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+--- Thread: What Makes A Top Tier? (/Thread-What-Makes-A-Top-Tier)
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What Makes A Top Tier? - Shabalabadoo - Aug. 26, 2011
Im putting this here rather than the advanced forum because i dont think there would be much SPAM with the topic being discussed. I think it'd also be better to get a big variety of answers.
So, first a Quote from the Competitive Metal Fight Beyblade Combos:
Competitive Metal Fight Beyblade Combos Wrote:This is a list of currently competitive combos in the Metal Fight Beyblade metagame.
hmmm...in the meta game...
Is the strongest Attack Metal Wheel necessarily good in the Metagame?
Are the longest spinning Stamina Metal Wheels necessarily good in the Metagame?
The Competitive Metal Fight Beyblade Combos topic has always listed the Attack Combo's with the best attack; the Stamina Combos with the best Stamina; and the Defense Combos with the best Defense.
But is that what makes a Combo good in the Metagame?
My favourite definition of a Top Tier is from Yamislayer, where he told me a while back:
Yamislayer Wrote:A Top Tier should really be the combos that do well is more situations than other combos in that category.That isnt the exact quote, but i'm not going to go find the PM; you get the point though.
So there's two definitions. Post what you think, whether you have new ideas or agree with either definition.
PLEASE DON'T SPAM, I POSTED THIS HERE RATHER THAN THE ADVANCED FORUM SO OTHER PEOPLE GET A SAY AND MORE IDEAS GO IN. Please respect that.
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Hazel - Aug. 26, 2011
Technically, at least by my definition(and the one that seems to be most-applied here), a Top-Tier Attack/Defense/Stamina is defined by its ability to consistently surpass the performance of other combinations in its category while also having a smaller number of counters than potentially better combos with more narrow applications.
Simply put, a combination that is adapted to handle numerous situations within its type, and with the ability to excel at those things, is a Top Tier Bey.
Again, this is just the definition I go by.
(Also, I'm fairly certain everything involving tournaments is what constitutes the "Metagame".)
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Dan - Aug. 26, 2011
The strongest attack wheel is good in a/the metagame. no matter what.
Longest spinning stamina wheels? idk it could be more dependent on the bottoms tbh but again, yeah it would be good. no matter what x2. I mean, it wouldn't lose to lesser quality stamina wheels in that current metagame so yeah, it would be good.
I agree with the general gist of the thread which basically trying to clear up common questions about 'the' metagame.
Hazel: I love you man, we need more new members like you! lol
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Polyow - Aug. 26, 2011
(Aug. 26, 2011 10:35 PM)Hazel Wrote: Technically, at least by my definition(and the one that seems to be most-applied here), a Top-Tier Attack/Defense/Stamina is defined by its ability to consistently surpass the performance of other combinations in its category while also having a smaller number of counters than potentially better combos with more narrow applications.
Simply put, a combination that is adapted to handle numerous situations within its type, and with the ability to excel at those things, is a Top Tier Bey.
Again, this is just the definition I go by.
(Also, I'm fairly certain everything involving tournaments is what constitutes the "Metagame".)
This, but on the other hand, if there would be a wheel that counters basalt very very very hard, then that could be seen as top-tier because it counters a big chunk of the metagame (cry cry basalt over-use) but, it isn't necessarily something that's best in it's category...
Also, metagame varies depending on location, so that should be taken into account too.....
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Shabalabadoo - Aug. 26, 2011
Dan, take the Italian metagame for example. They're attack oriented; when there's two attack types, does the one with the strongest attack always win?
yeah i agree on the stamina. just want to put out here, the way stamina used to be with earth and burn : 85> 90-145. 145>(well at the beginning)230.
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Hazel - Aug. 26, 2011
(Aug. 26, 2011 10:40 PM)Polyow Wrote:(Aug. 26, 2011 10:35 PM)Hazel Wrote: Technically, at least by my definition(and the one that seems to be most-applied here), a Top-Tier Attack/Defense/Stamina is defined by its ability to consistently surpass the performance of other combinations in its category while also having a smaller number of counters than potentially better combos with more narrow applications.
Simply put, a combination that is adapted to handle numerous situations within its type, and with the ability to excel at those things, is a Top Tier Bey.
Again, this is just the definition I go by.
(Also, I'm fairly certain everything involving tournaments is what constitutes the "Metagame".)
This, but on the other hand, if there would be a wheel that counters basalt very very very hard, then that could be seen as top-tier because it counters a big chunk of the metagame (cry cry basalt over-use) but, it isn't necessarily something that's best in it's category...
Also, metagame varies depending on location, so that should be taken into account too.....
For me, in this case, it's not just how well it performs against Basalt - it's how easily it's countered by everything else. If you have a Bey with a 100% no questions asked win ratio against most, or all, Basalt combos(assuming proper usage), but it gets bent over the knee by most other things, it's not even a question - it's not top tier. It's a specialized counter, and nothing more.
If your whole tournament can be completely thrown by people using things other than Basalt combos, your Bey is not a Top Tier anything.
(Mind, obviously the scenario I described is not one likely to be possible, but it's intended as a hypothetical example, not something reality applies to.)
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Polyow - Aug. 26, 2011
Hazel, (not quoting or we'll get VERY big quotes ;p)
I'm just saying that it's not only "bey A works good as category attack"=top tier..
There are other factors wich should be taken into account, like
let's say "Bey X" is used by 80% of the bladers and "Bey Z" completely counters "Bey X", but loses to anything else, then Bey Z could still be seen as very strong in competitive play, while being a pretty bad bey.... (I know this isn't realistic, it's just an example)
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Dan - Aug. 26, 2011
(Aug. 26, 2011 10:42 PM)Shabalabadoo Wrote: Dan, take the Italian metagame for example. They're attack oriented; when there's two attack types, does the one with the strongest attack always win?
That is really a toss up; if it has more weight, then yeah it will win more often than not.
Vice versa would be different though, but I would put more bets on the attack wheel with more attack power. If you put the two at around the same weight, I'm certain the one with more attack would win.
I think the italians are more concerned with Basalt 230CS at the moment now anyway.
lol
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - RustyXD - Aug. 28, 2011
I remember asking a similar question to Kai-V a while back. Stamina wheels with the best solo spin times aren't particularly the best for stamina take burn for example it has great stamina but is beaten by many other stamina wheels with less solo spin time then it. The best attack wheels are not the best under all circumstances take something like beat for example it has more sheer attack then LDD but LDD's left spinning advantage helps it deal with more combos.
If the tier list was based upon what is the best in all situations HF/S would be on the list as it works well in tournament situations , and something like RS would not be on the list as it can only beat right spin attack , although things like beat Beat RS anyway. The list also has the best pure defense combos with RSF and RS , but CS is usually the only one used now'days due to how good it is in all situations and it is not the best at defense compared to the other top tier defense bottoms.
So i think the Top Tier List is a mix of combos that are versatile and that can only beat a specific type (RS).Things like Flame can beat basalt but can't beat anything else. Hope my post made sense I am really tired but I will explain further and easier to understand later.
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Cygnus - Aug. 28, 2011
Rusty has a great point. I think the Top Tier list is about the Beys that can beat the other Top Tier Beys. For example, like RustyXD said, Flame can beat Basalt, but can't beat anything else. So I think Flame shouldn't be used competitively as it can only beat Basalt. So it shouldn't be on the Top Tier list. I think Basalt should be on it because it can be good against all other Beys. It defends against Attack and it can sometimes out spin stamina.
The Top Tier list should just have Beys that can, most of the time, win.
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Janstarblast - Aug. 28, 2011
Well, Hazel's definition is what I've been following.
I simply couldn't put it into words like he did. Well, this is seriously a very important thing to know...
Top tiers, IMO are what give the best performance in a certain category, i.e. Attack/Defense/Stamina.
I'll bring in the performance tips here-
The fastest bey is simply not the best attacker.
The bey with the ability to stay in the center and avoid KOs is simply not the best at defense.
The bey with extremely high solo spin time is not the best stamina.
Well, the Q tip, although not the 'fastest' has got speed. Still, it isn't top tier.
WD is the best example for Defense.
MS, has amazing solo spin time, but does that make it top tier?
Every top tier needs to go through various performance tests before it gets that title.
It has to perform better than most other parts of the same category, as Hazel said. Now, consider this-
For attack, a wheel needs powerful smash, less recoil, good speed, passable stamina. Also, each and every part in the combo should compliment each other's performance perfectly. You are certainly not using Lightning with a DS tip on. Why? This is because its a waste of Lightning's attack potential. This would mean that it would easily be beaten by powerful combos of the same/different categories. In the same way, its also based upon which opponent you are facing. A top tier needs to beat most commonly used combos, so one needs to consider all the bad traits of those combos, so that a top tier could be made. As this is an era of HTDC and HTSC, even Attackers started using a higher track instead of their traditional low tracks. Thanks to tracks like CH120 and BD145, attack combos had no threats from LTAC/LTDC/LTSC, if there are any being used atm.
Secondly, certain parts in a certain type lose their top tier status due to better options. They can beat most combos, but new options kick them out from the tier list. WB is the biggest example one can find. Yes, WB would not perform as well against combos we have today. I explained that above(depends on opponents).
Defense is completely weight based, IMO so there is hardly one can talk about here.
Now about stamina- solo spin time(SST) does matter, but not always. Every S tip rocks in SST but balance issues have cost them a lot. Stamina is based on weight distribution and also the ability to take enough attacks. But, every stamina part needs consideration, as weight distribution is good in most wheels, but only some perform well in stamina. For the tips, a stamina saving tip is chosen, which also has great balance and survival abilities. Eternal tips are finding a way in, as it was found that WD based stamina was quite easy to KO, compared to EDS based Stamina.
I have kept this thingy centered around attack, as I think that's the only category which needs MASSIVE amount of work when making a top tier. For Defense, there's Basalt, so its quite simple to make combos there. Then for stamina, I don't have much knowledge in that category, so yeah.
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Shika blade - Aug. 28, 2011
The combo with the current best win loss ratio, against manybothers, not speciallizing in only one, and follows the chart, and the sometimes win against the chart, defence beats stamina attk beat defence... LLD 230CS would be an example of something that speciallizes in only a single combo, and suck against others. Top tier beys will also need to be extremely verstile. Thats all.
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - travisawesome - Sep. 04, 2011
A Top-Tier IMO need to be ready for deadly dilemmas and be ready for versatility.Take Gravity Perseus for example.Its dual spin makes it viable for spin stealing and creating fabulous KOs.
This is very necessary just in case you take on something like Basalt Kerbecs 230CS, an example of two game-breaking parts combined in a combo.It also needs to defy certain chances.Therefore, they need to be diverse in different types.
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Arupaeo - Sep. 04, 2011
I believe that top tier should be defined as the best (and second maybe third best) combo that beats a "basket" of other top tier beys as compared to other beys in its category.
For example, the current top tier has 9 combos listed (http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Competitive-Metal-Fight-Beyblade-Combos--20386)
In evaluating the potential addition of Beat Lynx to the Attack list (not unlikely) Beat Lynx would be tested against all 9 beyblades in the current top tier - and Lightning L-Drago and Gravity Perseus would be tested against the other top tier combos as well.
Lets pretend that we did this testing, and pretend that the results were as follows:
BL 7/9 (78% win rate)
LLD 6/9 (67% win rate)
GP 5/9 (56% win rate)
We now have a clear cut case for adding Beat Lynx to the top tier list and maybe dropping Gravity Perseus off the list. (If we did the same kind of testing for VariAres, Blitz, and other new beys, I strongly suspect that we might end up with an entirely new top tier for attack wheels...)
For Defense we would do the same basket-based testing for Scythe Kronos and compare it to the results from Basalt, Libra and Earth. Again, the 2-3 combos within a category with the highest win percentage (even if that win percentage is less than 50%) deserve a place on the top tier list - and the others do not, no matter how much we "like" them.
For a piece of WBO-sanctioned guidance as important as the top tier list, I strongly believe that objective, comparative testing is the best measure to be used. As well respected as some of the veterans may be, a subjective opinion only speaks to that member's opinion - while objective results speak for themselves.
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - .:J:. - Sep. 04, 2011
basically this is what i feel:
Let's say you have Basalt horogium, LLD and scythe kronos.
It doesn't only depend on, if it's stamina it spins longer. If it's attack, it's the strongest. if it's defence it can take more hits. It's more complicated then that with the effects of recoil and balance. if you have a really good stamina wheel, but with terrible balance, then it won't spin longer, as it will wobble and scrape. if you have a metal wheel which is too strong, it might stadium out, or run out of stamina too fast etc. with defence if it's too heavy it could easily topple over and if it has too much recoil stadium out etc.
I feel that a top-tier combo should be a beyblade which isn't too overpowered, but has a specialty, like an attack bey, which has more stamina, a stamina bey with more balance, a defence bey with less recoil and more stamina etc. so that you can get rid of the bad parts about a beyblade, and replace it with good parts, so that you can get a top-tier beyblade which is ok at everything, and great at attack, defence, stamina.
well that's just what i feel about top-tier combos.
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - NLGrocket - Sep. 08, 2011
(Sep. 04, 2011 4:29 PM)Nwolf Wrote: basically this is what i feel:
Let's say you have Basalt horogium, LLD and scythe kronos.
It doesn't only depend on, if it's stamina it spins longer. If it's attack, it's the strongest. if it's defence it can take more hits. It's more complicated then that with the effects of recoil and balance. if you have a really good stamina wheel, but with terrible balance, then it won't spin longer, as it will wobble and scrape. if you have a metal wheel which is too strong, it might stadium out, or run out of stamina too fast etc. with defence if it's too heavy it could easily topple over and if it has too much recoil stadium out etc.
I feel that a top-tier combo should be a beyblade which isn't too overpowered, but has a specialty, like an attack bey, which has more stamina, a stamina bey with more balance, a defence bey with less recoil and more stamina etc. so that you can get rid of the bad parts about a beyblade, and replace it with good parts, so that you can get a top-tier beyblade which is ok at everything, and great at attack, defence, stamina.
well that's just what i feel about top-tier combos.
Nearly everything you said was true. However, basalt has alot of recoil and it is still top tier. Combos like LLD BD145LRF (basically all rubber bottom based attack types) have terrible stamina and, if the attack type was facing a heavier attack type, LLD would be KOed. So, with this said, LLD BD145LRF only has the strength to be top tier attack.
And yet it is still one of the most versatile attack combos in the metagame. It is not great at attack, defense, AND stamina as you said. But it IS top tier.
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Serotonin - Sep. 08, 2011
(Sep. 04, 2011 4:08 PM)Arupaeo Wrote: I believe that top tier should be defined as the best (and second maybe third best) combo that beats a "basket" of other top tier beys as compared to other beys in its category.
For example, the current top tier has 9 combos listed (http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Competitive-Metal-Fight-Beyblade-Combos--20386)
In evaluating the potential addition of Beat Lynx to the Attack list (not unlikely) Beat Lynx would be tested against all 9 beyblades in the current top tier - and Lightning L-Drago and Gravity Perseus would be tested against the other top tier combos as well.
Lets pretend that we did this testing, and pretend that the results were as follows:
BL 7/9 (78% win rate)
LLD 6/9 (67% win rate)
GP 5/9 (56% win rate)
We now have a clear cut case for adding Beat Lynx to the top tier list and maybe dropping Gravity Perseus off the list. (If we did the same kind of testing for VariAres, Blitz, and other new beys, I strongly suspect that we might end up with an entirely new top tier for attack wheels...)
For Defense we would do the same basket-based testing for Scythe Kronos and compare it to the results from Basalt, Libra and Earth. Again, the 2-3 combos within a category with the highest win percentage (even if that win percentage is less than 50%) deserve a place on the top tier list - and the others do not, no matter how much we "like" them.
For a piece of WBO-sanctioned guidance as important as the top tier list, I strongly believe that objective, comparative testing is the best measure to be used. As well respected as some of the veterans may be, a subjective opinion only speaks to that member's opinion - while objective results speak for themselves.
This is how I have always felt we should test for top tier placings, but this is impossible at the moment because the way we test is fundamentally flawed, at least, with regards to this particular proposal. The biggest hindrance to this is we measure an Attack customisation's success against a Defense customisation, while we also test Defense customisations against Attack ones to gauge their effectiveness. There's arguably little value in testing customisations against their advantageous type such as Attack vs Stamina, but right now I don't think the system we have currently allows for particularly accurate top tier organisation either.
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Arupaeo - Sep. 10, 2011
(Sep. 08, 2011 12:41 PM)♥ Wrote: This is how I have always felt we should test for top tier placings, but this is impossible at the moment because the way we test is fundamentally flawed, at least, with regards to this particular proposal. The biggest hindrance to this is we measure an Attack customisation's success against a Defense customisation, while we also test Defense customisations against Attack ones to gauge their effectiveness. There's arguably little value in testing customisations against their advantageous type such as Attack vs Stamina, but right now I don't think the system we have currently allows for particularly accurate top tier organisation either.
Well, if impossible under the current official testing regimen perhaps an unofficial testing regimen can add value as a live counterexample.
I have no interest in undermining the official top tier list, so I won't make a thread for this. But I will do the testing as I described above, and perhaps send the results to you and other interested members of the committee.
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Sniper Kid - Jan. 21, 2012
Attack types are meant to beat stamina types, but can our current top-tier combos defeat the current stamina types? Stamina types are meant to beat Defense types, but can our stamina types defeat our defense type combos like basalt230cs? i mean can our stamina types defeat those types of combos for sure? or maybe depending to our launch, if that so our other defense types should be considered stamina types since it can beat stamina types?attack types vs attack types i can say is just luck, other attack types against another, at some times, the other wins at some times the other lose.Why? because attack types are not meant to be defeating another attack type.That is why there is stamina and defense and balance.Do you get what i mean? it's like battling stamina to stamina, sometimes the other wins, sometimes the other does, but there are attack types to beat stamina types, but the problem is can our attack types ''surely'' defeat stamina types?and can our stamina types ''surely'' defeat defense types while can our defense ''surely'' defeat attack types, or all just by luck.I guess probably no right? so we better find combos that surely defeat what it was meant to defeat? But i guess it's not possible isn't it? With that what does top-tier beys truly for? Or is it just the strongest attack type combo for our metagame and can't beat others surely? I think you get what i mean right?
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Kujikato - Jan. 21, 2012
It's about being able to defeat it's weakness type with a higher win rate than other beys of its type IMO;
Eg. MF VariAres CH120 RF got the best results against it's general counter, MF-H Duo Aquario BD145 RDF, than Blitz, Beat, Hell, or whatever. thus making it the Top Tier Attack.
MF-H Duo Aquario BD145 RDF on the other hand can stand a slight chance against MF-L Phantom/Duo Cancer/Aquario B:D/BD145 EDS/AD145 WD/SWD
Whereas the stamina combos get better results than something like Earth Bull 100 WD vs VariAres, thus making it the top tier of it's game.
makes sense? somewhat?
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Sniper Kid - Jan. 21, 2012
So i guess with what you said Izuma Inzori, the question has been answered. Or was it a wrong defenition?
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Kujikato - Jan. 21, 2012
ask le committee, they have the final call in ALL things
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - th!nk - Jan. 21, 2012
(Jan. 21, 2012 1:00 PM)Izuma Inzori Wrote: It's about being able to defeat it's weakness type with a higher win rate than other beys of its type IMO;
Eg. MF VariAres CH120 RF got the best results against it's general counter, MF-H Duo Aquario BD145 RDF, than Blitz, Beat, Hell, or whatever. thus making it the Top Tier Attack.
MF-H Duo Aquario BD145 RDF on the other hand can stand a slight chance against MF-L Phantom/Duo Cancer/Aquario B/BD145 EDS/AD145 WD/SWD
Whereas the stamina combos get better results than something like Earth Bull 100 WD vs VariAres, thus making it the top tier of it's game.
makes sense? somewhat?
Actually, Stamina is generally tested against other stamina, while attack and defence are tested against each other, with defence also being tested against other defence combos. If stamina were decided by testing against attack, they'd all be using CS, hah.
Also, I hope those examples are just examples, because they're not really correct. Duo Aquario BD145RDF stands barely any chance against stamina, Tiers don't refer to single beyblades, they refer to a group of beyblades with similar prowess. Blitz and Variares are very similar in terms of winrates, while the next one down the list, Beat, does significantly worse.
Tiers are separated based on an abrupt difference in performance, generally.
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Kujikato - Jan. 21, 2012
Aye, sorry forgot about the testing standards.
EDIT:
It's about being able to defeat it's weakness type with a higher win rate than other beys of its type IMO;
Eg. MF VariAres CH120 RF and MF-H Blitz Unicorno II 85 RF get the best results against the general defense, MF-H Duo Aquario BD145 RDF, than Beat or whatever. thus making it the Top Tier Attack.
MF-H Duo Aquario BD145 RDF goes against MF VariAres CH120 RF/MF-H Blitz Unicorno II 85 RF and does a number on both
Whereas Phantom/Duo Cancer/Aquario B: D/AD145 WD\SWD/BD145 EDS defeat every other stamina type, making it the Stamina powerhouse.
any better?
RE: What Makes A Top Tier? - Chaos Blader - Jan. 21, 2012
From what I remember, back before the Maximum Series. The competitive Metal Fight Beyblade combos thread was not a list of top-tier Beyblades, but a: " ... list of currently competitive combos in the Metal Fight Beyblade metagame." being mostly based around what people were using to success in tournaments. The reason why Storm Pegasis 100RF stayed on the list for so long, was because even though it was outclassed, it was still winning tournaments.