MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion

MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Printable Version

+- World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. (https://worldbeyblade.org)
+-- Forum: Beyblade Discussion (https://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-Beyblade-Discussion)
+--- Forum: Beyblade Customizations (https://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-Beyblade-Customizations)
+---- Forum: Metal Fight Customizations (https://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-Metal-Fight-Customizations)
+---- Thread: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion (/Thread-MFB-Standard-Competitive-Customs-List-and-Public-Discussion)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - DrPepsidew - Feb. 09, 2014

I dunno why people haven't noticed that Girago is probably if not THE best defense wheel. As for my combo preference, I wouldn't use Revizer^2 due to poor stamina; I've seen someone use Killerken^2 in a tournament situation and it held up pretty well, although it could have been a faulty attack user.
Looking at Revizer and Killerken, one can look at their defining traits. Revizer has an almost fluent circular shape, but it's weight distribution is not the greatest. The peg where the head of the Leviathan is located has more weight than the "holed" side, seeing as directly left of the hole is the Leviathan's flimsy tail.
Killerken has great OWD comparatively to Revizer, if you turn the wheel over to see the underside, there is far less disrupting the circular shape.
However, the ridges on Killerken makes it more recoil prone.

TL;DR: Revizer is harder to knock out, Killerken is harder to OS.
If anyone wants, I can make this more "science-y."

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 09, 2014

(Feb. 09, 2014 5:45 PM)DrPepsidew Wrote: I dunno why people haven't noticed that Girago is probably if not THE best defense wheel.

idk probably because like no one has tested it for defense

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Snoop Dog MS - Feb. 09, 2014

I've discovered this a while ago, never got around to testing it though. Once I get more supplies, I will test.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - [)ragon - Feb. 10, 2014

Killerken is definitely a competitive Defense wheel. I love it, and know a lot of people who do as well.

The reason it isn't on as the Bottom Chrome Wheel on E230 Defense is for the same reason Genbull Genbull isn't. The underside/lower edge is very vulnerable at such a high height, to the point where Revizer is definitely vastly superior. Obviously, with the presence of the disk combined with low height, BD145 defenders don't have this problem (hence the fact that both Genbull Genbull and Killerken Killerken are listed in the BD145 sections along with Revizer).

I actually do not know why Killerken Genbull BD145 isn't listed there, LOL. I think I'll add it. It's certainly a viable option...

E230 is so unmovable from my experience, CS is definitely viable. MSF-H Revizer Killerken E230RSF is probably my favorite E230 Defense variant, but CS works great on the same setup. I don't really know how you are getting those results, LOL! XD Seems a little odd...

Spin Velocity/Weight Distro/Launch Power/All That Jazz:

You stated something very important there.

th!nk Wrote:Keep in mind that's FORCE, not RPM

With wider weight distribution, you are moving the center of weight a farther distance each rotation. Therefore, completing a full rotation takes more force the wider your weight distribution is.

If two Beyblades have different weight distro, one will require more force to rotate than the other. If you apply the same force (your maximum) to each Beyblade, obviously, the one that requires more force to move will rotate slower. This means that the Beyblade with more compact weight will allow you to extend the string to its maximum length faster, therefore increasing its net RPM upon release.

15/3 = 5
15/5 = 3

If I apply 15 "units" of force to two objects that require force to rotate in the ratio of 3:5, the former will reach a higher RPM than the latter, because it requires less energy to move.

Regardless of where the weight is centered, there is still the same net amount of weight set on the Bottom at the end of the day. I don't get how wider weight distro makes something move faster... there should still be the same amount of friction between the stadium floor and the Bottom.

This, again, like I stated in the MSF-L Girago Dragooon SA165EWD thread, comes down to whether or not you consider the dominance of one variant of a custom to render the other variant(s) "uncompetitive." If we consider MSF-L Bahamdia Dragooon BD145RF to be "competitive," even if MSF-M Bahamdia Dragooon BD145LRF is better (just an analogy. I personally think it is, and I need an example, soooo...), then we should add it.

I personally just find it a little too much worse to be particularly comfortable adding it. Just wanna have accurate info up there.

Guys, listen, we really just kinda need an update here, LOL. Adding something like Girago to Defense would take a LOT of testing from multiple members, and a lot of discussion as well. When I was testing Girago Anti-Attack, I did some initial Defense testing to check its recoil, and, while it was pretty acceptable, Revizer out-did it visibly.

KainHighwind told me some time ago that he thought Girago would find uses in Defensive Balance (IE MSF-L Girago Girago BD145RF), because of its low recoil. However, he didn't go right out and say "Defense." IDK if it's really that great, but testing would definitely be great.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 10, 2014

Killerken Stuff: Fair enough, I've always found it was pretty bad at taking hits compared to Revizer (it still has a lot of indentations so I've always felt it relies on revizer to take hits for it while adding to the other properties of the custom - better stamina and some ability to KO stuff) and I recall Killerken Killerken having pretty eh stamina compared to single-Killerken Synchromes.

As for the CS thing, it's possibly due to the condition of my CS. I use them pretty heavily and only have one mint one I'm saving for tournament use, and when the rubber gets rounded it does lose some ability to keep combos upright and catch the ridge. I'll take your word for it working well (though personally FWIW I've never liked RSF, though the scarcity of RDF's and the way wear affects them means I might have to start liking it).

Launcher power wise, none of it is really relevant if you're strong enough anyway. As for speed, would definitely suggest looking up the old threads (they may have been in an archive from an old forum so if you don't find them let me know) about it so we can discuss it further.
EDIT: Couldn't find the thread myself, but I found something referencing it/the theory in one of the archived docs Kei had from BBF. It's hard to explain without sufficient knowledge of physics but the idea as best as I can put it is that the weight being further from the centre "pulls" the beyblade around more. It's hard for me to explain because it seems intuitive to me (but on physics my intuition is pretty eh so yeah give it some thought).

However, for the time being, I really think you should just let it slide, the differences we're talking about are minute - variations within the same combination rather than two different combinations, with parts that are generally agreed upon as being very similar, and a few of us get better results out of those setups you consider inferior (as I said, MF-L Bahamdia Dragooon BD145RF is the best Standard Format attack combo I've tried so far, and I've tried a lot of different things now, though I like a second wyvang or balro) - whether it's personal preference, our launches, or the condition of our parts, I think the best compromise is to include all of the options, and hopefully people will make up their own mind about what works best. Anyone who has an MSF-M will generally have an MSF-L and as for RF/R2F, it's probably good for people to try both in general anyway - plus in the case of RF at least it also has uses in anti attack and so on, so it's not a huge issue for people who are buying parts for combos anyway.

If you can write out an updated version with the explanations so far of changes (let me know if there's anything you want me to write from stuff I've suggested or whatever, like the flash cw's etc etc) I'll post it in the advanced forum for you. I am still sad that no one has managed to post flash beelzeb pics yet, surely someone out there has both and a camera...

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - [)ragon - Feb. 10, 2014

Again, everything comes down to whether or not you consider the superiority of one variant to render the other(s) "uncompetitive."

... Except in this case, it would seem that you guys are actually getting different results. Seeing PRO SEAGULL's results, and hearing your opinion, I may have just been having a bad stroke of luck with MSF-L/RF, but regardless, if there are results supporting it we should definitely list it.

It just might drive me nuts for a little bit is all, LOL. XD I'll get over it.

I'll have a fully updated list with spelling corrections up by tonight.

Spoiler (Click to View)

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 10, 2014

Oh, right, I should've mentioned this, seeing as he's been busy. Here's what he said to me in private, I don't think he'd mind me posting it, I imagine he would have were he not so busy right now.

Ingulit Wrote:I'm the one who proposed Beelzeb be added; it doesn't get in the way hardly at all and its weight distribution is PHENOMENAL for Flash. I really should do solo spins with the different clear wheels, because I swear I can OS things better with Beelzeb on MF-H Flash ____ W145MF than any other clear wheel (and it still hits extremely hard).

Ionis isn't the worst choice, though I personally was surprised to see it get listed tbh

I can't see the design not getting in the way against taller opponents where Flash has to hit with its slopes rather than directly side-on, so I still have some reservations about it being listed on Flash RF (especially as Escolpio and Orion (which I honestly think flash was designed for - it has eye-like details there and everything in either mode!) already have really nice weight distros for it), but in lieu of conflicting evidence, I trust his opinion more than enough to let it be (I generally wouldn't be concerned at all, but I'm still "spooked" after the whole Ionis thing, haha).

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - [)ragon - Feb. 10, 2014

If it really gets great solo-spin times on Flash W145MF, heck, that throws open doors. I'll leave it on there (with spelling correction) when I update the draft.

That thing should be tested for Stamina at some point if it's really that good. Does anyone know how much it weighs, exactly?

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 10, 2014

Some people mentioned liking it for stamina, but it came out alongside Hades and only a month before Cygnus, and to me it looks like it slopes up towards the center which in theory is generally bad for stamina (though cygnus kinda does too, so maybe that's not such a problem). It is something that needs to be solo-spun, though, yes.

I searched and can't find anything on its weight. When Ingulit is less busy he will probably be able to weigh it, but yeah.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - [)ragon - Feb. 11, 2014

Quote:
TheBlackDragon Wrote:
ATTACK

Wyvang

{MSF{-H}} Wyvang Wyvang (GB145/W145/H145) (R2F/RF)

{MSF{-H}} Wyvang Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] (R2F/RF/LRF)

Balro

{MSF{-H}} Balro Balro (CH120/D125/T125/W145) (RF/R2F)

Bahamdia

{MSF-M/MSF-L} Bahamdia Dragooon BD145 (LRF/R2F/RF)

Flash

MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzeb) (GB145/H145/S130/CH120) (R2F/RF)

MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzeb) W145 MF

DEFENSE

Duo

MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 (RDF/RB)

MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) E230 (RDF/RSF/RB/CS)

Revizer/Killerken

MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) (Revizer/Killerken) BD145 (RDF/RB/CS/RSF)

MSF-H Revizer (Revizer/Killerken) E230 (RDF/RSF/CS/RB)

Genbull

MSF-H Revizer Genbull E230 (RDF/RB/RSF/CS)

MSF-H (Revizer/Genbull) Genbull BD145 (RDF/RB/RSF)

STAMINA

Duo

Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)

Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD/TB)

Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SR200 TB

Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 160 PD

Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SA165[Normal] EWD

Genbull

Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)

Genbull Genbull TH170 TB

Phantom

Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)

Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) TH170 (D/SD/TB)

Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) SR200 TB

Dragooon

{MSF{-H}} (Revizer/Genbull/Killerken/Girago) Dragooon SA165[Normal] EWD

MSF-L Girago Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] EWD

BALANCE

MF(-M/-H) Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 230 MB

(Girago/Genbull) Genbull E230 MB

Girago Girago E230 MB

MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145 RSF

MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85 MF

MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230 BSF

{MF{-L}} (Duo/Death) (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) F230* (CF/GCF)

{MSF{-L}} (Genbull/Girago/Revizer/Killerken) Dragooon F230* (CF/GCF)

{MSF{-L}} Genbull Genbull F230* (CF/GCF)

MF-H Diablo (Kerbecs/Unicorn II) BD145 RF

MSF-(H/L) Girago Girago BD145 RF

MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145 RF

MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145 RDF

{MSF-H} (Revizer/Killerken) Dragooon SA165[Normal] RDF

Genbull Dragooon T125 GCF

* F230 must be one of the orange ones from ZGRBV3, not the brown or red ones.

Well, there you have it! Now, for the things I changed:

Removed MF-H from MSF(-M/-H) Bahamdia Dragooon BD145 (LRF/R2F/RF), made MF-M optional, and added MSF-L as an option.

Spoiler (Click to View)
Trust me, coming from the person who designed it, MSF-H makes this thing waaaaaaaaaay too slow to do its job. Push-attackers need to be fast, and MSF-H kills this custom's speed. MF-M helps reduce recoil slightly without reducing speed, but the difference isn't nearly enough to call it a vastly superior option to a normal face.

I initially opposed the addition of MSF-L, but different people are getting great results with it, and the difference is extremely minute. That said, the consensus is that we should list it additionally.

Added MSF-L as an option with Girago BD145RF

Spoiler (Click to View)
Back when I tested this, I didn't like MSF-H because it killed too much Stamina and slowed the custom down a little much for my taste. Granted, it still works amazing, but IMO MSF-L is at least as good, if not better, so I think we should definitely include it.

Removed MSF-H from Girago Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] EWD

Spoiler (Click to View)
Just doesn't work very well. I really didn't like MSF-H on this custom when I tested it. It just seemed to hurt its late-game stability and decrease its Precession too much. It wouldn't kill me to keep it, but IMO MSF-L works worlds better.

Added Unicorno II as an option with Diablo Anti-Attack

Spoiler (Click to View)
Heavy, 3-sided, and reeeeeeeeeeeeally cool looking.

Replaced M(S)F-M with M(S)F-L on all F230 customs, and made M(S)F-L optional.

Spoiler (Click to View)
I've never liked MF-M on anything besides select Attack types. Contrary to popular opinion, it does not help a custom's Precession. It actually hurts it. If you want to hear my reasoning, give this thread a read. MF-H is OK, but I think most people agree that it simply isn't necessary to kill that much Stamina for such a slight reduction of recoil over MF-L. MF-L doesn't hurt Precession much if at all, doesn't hurt Stamina, and yet reduces recoil nicely. IMO it's the best option for these customs if one wants a Metal Face of some kind on them.

Removed Genbull as an option for the bottom Chrome Wheel in E230 Defense customs

Spoiler (Click to View)
Far too much recoil. Genbull's underside is just... Ugh. Revizer is a clearly better choice in just about every way IMO.

Made MSF-H optional on Dragooon SA165[Normal] spin-equalizers

Spoiler (Click to View)
For the same reasons as M(S)F-M, I find M(S)F-H to seriously hurt a custom's Precession the vast majority of the time. This is kind of a huge change, so leaving this alteration out until further testing/discussion is completely understandable/reasonable. I don't expect this change to be made in the next update, but hey, couldn't hurt to throw it in there now right?

Added Girago Girago as a Synchrom option for E230MB Balance

Spoiler (Click to View)
This Synchrom has put up amazing numbers on this setup. Better than any other variant tested. Check this thread for information.

Removed Ionis as an option on Flash Attack

Spoiler (Click to View)
The consensus seems to be that Ionis is simply outclassed by other options for use with Flash. It doesn't provide any advantage over other options available, and apparently protrudes a bit too far to be considered competitive.

Here it is.

It's beautiful... *SNIFF*

I figured out why all those "Revizers" were mispelled. I re-formatted/changed the original draft on my android, and it has a spell check that changes "Revizer" to "Reviser" LOL.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - DRAGON KING - Feb. 11, 2014

You might wanna put that in a spoiler...

Why not just put It as Girago/Genbull Girago/Genbull E230MB?

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - TimeOut - Feb. 11, 2014

I haven't seen tests on or people use MF(-M/-H) Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 230 MB in a tournament in a long time, is it actually still competitive (truly asking as I have no idea)?

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - [)ragon - Feb. 11, 2014

(Feb. 11, 2014 12:17 AM)DRAGON KING Wrote: You might wanna put that in a spoiler...

Why not just put It as Girago/Genbull Girago/Genbull E230MB?

Because that leaves you with Genbull Girago E230MB, which hasn't been formally tested, and honestly isn't worth listing either.

Time Wrote:I haven't seen tests on or people use MF(-M/-H) Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 230 MB in a tournament in a long time, is it actually still competitive (truly asking as I have no idea)?

Really? I won with it in Virginia a month or so ago IIRC. It's definitely still competitive. Beats the carp out of most competitive Stamina nowadays, and it deals with E230MB Balance, which is becoming pretty huge on the tournament scene.

Duo 230MB should definitely stay.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 11, 2014

Okay, posting that in the Advanced Forum now - made a small edit to add LRF to right spin attack, but the rest is verbatim. Great work TBD, and everyone else involved.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - DRAGON KING - Feb. 11, 2014

(Feb. 11, 2014 5:12 AM)th!nk Wrote: Okay, posting that in the Advanced Forum now - made a small edit to add LRF to right spin attack.

It's about time LRF gets added. Thanks!

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Tri - Feb. 11, 2014

I'd say the list is spot on. Thanks for the formatting and time to write it up TheBlackDragon!

I'm pretty sure it's been discussed before, but I think seperating the balance section into some sub sections might make it easier to read and give an idea of what that combo does. Maybe like spin equalization, staller, anti-attack, etc. Heck, at least adding sections for specific metal/chrome wheels would be helpful especially since some are on the balance section quite a lot, like Dragooon.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - DRAGON KING - Feb. 11, 2014

(Feb. 11, 2014 5:29 AM)PRO SEAGULL Wrote: I'd say the list is spot on. Thanks for the formatting and time to write it up TheBlackDragon!

I'm pretty sure it's been discussed before, but I think seperating the balance section into some sub sections might make it easier to read and give an idea of what that combo does. Maybe like spin equalization, staller, anti-attack, etc. Heck, at least adding sections for specific metal/chrome wheels would be helpful especially since some are on the balance section quite a lot, like Dragooon.

i agree with this, although some might not fit in to any of the sub-sections.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 11, 2014

Oh, I also added Uranus for Flash, and stuck it in with the Ionis removal explanation etc. Keeps the number even and IMO its exposure and distribution sit much closer to those that are listed rather than, say, Horogium, which is good but not great, and there was general agreement on it being aight.

As for further classifications in the balance subsection, aside from specific things like Anti-Attack (and even then tbh) it would mean figuring out where to put stuff which would take extra time, when people can just find the thread or whatever and make up their own mind anyway. That's generally why we don't do it.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Dark_Mousy - Feb. 11, 2014

The list looks amazing. Im still not a fan of Balro Balro for attack.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - [)ragon - Feb. 11, 2014

I totally forgot to add LRF in there talking about Bahamdia Dragooon BD145, haha. Definitely in favor of adding it.

Balro's a total boss!! There's no Attack wheel better at handling E230 combinations (which are becoming huge on the East Coast tournament scene ATM). I really like it.

Hey Dark, are your Balros worn at all? Its performance decreases pretty noticeably once it's been worn to a certain point. I had trouble with it a couple months ago, but I swapped to a pair of mint ones and it started blowing stuff across the room. Balro is also supposed to be banked deeper than your average Attack type, so if you aren't doing' that it could be the reason.

Speaking of Balro, whenever we update the tier list again (too soon to do it now most likely), we should look at adding Balro Attack/Stamina Balance combinations, like (MSF(-L/-H)) Balro Balro (TR145/BD145) MF. They work pretty darn well. Very possibly better overall than Flash W145MF, which is a force to be reckoned with in and of itself.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - DRAGON KING - Feb. 11, 2014

Quote:MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 (RDF/RB)
MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) E230 (RDF/RSF/RB/CS)

Hopefully I don't sound stupid, but why isn't CS/RSF on Duo BD145? Is it too light to work on those?

If this shouldn't be asked here, please tell me.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - th!nk - Feb. 11, 2014

Don't know about RSF, but Flash destroyed the viability of Duo BD145CS as a defensive combination a long, long time ago.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - 6 God - Feb. 11, 2014

I was wondering that also, but I figured Duo already had enough stamina and RSF and CS didn't have the Defensive capabilities.

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - DRAGON KING - Feb. 11, 2014

The what about:

Quote:MSF-H (Revizer/Genbull) Genbull BD145 (RDF/RB/RSF)

Is it the same, not enough pure defence for CS?

RE: MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - DrPepsidew - Feb. 11, 2014

What of Wyvang^2 SA165 (Attack) LRF?
It deals with E230 better than most attack types