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+---- Thread: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion (/Thread-MFB-Standard-Competitive-Customs-List-and-Public-Discussion)
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - Meow! - Feb. 12, 2013
What are everyone's thoughts on GF? I'm pretty surprised that GF is not being discussed that much. In my opinion, it is easily top tier worth and probably the most threatening spin equalizer bottom released. (Provided that you don't self-KO.) Heck, it can OS B:D
BeybladePants11 The main problem with Vari is that it can't really keep up with the newer threats in the game and Death E230CS isn't really a threat anymore. Especially in a general meta where spin equalizers and better left spin attackers are heavily dominant.
Flash is also available to Hasbro users so I don't see much reason to use it anymore.
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - KainHighwind - Feb. 12, 2013
The biggest reason it is probably not at the head of the discussion table is because of the skill needed to use it. I will say the only Genbull combo I found that could beat Dragooon BD145RDF was Genbull Genbull BD145GF. But there definitely needs to be some tests done to get it in the highlight.
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - Dark_Mousy - Feb. 12, 2013
Personally I love GF. Ive been playing around with KillerKen Dragooon CH120 GF the last few weeks. It works for what it does. Works similar to MLD CH120 XF
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - Ingulit - Feb. 12, 2013
Ah, yes, I can't believe I also forgot GF! It's definitely top-tier quality, and like you said it's one of the absolute best spin stealer tips thus far. It's in my queue for things to test, so I'll be doing some experimenting of my own to help figure out what the optimal combos are. Have any GF combos in particular begun to stand out?
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - ShinobuXD - Feb. 12, 2013
Hmm... the main ones are Killerken Dragooon D125/S130/CH120 GF and MSF-H Bahamdia Dragooon SP230 GF.
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - Dark_Mousy - Feb. 12, 2013
Does everyone feel that bahmadia dragooom sp230 gf has enough test to be put in the blance category ?
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - th!nk - Feb. 12, 2013
Personally, I would like at least one more person to test it, as much as I hold Ga and KainHighwind in extremely high esteem, I feel that someone not involved in coming up with the combo or w/e should test it (though they'd need to be aware of the launches against each type, I think Ga did a good job of explaining what to do in different situations). Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but yeah.
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - KainHighwind - Feb. 12, 2013
(Feb. 12, 2013 4:11 PM)th!nk Wrote: Personally, I would like at least one more person to test it, as much as I hold Ga and KainHighwind in extremely high esteem, I feel that someone not involved in coming up with the combo or w/e should test it (though they'd need to be aware of the launches against each type, I think Ga did a good job of explaining what to do in different situations). Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but yeah.
I do not think that is unreasonable at all. As much as I would love to see a combo I helped design make it on to the Competitive Combos list, we need other people to test it so we can get a good idea of just how hard the launch is to learn. If mine and Ga's description of the launches are descriptive enough for people to pick up the launch fairly quick, then I would say heck yeah to adding it!!
Edit: I wish more people would try MSF-Gryph Gryph E230BSF. Really the only thing it has trouble with is Duo 230D/MB and Dragooon. It would be great to see more testing with it.
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - Dark_Mousy - Feb. 12, 2013
(Feb. 12, 2013 4:11 PM)th!nk Wrote: Personally, I would like at least one more person to test it, as much as I hold Ga and KainHighwind in extremely high esteem, I feel that someone not involved in coming up with the combo or w/e should test it (though they'd need to be aware of the launches against each type, I think Ga did a good job of explaining what to do in different situations). Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but yeah.
Ill get some tests up tonight. Im very familiar with the launch style needed.
(Feb. 12, 2013 5:25 PM)KainHighwind Wrote: Edit: I wish more people would try MSF-Gryph Gryph E230BSF. Really the only thing it has trouble with is Duo 230D/MB and Dragooon. It would be great to see more testing with it.
Could the second Gryph be replaced with anything?
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - KainHighwind - Feb. 12, 2013
You will want to keep Gryph as the bottom wheel definitely because of its force/downward smash, but for the top wheel maybe Phoenic or Goreim. I would probably try Goreim first because one thing that makes the combo work so well vs anything lower than it, is that Gryph has such ridiculous spin velocity so it can use the disk to chip away at the opponents stamina. Heck, you could even try Wyvang on top cause that would up the win % against Duo 230D/MB. Try what ever you want, I would love to see another member's tests period. lol
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - ShinobuXD - Feb. 13, 2013
Here are the attack tests for many of the newer attackers KainHighwind mentioned. Like I said earlier, I did not do Phoenic or Begirados because I do not own them. A couple of these were previously done by me, but I did have to so some others, mainly Pegasis.
MF-H Flash Orion GB145 R2F vs MSF Revizer Revizer BD145 CS
Flash:11 Wins(All KO)
Revizer:9 Wins(5 OS,4 KO)
1 Tie
Flash Win Rate: 55%
MSF-L Pegasis Gryph S130 R2F vs MSF Revizer Revizer BD145 CS
Pegasis:6 Wins(All KO)
Revizer:14 Wins(All OS)
2 Ties
Pegasis Win Rate: 30%
I never found this to be very good. It just doesn't work for me.
MSF-L Pegasis Dragooon S130 R2F vs MSF Revizer Revizer BD145 CS
Pegasis: 17 Wins(14 KO, 3 OS)
Revizer: 3 Wins(All OS)
12 Ties
Pegasis Win Rate: 85%
Do notice the ties here. Against RDF, Pegasis Dragooon would do much worse.
MSF-H Goreim Wyvang GB145 R2F vs MSF Revizer Revizer BD145 CS
Wyvang:12 Wins(11 KO,1 OS)
Revizer:8 Wins(5 OS,3 KO)
Wyvang Win Rate: 60%
MSF-L Bahamdia Ifraid SA165(Zero-G Attack Mode)R2F vs MSF Revizer Revizer BD145 CS
Bahamdia:10 Wins(9 KO,1 OS)
Revizer:10 Wins(9 OS,1 KO)
Bahamdia Win Rate: 50%
MSF Balro Balro TR145 MF vs MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145 CS
Balro:9 Wins(5 KO,4 OS)
Revizer:1 Win(OS)
1 Tie
Balro Win Rate:90%
MSF-H Gryph Girago GB145 R2F vs MSF Revizer BD145 CS
Girago:10 Wins(All KO)
Revizer:10 Wins(6 OS,4 KO)
Girago Win Rate: 50%
An interesting trait Girago has on TR145 is it can consistently KO and OS MSF-H Revizer Revizer E230 RSF and KO MSF-H Revizer Revizer E230 CS.
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - th!nk - Feb. 13, 2013
Between the differing heights and tracks (though in both cases it may be a matter of contact point height, that means tests against different defenders are required), and the fact you only did 10 rounds with the most promising one (never do only 10 rounds with attack vs defence, it's too variable, even more so on mf), it's hard to garner much from those tests... You really need to work on following procedure better so your tests are useful. I know it's a pain with the range of defenders zero g has introduced, but if an attacker can't handle say, e230, it's going to run into trouble no matter how well it does against bd145 and re: track heights, it could be that the track lets it hit a gap in reviser rather than the wheel being better.
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - ShinobuXD - Feb. 13, 2013
Well I was trying to test each at the height they've done best on. For example, if I tested Bahamdia Ifraid on S130, it would have done horrible.
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - th!nk - Feb. 13, 2013
Still no excuse for the ten round test (especially for the most promising one there), and you should have done flash S130 tests for comparison to the S130 ones, at the very least.
'Course, we could measure contact point height and use that for standardisation (especially as it would then account for tip wear height change) but that's pretty time intensive, given the odd shape of most Chrome wheels.
The other issue is listing chrome wheels when categorising (and then the effects of each chrome wheel on competitiveness on certain tracks), while the bottom chrome wheel is first in the name, I feel like top chrome wheel is more useful for classification (especially in the case of dragooon). Pardon me if this has been discussed, but if not, anyone have any thoughts?
On the topic of condensing the list, we split it out for a reason, and unless all permutations of a listed combination are competitive, I don't want them listed like that. If, however, the competitive tips for all tracks a wheel is competitive are identical, then yes, it can be condensed. We don't want non-competitive combinations listed, basically.
Finally, and most importantly, it would be good if someone could compose a list of every combo that needs looking at. If a few people contribute to it, we should hopefully cover everything new, and combine that with the old list to get a selection pool. From there, we can narrow it down - cutting out things that don't have enough testing, don't perform well enough, are now heavily outclassed, etc etc. I think that's the best way to go, if we want to do this in a timely manner and not miss anything.
If that list itself updated with the reasons, even better (if the committee and he are okay with it, I might even suggest putting it in the OP (albeit spoilered) after the most obvious things are removed and it's been looked over enough). My reason for proposing this is the fact that since the last update, there's been an influx of new and often varied combinations introduced, and that means there is much more than normal to go through.
Usually I'd leave this kind of thing for the advanced forum to prevent a list full of dumb stuff, but it's not exactly brimming with activity right now, and I think we will be fine as long as the master list is edited by a veteran.
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - KainHighwind - Feb. 14, 2013
I used Pegasus on Diablo cause it is the only CW I have that doesn't let Diablo rattle.
Phoenic Balro TR145MF vs. MF Diablo Pegasis BD145RF
Diablo launched first on even launches, PB launched first on odd.
Detail Results (Click to View)
Diablo: 12 (0 OS, 12 KO)
PB Win %: 40.0%
I am surprised it got 8 wins with the way Diablo would man handle it sometimes, but Phoenic Balro would put Diablo just as far out of the stadium when it would get a good hit in. There were several times they would connect and both just about stop. lol. Diablo would make contact with Phoenic most of the time so I flipped the combo to where Balro was the main point of contact to get an idea how Balro Balro would do, and to see if it was harder for Diablo to KO it since Phoenic has so much to grab on to. To my surprise, it was easier for Diablo to KO Balro Phoenic than to KO Phoenic Balro. That makes me wonder if it could KO Balro Balro easier.
I would appreciate it if someone could confirm these since it is one person doing attack vs anti attack.
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - ShinobuXD - Feb. 14, 2013
Well, that is much better than the Flash variant...
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - KainHighwind - Feb. 14, 2013
I added a few things to my last post cause I posted the results with my phone and then typed the rest with the computer.
It does seem to do better but I realy want to see other members tests just to make sure.
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - Bl4der117 - Feb. 15, 2013
Hey does Flash Pegasus S130 WF sound like it would work???
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - BeybladePants11 - Feb. 15, 2013
No, WF doesn't have as much smash as RF, R2F, and LRF.
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - ShinobuXD - Feb. 15, 2013
But so does MF, and it is top tier, so smash isn't everything.
That combo you suggested isn't bad as a KO/OS attacker, but is outclassed by the W145 MF variant.
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - BeybladePants11 - Feb. 15, 2013
Sorry, I forgot about tornado stallers. So maybe it can be used as a decent tornado staller, but not as good as W145MF.
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - Bl4der117 - Feb. 15, 2013
How about XF??? i mean i know plastic tips dont have great smash attacks but they can afford more hits because they have more stamina
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - Thunder Dome - Feb. 15, 2013
Thats about the same explanation as ShinobuXD said about WF. Flash W145 MF will work better.
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - BeybladePants11 - Feb. 15, 2013
(Feb. 15, 2013 12:49 AM)Bl4der117 Wrote: How about XF??? i mean i know plastic tips dont have great smash attacks but they can afford more hits because they have more stamina
I will try to have some spin times later on. Maybe a combo like Phantom W145 XF and MF?
RE: Public Competitive MFB Customs Discussion (BB-10) - Bl4der117 - Feb. 15, 2013
ok i can make that ill try it out