MSF-F Dragooon² LW160CF | MSF Phoenic² S130RF | MSF-H Killerken² BD145CS - zionson - Aug. 02, 2012
INTRODUCTION
Allow me to be somewhat lazy and put all three of the current combos that I'm testing here in one thread. It should also help to give comparative insight as to how each combo performs against specific beys. For this series of tests, I've elected to synchrom identical wheels rather than find another wheel to pair it with. This is easier for me and should provide a baseline against which other tests can be compared.
I developed three specific combos for my use in competitions, and I've leaned towards Zero-G purely because I really like the synchrom system (balance be damned!) and because I really don't like to tread the beaten path and use typical competitive combos. I disdain the advice of some veterans to just "look at the competitive parts list and just build from there." It's good advice, for sure, but it doesn't leave much room for growth. So without further ado, here are the combos I'll be discussing in this thread.
THE COMBOS
BALANCE - MSF-F Dragooon Dragooon LW160CF
MSF-F - In my use of Dragooon, I've discovered that many of my wins were from OSing the opponent's bey. It is a terrific spin stealer, so I opted to use the lightest Face Bolt to add to its stamina and increase its ability to get up to speed with an opposing bey.
Synchrom Dragooon Dragooon - Dragooon gives me a little of everything. As the only Zero-G left spin bey, it's my only option for spin steal. It also has pretty good balance, low recoil, and token smash. Basically, a jack-of-all-trades wheel. I've tried Synchrom Phoenic Dragooon and Killerken Dragooon, but I've found that Dragooon Dragooon seems to work best for me.
LW160 - If the early indicators for W145 are correct, LW160 should do the same for left spin. Since I want a bey that can outlast my opponent's I went for a track that supposedly increases spin time.
CF - In my first foray with Dragooon, I used a GCF, which proved too difficult to control and always settled into a tornado stall after one hit. I wanted something more consistent yet gave me enough velocity and stamina to outspin opponents or destabilize them. CF gave me the answer because the wide disc adds additional weight at the bottom and prevents toppling over with the heavy synchrom and tall track.
ATTACK - MSF Phoenic Phoenic S130RF
MSF - I would've used an MSF-H, but I was loath to open another one I had stashed, so I used an MSF instead. Phoenic has laughable stamina, so I didn't bother. Get a heavy Face Bolt and just go for muscle.
Synchrom Phoenic Phoenic - Phoenic is still the best attack wheel in Zero-G and delivers the most impressive smash of all chrome wheels. I completely enjoy the way it performs but I might not have discovered its true potential yet.
S130 - As much as I liked the cookie-cutter BD145RF for this, Kei was right in saying that there's no real synergy between Phoenic and BD145. Instead, I opted for a lower track with a little bit of BD145 disc action going on.
RF - The important thing about Phoenic is that it keeps attacking. RF, despite its lower velocity, gives you just that -- constant attacks. If you launch it hard enough, it'll do the job early enough and not suffer from the severe deceleration that RF goes through after impact.
DEFENSE - MSF-H Killerken Killerken BD145CS
MSF-H - I wanted to build a tank bey, so the heaviest Face Bolt is a no-brainer.
Synchrom Killerken Killerken - I hate Revizer because it has incredibly bad balance and the smooth edges do absolutely nothing. It's just heavy. Killerken, on the other hand, has ridges along its side and has decent weight. When synchromed, it behaves in a manner similar to Death. It has more smash than Dragooon, and is basically -- to use someone's term -- a big bus full of fat people ... but the fat people are carrying machine guns.
BD145 - If you're building a tank, you give it tank tracks.
CS - Because I wanted a Defense bey, and not an anti-attack bey (there's a difference), CS was the only choice. CS makes the entire bey like a Soft Master, flowing with impact. Much of the opponent's smash is dissipated by CS's adaptive nature. It also has pretty good stamina.
THE TESTS
Because I was testing three beys, you'll indulge me in that I didn't test exhaustively against the Competitive list. Instead, I picked out a few which have made a mark in our meta. All tests were conducted in a BB-10 Attack Type Stadium (Pegasis Leone Vs Set ver.), using an L/R Beylauncher. Attack type launched second, with alternating launches vs. other attack types. Combos tested against were taken from the Competitive Metal Fight Beyblades Combos thread.
vs STAMINA
MSF-F Dragooon Dragooon LW160CF vs Phantom Cygnus AD14WD
Win: 3
Lose: 17
15% WIN RATE
Notes: This was a complete surprise to me as I had extremely promising tests with Dragooon. Dragooon did not have the smash to consistently KO Phantom 145, and for some reason was unable to steal enough spin to stay alive during a battle. I theorized that it might be the height disparity and that at 160 Dragooon might have trouble with lower tracks.
MSF Phoenic Phoenic S130RF vs Phantom Cygnus AD145WD
Win: 15
Lose: 5
75% WIN RATE
Notes: This one should be fairly obvious - if you hit Phantom right, it'll fly out of the stadium across the room. If you miss, you're toast. These are the match-ups that make Phoenic so much fun to use, each win was a stadium KO.
MSF-H Killerken Killerken BD145CS vs Phantom Cygnus AD145WD
Win: 14
Lose: 6
70% WIN RATE
Notes: This was very surprising for me. As a tank bey, I'd intended for it to withstand attacks, but Killerken Killerken was a revelation. It acted like Death and ate away at the opposing bey's spin. These matches had Killerken Killerken OSing Phantom reliably, sometimes by more than several rotations. Two wins were stadium KOs, thanks to its modicum of smash.
MSF-F Dragooon Dragooon LW160CF vs Duo Cancer 230SD
Win: 20
Lose: 0
100% WIN RATE
Notes: This was the matchup that sold me on Dragooon. Having lost to Dup 230s in the Finals bracket of my last tournament, I went back and tinkered with my combo until I was on to something. This is a matchup that is just obscene, where Dragooon Dragooon would beat Duo 230 in every which way, from stadium KOs, to destabilization, to OS. For some reason synchrom Dragooon Dragooon destabilizes 230s best among the other Dragooon synchroms that I've tried.
MSF Phoenic Phoenic S130RF vs Duo Cancer 230SD
Win: 14
Lose: 6
70% WIN RATE
Notes: Same principle applies. Hit the bey. Make it fly.
MSF-H Killerken Killerken BD145CS vs Duo Cancer 230SD
Win: 11
Lose: 9
55% WIN RATE
Notes: This was also surprising for me, mostly because I thought Killerken would be completely outclassed. It wasn't. Again, the Death effect. It would eat away at Duo's spin enough to equalize and sometimes outspin it. Wonderful surprise.
vs DEFENSE (Anti-Attack)
MSF-F Dragooon Dragooon LW160CF vs MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF
Win: 14
Lose: 6
70% WIN RATE
Notes: If Diablo gets a good hit, Dragooon will fly out of the stadium. In a matchup like this, tornado stall as much as you can. Dragooons wins were OSs.
MSF Phoenic Phoenic S130RF vs Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF
Win: 3
Lose: 17
15% WIN RATE
Notes: Considering the anti-attack combo was made specifically against stuff like this, I probably shouldn't have been surprised or so disappointed Phoenic Phoenic did so poorly. Overall, in a battle of RFs, the heavier, more balanced bey won. This is where Phoenic's horrendous stamina will bite you in the hindside. But Diablo also got a lot of terrific stadium KOs aside from OS.
MSF-H Killerken Killerken BD145CS vs Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF
Win: 15
Lose: 5
75% WIN RATE
Notes: Diablo snuck in a few impressive stadium KOs when I launched it aggressively, but overall, Killerken can withstand attacks and reliably outspin this combo.
vs INGULIT'S CHALLENGE, designed according to instructions
MSF-F Dragooon Dragooon LW160CF vs MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F (slightly used)
Win: 15
Lose: 5
75% WIN RATE
Notes: The tip used here was a slightly used R2F because my worn R2F was simply too slow to be as aggressive as necessary. Ingulit's combo got a couple of good hits in, but otherwise was consistently outspun by Dragoooon Dragooon, despite it not being able to steal much spin from Basalt. In these tests, Dragooon was always launched first because CF has superior stamina.
MSF Phoenic Phoenic S130RF vs MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F (slightly used)
Win: 4
Lose: 16
20% WIN RATE
Notes: Considering Ingulit's challenge was to beat all RF variants, this seems par for the course, as it handily beat Phoenic Phoenic in RF. Phoenic's few wins were stadium KOs.
MSF-H Killerken Killerken BD145CS vs MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F (slightly used)
Win: 20
Lose: 0
100% WIN RATE
Notes: This was just a complete massacre. Basalt couldn't make any headway into Killerken as it simply didn't have enough smash to either destabilize or throw it out of the stadium. Killerken's spin eating feature just demolished this combo.
CONCLUSIONS
MSF-F Dragooon Dragooon LW160CF
I think I made the right choice here in terms of track and tip. I really think CF makes a big difference in terms of early destabilization (attack mode) and subsequently outspinning an opponent (stamina mode). No other tip provides the stability and speed that CF gives. I like this combo a lot and will probably find its way into my tournament set.
MSF Phoenic Phoenic S130RF
I'm still frustrated that I haven't quite found the right complement for Phoenic. The Phoenic synchrom has such terrific smash that I know I can make use of it, but I'm still searching for the right combination. As it is, it's still a pretty good choice of bey because with some luck, no matter what your opponent is, you will have a chance to win because of pure smash. The results are okay for me, but I won't be satisfied until I've come up with an Attack combo that can beat anti-Attack, too.
MSF-H Killerken Killerken BD145CS
This was the surprise MVP for me in the tests. It was my least favorite combo, but it did surprisingly well. Let me say it now ... Killerken Killerken is Zero-G generation's Death wheel. I love it and unlike Phoenic, Killerken and BD145 actually work well together because Killerken doesn't need to deliver smash.
Overall, I think I'm starting to settle on to a few wheels for my competitive combos. I always try to surprise our meta with new combos out of the competitive list, and I'm pretty confident with these. I hope you guys can do some tests yourselves so we can have more data. If I have time, I would do more tests against Flash, Variares, Blitz, and even Death, but my Death wheel is presently in the possession of someone else. :p
RE: Synchrom Phoenic, Killerken, and Dragooon combos - JesseObre - Aug. 02, 2012
nice job on combos guess i need dragoon!
RE: Synchrom Phoenic, Killerken, and Dragooon combos - Zanymidgt - Aug. 02, 2012
What I really like about these tests is that it's not meant to just show what a custom is good against. It also shows that the custom is definitely FAR from unbeatable. It gives moran insight on how a custom is overall.
RE: Synchrom Phoenic, Killerken, and Dragooon combos - Meow! - Aug. 02, 2012
Hi Zionson, awesome tests. As you probably remeber not to long ago, a tester name Mu tested Killerken's defense agaisnt flash.
Do you mind doing: MSF-H Killerken Killerken BD145CS vs MF-H Flash Orion S130R2F? Thanks.
Plus a personal request I'm quite interested in: MSF-H Dragooon Killerken BD145RDF vs MF-H Flash Orion S130R2F
XD I just wanted to gauge the performance before i actually go out and buy all the pieces. The stamina from killerken might help the spin stealing so I wanted to make sure the defense was up to par.
Once again thanks for the tests. Fabulous results on the killerken side. Was not expecting those at all.
RE: Synchrom Phoenic, Killerken, and Dragooon combos - Raigeko13 - Aug. 02, 2012
Great tests, and combos. Hopefully LW160 DOES provide extra stamina on Dragooon, like W145 does for essentially everything.
Kind of surprised with Dragooon Dragooon working well together, since it just covers up its own contact points lol.
Meow!
IIRC the tests weren't legitimate, but they were somewhat believable, I don't recall ever getting a definite answer, even though it was mutually agreed they were.
RE: Synchrom Phoenic, Killerken, and Dragooon combos - zionson - Aug. 03, 2012
Mu's tests were faked.
The contact points can be covered because Dragooon isn't going for smash. It's pretty well-balanced when synchromed with itself and steals spin much better than when synchromed with other wheels I've tried.
I'll get to those requests as soon as I find time, hopefully tonight. Just a bit busy now again as I head out.
RE: Synchrom Phoenic, Killerken, and Dragooon combos - marcoy - Aug. 03, 2012
Now I know your combos for the next tournament lol!
For the Dragooon combo, were you launching at full power or weak launching for spin steal? I was surprised by the result against the Phantom AD145 combo.
RE: Synchrom Phoenic, Killerken, and Dragooon combos - zionson - Aug. 03, 2012
(Aug. 03, 2012 3:32 AM)marcoy Wrote: Now I know your combos for the next tournament lol!
For the Dragooon combo, were you launching at full power or weak launching for spin steal? I was surprised by the result against the Phantom AD145 combo.
I tried it all. Weak, strong ... I tried to KO it with sliding shoot, tried tornado stall. none of it seemed to work. it's not the height since it could beat Ingulit's Basalt TR145. might try Phantom on a 230.
RE: Synchrom Phoenic, Killerken, and Dragooon combos - Shogun - Aug. 03, 2012
Looks like I need to get another Synchrom Battle Set for another Killerken What are the chances of it beating Basalt in a mirror combo?
RE: Synchrom Phoenic, Killerken, and Dragooon combos - zionson - Aug. 03, 2012
(Aug. 03, 2012 5:45 AM)Shogun Wrote: Looks like I need to get another Synchrom Battle Set for another Killerken What are the chances of it beating Basalt in a mirror combo?
In all likelihood, Killerken will eat Basalt. If Ingulit's Basalt combo is any indication, Basalt is simply too light and too small to give Killerken Killerken any trouble. I'll do some tests, but that's my gut feel.
RE: Synchrom Phoenic, Killerken, and Dragooon combos - zionson - Aug. 03, 2012
I was able to get some tests in:
Meow!'s requests
MSF-H Killerken Killerken BD145CS vs MF-H Flash Orion S130R2F
Win: 14
Lose: 6
70% WIN RATE
Notes: Flash got some pretty impressive stadium KOs, but overall it needs to hit that big smash attack or just lose because of inferior balance. The Killerken combo is a pretty safe bet against a Flash attacker, which probably means it's a good choice against almost any attacker.
MSF-H Killerken Dragooon BD145RDF vs MF-H Flash Orion S130R2F
Win: 19
Lose: 1
95% WIN RATE
Notes: If Flash had a hard time against the previous combo, left spin and an RDF tip made it almost impossible for Flash to KO, getting lucky with one hit and sending it out of the stadium but otherwise completely outclassed.
MSF-H Killerken Dragooon BD145RDF vs Duo Cancer 230SD
Win: 4
Lose: 16
20% WIN RATE
Notes: Out of curiosity, I wanted to test this combo's ability to take on a stamina bey. In particular, Duo 230, which is dominant in our meta. As I suspected, it fared rather poorly, getting a couple of destabilizations, but otherwise outclassed. As far as combos go, I would prefer to go with my right spin dual Killerken with a CS tip, which works well both for defense and yet fares rather well against stamina. The replacement of Dragooon removes the synchrom's spin-eating ability and the RDF tip just doesn't have any stamina.
Shogun's request
MSF-H Killerken Killerken BD145CS vs MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145CS
Win: 19
Lose: 1
95% WIN RATE
Notes: Just like I thought.
RE: Synchrom Phoenic, Killerken, and Dragooon combos - UltimateFantasy - Aug. 04, 2012
I have a few ideas for improving Phoenic Phoenic.
MSF Phoenic Phoenic CH120 R2F/RF
MSF Phoenic Phoenic W145 R2F/RF
RE: Synchrom Phoenic, Killerken, and Dragooon combos - zionson - Aug. 04, 2012
(Aug. 04, 2012 3:23 AM)UltimateFantasy Wrote: I have a few ideas for improving Phoenic Phoenic.
MSF Phoenic Phoenic CH120 R2F/RF
MSF Phoenic Phoenic W145 R2F/RF
I've tried all of those, including R145, and there's no significant improvement against anti-attack. Improvements made to counter anti-attack result in appreciable loss of effectivity against other types. I might have to swallow the tough pill that there's just no attack bey that can counter anti-attack while maintaining effective smash against all other types. Still haven't given up yet, though.
RE: MSF-F Dragooon² LW160CF | MSF Phoenic² S130RF | MSF-H Killerken² BD145CS - King of Misfits - Aug. 04, 2012
Wow, can I see them versus MF Beat Lynx GB145RF.
(I know it is outclassed now, but I would still like to see it.
RE: MSF-F Dragooon² LW160CF | MSF Phoenic² S130RF | MSF-H Killerken² BD145CS - Sniper - Aug. 04, 2012
Edit: I tried to tell my friend but he insisted to post anyway
RE: MSF-F Dragooon² LW160CF | MSF Phoenic² S130RF | MSF-H Killerken² BD145CS - Jinbee - Aug. 04, 2012
(Aug. 04, 2012 11:22 PM)Sniperâ„¢ Wrote: Hey BTW its Theif Theif not Phoenic Phoenic
It is Pheonic Pheonic
RE: MSF-F Dragooon² LW160CF | MSF Phoenic² S130RF | MSF-H Killerken² BD145CS - MissKarat - Aug. 04, 2012
(Aug. 04, 2012 11:22 PM)Sniperâ„¢ Wrote: Hey BTW its Theif Theif not Phoenic Phoenic
It's not Thief Thief at all
RE: Synchrom Phoenic, Killerken, and Dragooon combos - UltimateFantasy - Aug. 06, 2012
(Aug. 04, 2012 5:51 AM)zionson Wrote: (Aug. 04, 2012 3:23 AM)UltimateFantasy Wrote: I have a few ideas for improving Phoenic Phoenic.
MSF Phoenic Phoenic CH120 R2F/RF
MSF Phoenic Phoenic W145 R2F/RF
I've tried all of those, including R145, and there's no significant improvement against anti-attack. Improvements made to counter anti-attack result in appreciable loss of effectivity against other types. I might have to swallow the tough pill that there's just no attack bey that can counter anti-attack while maintaining effective smash against all other types. Still haven't given up yet, though.
The only other track I could think of is H145.
RE: MSF-F Dragooon² LW160CF | MSF Phoenic² S130RF | MSF-H Killerken² BD145CS - Super%Sayian - Aug. 31, 2012
is there anythin you can sub for cf on dragooon?
RE: MSF-F Dragooon² LW160CF | MSF Phoenic² S130RF | MSF-H Killerken² BD145CS - Kai Hiwatari - Aug. 31, 2012
Wow, I really enjoyed reading the thought you have put into all of these. I am definitely considering getting some of the Zero G blades now. The Customs seem very promising.
RE: MSF-F Dragooon² LW160CF | MSF Phoenic² S130RF | MSF-H Killerken² BD145CS - zionson - Sep. 01, 2012
(Aug. 31, 2012 9:21 PM)BeybladeWrecker Wrote: is there anythin you can sub for cf on dragooon?
I need to reconsider CF, although its performance is really good. CF on LW160 is very loose. It has fallen off on several tournament matches (different CFs and different LW160s). It seems that the fit just isn't right.
RE: MSF-F Dragooon² LW160CF | MSF Phoenic² S130RF | MSF-H Killerken² BD145CS - Ga' - Sep. 01, 2012
I've found that the CF from RBV2 (Pirates Revizer) has a tighter fit than other CFs I have borrowed. It is still loose, but stays snug on the track.
RE: MSF-F Dragooon² LW160CF | MSF Phoenic² S130RF | MSF-H Killerken² BD145CS - matakj09 - Sep. 16, 2012
why dont u keep the cf but just use a normal 160 ?????? it may not have as much stamina but it well probbly do the same if u can test a normal 160
RE: MSF-F Dragooon² LW160CF | MSF Phoenic² S130RF | MSF-H Killerken² BD145CS - Ultra - Sep. 16, 2012
What would be the point in changing it if it ends up making no difference to performance? Also did you read the combo section? He chose LW160 because it might have good stamina based on the fact that W145 does.
RE: MSF-F Dragooon² LW160CF | MSF Phoenic² S130RF | MSF-H Killerken² BD145CS - matakj09 - Sep. 16, 2012
he said that cf is lose on lw160 so mabey a normal 160 wont be lose
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