
Ultra - I was too while I was testing, that is why I pushed it to 40 rounds, and followed up with the flash 160 tests. I truly believe EDS has more traction with that much weight on it, and Gargole has been treating me really good lately. I would love for someone with really great attack skills to do those tests too so we could get some confirmation. And thank you!
RE: Gargoyle Dragooon BD145EDS - MexaMaster - Oct. 12, 2012
(Oct. 12, 2012 11:07 PM)Kain_Highwind Wrote: mexa - thanks! death is know for beating left spin so that's why I tested against it. And I did test against duo 230MB, its under the balance section.
@defstam - thank you! I would love to see other peoples tests with this.
Ultra - I was too while I was testing, that is why I pushed it to 40 rounds, and followed up with the flash 160 tests. I truly believe EDS has more traction with that much weight on it, and Gargoyle has been treating me really good lately. I would love for someone with really great attack skills to do those tests too so we could get some confirmation. And thank you! And even then it did awesome!
Hey,Why didn't do any VS.Defense tests?MSF-H Reviser Dragoon SA165EWD would most likely pown this combo...
RE: Gargoyle Dragooon BD145EDS - KainHighwind - Oct. 12, 2012
I did some informal defense test and it did great, but it should do great cause stamina should beat defense. So defense tests wouldn't have shown much. I want to see that match up so bad but unfortunately I only have one Dragooon.
RE: Gargoyle Dragooon BD145EDS - MexaMaster - Oct. 12, 2012
(Oct. 12, 2012 11:19 PM)Kain_Highwind Wrote: I did some informal defense test and it did great, but it should do great cause stamina should beat defense. So defense tests wouldn't have shown much. I want to see that match up so bad but unfortunately I only have one Dragooon. I'll be getting a couple of Dragoons soon,so I might be able to do some test by,say,Christmas?That's when i'm getting my BB-10...
RE: Gargoyle Dragooon BD145EDS - UltimateOrion - Oct. 12, 2012
nice combo
RE: Gargole Dragooon BD145EDS - Zero X - Oct. 13, 2012
This combo seems legit but can you test it with Phantom if you have one
RE: Gargole Dragooon BD145EDS - BH145WD - Oct. 13, 2012
Equips~
BB-10
Launcher Grips
Meteo L-Drago Left String Launcher
Ultimate DX Beylauncher L/R
Gargole Dragooon BD145EDS vs. Death Cygnus W145DS
Dragooon launched first, then Death and alternated.
Dragooon wins: 0
Death wins: 10
3 Ties that were redone.
Gargole Dragooon win percentage : 0%
Death Cygnus win percentage : 100%
This was... awkward. BD145 simply took all the hits from the death MW and the only time the ChW and MW made contact was when Gargole Dragooon started wobbling. All of Death's wins were basically a few rotations over Gargole Dragooon.
I only did 10 tests and redid ties since it took too long, and it didn't seem like Gargole Dragooon was gonna win one.
RE: Gargole Dragooon BD145EDS - KainHighwind - Oct. 13, 2012
Did you weak launch? Death is the last thing this combo has a chance against because it is known for destroying left spin. Thank you very much for the tests! When I get to a computer I will add them to the OP. This combo is more about its defensive properties. If you could do some vs attack tests that would be extremely helpful.
I do not have Phantom, so any tests against it would be appreciated.
RE: Gargole Dragooon BD145EDS - BH145WD - Oct. 13, 2012
(Oct. 13, 2012 3:37 PM)Kain_Highwind Wrote: Did you weak launch? Death is the last thing this combo has a chance against because it is known for destroying left spin. Thank you very much for the tests! When I get to a computer I will add them to the OP. This combo is more about its defensive properties. If you could do some vs attack tests that would be extremely helpful.
I do not have Phantom, so any tests against it would be appreciated.
Didn't weak launch. I suspected it might've been the meteo l-drago string launcher so I used the Beylauncher L/R for Gargole Dragooon and used Light Launcher L/R for death and it still lost.
RE: Gargole Dragooon BD145EDS - JesseObre - Oct. 13, 2012
just windering why not RDF?
RE: Gargole Dragooon BD145EDS - KainHighwind - Oct. 14, 2012
I wanted to go more towards a stamina combo with some defensive properties than just make another cookie cutter defense combo. And I honestly like the way EDS worked better than the way RDF did for what I was trying to achieve.
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