World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc.
[Plastics] :: Random Thoughts/Parts Discussion Thread - Printable Version

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+---- Thread: [Plastics] :: Random Thoughts/Parts Discussion Thread (/Thread-Plastics-Random-Thoughts-Parts-Discussion-Thread)

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - Ultra - Jul. 17, 2012

Well I wouldn't say that but be wary. Also look at the AR and think about it. It has no decent contact points whatsoever.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - Sparta - Jul. 17, 2012

Oh, sorry I meant to say base. I kinda figured the AR would be pretty 'pointless' (Get my pun? Tongue_out), but I thought maybe the base could be decent, or at least be salvageable.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - Hazel - Jul. 19, 2012

(Jul. 17, 2012  11:26 PM)Sparta Wrote: Oh, sorry I meant to say base. I kinda figured the AR would be pretty 'pointless' (Get my pun? Tongue_out), but I thought maybe the base could be decent, or at least be salvageable.

...the blade base is Flat... it is useless.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - Sparta - Jul. 22, 2012

Okay, time to revive discussion. I remember th!nk saying a while back that Dan used to use a takara MG WD for his zombies, but it's widely outclassed by wide defense. Well I was toying with my own zombie the other day using the MG WD and, maybe this is just luck, but it beat my uncustomized Driger V2 hand-spun (And yes, I realize that this is exactly the point of a zombie custom. I just find this one worked especially well with stealing spin power). I really think this WD has potential. Here's the combo:
AR: Tiger Defenser
WD: Takara MG WD
SG: Left SG Casings from Dragoon V2
Shaft: BK Bearing
Although my BK bearing tends to act a little more aggressive (And when I say little, I mean a lot), this combo worked amazingly well for me. the WD was just big enough that nothing on Tiger Defenser was sticking out, but the contact points could still hit their mark and steal spin. I really want some advanced testing done for this (Unless it's already been tried) but for me at least, this combo was surprisingly and marvelously effective. Once my tornado attack stadium arrives, I'm going to do some official testing of my own with this against better combos (My Voltaic Ape will have arrived by then as well (Tuesday), so I'll add that to a smash attack combo), and compare it to the wide defense I'll be getting soon as well, and see what I find. There's always the possibility I'm wrong, but so far this thing really works.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - th!nk - Jul. 22, 2012

No no, he didn't use it for zombies, he used it for a spin stealer. Zombies REQUIRE wide survivor and defense, nothing else works.

I've tested that exact combination myself (using the best possible SP), it's only a spin stealer and loses to a lot of non-bearing combos a proper zombie wouldn't. The definition is a little blurry at times but yeah.

The closest thing you can get to a zombie without wide defense/survivor is MG WD or 10 Wide on a Spiral Change Base, and even that isn't a very reliable combination.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - Sparta - Jul. 22, 2012

Oh, okay. I don't know what the difference between wide defense and wide survivor is, but based on your blogs' pictures it looks like Wide Defense has some extra bumps on it. Is one or the other better for Zombie customization?

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - Ultra - Jul. 22, 2012

They look quite different tbh. The reason that survivor is better is that it is perfectly round.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - th!nk - Aug. 30, 2012

It's still real close though. The weight you trade off for that roundness is pretty significant. Wide Survivor is definitely better but wide defense is absolutely a top-tier zombie WD.
My competitive combo list is nearing completion, I think I have everything noted down, I just need to test a few obscure things things and tidy it up.

Anyway I'm posting to say quickly that while I love my force smash combo, and still consider it a top tier setup, if you don't have a strong launch compared to your opponent it might not work well. Force Smash is in an awkward place where it needs the survival and aggression of wide defense but wishes it could have the RPM of 10 Heavy. Basically, when testing if you launch it second against anything balance or non-zombie defense, it'll get 80-100%, but if you launch it first, that winrate drops down to somewhere around 30%.

What happens is that when launched second it has a lower RPM for obvious reasons, something not helped by the rubber tip (though as I've mentioned, it absolutely needs a rubber tip or it won't work at all), which means it gets destabilized by opponents and its hits don't do much.
This results in very low winrates against anything with a fairly low recoil AR and passable stamina (it'll still take out most attackers I've tried)

If they'd made a better force smash AR it would likely be less of an issue, but smash turtle has only got small slopes so it needs the RPM and movement speed to work well, and if not its size means it gets destabilized, while Wing Survivor has slightly better slopes but suffers from recoil issues, and nothing else I've tried (and I've tried basically everything I own) has way too much recoil.

Basically in a tournament situation it means you need a strong launch and a reliable (non skipping) launcher (meaning my power custom doesn't help). Of course, if you have this it will likely beat everything that isn't a sort of zombie (and against non-defensive zombies you still have a small chance to KO), and even without it it'll still beat anything with an aggressive AR or poor stamina, but you should look elsewhere for your general use beyblade.

I'm not 100% sure on this yet as I haven't had a chance to test with anyone who can launch stronger than me, but I will either get my father to help me out tomorrow or get a member of my extended family to do so on the weekend. I'd hold off posting but I might forget otherwise.

I'd like to see how Ariel 2's Base works with it (as you'd need to use the actual base to use an HMC) but I'm really, really not willing to risk it.... I'm confident it'd do at least as good as CGB but I'm pretty sure everyone understands if I'm not willing to try it out... I might make a note on the competitive combos list that it probably works well, but it will likely never be tested, as Customize Grip Base works very well anyway.

... Or I might see if I have all the pieces of my broken one and attempt to stick them back together for long enough to test a couple of things.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - th!nk - Sep. 01, 2012

Okay, my dad helped me out with that testing. Brought back a lot of wonderful memories of us blading back in the day.

Sadly though, looks like my Force Smash combo does need the stronger launch to beat compacts and likely a lot of other things as well. If you have the stronger launch its coverage is basically unmatched, and it can still do okay if you don't, so I'll leave it on the competitive combos list I'm writing but I think I'll have to look for another combo to rely on, especially with the self-KO issues of CGB.

On the upside, Dad was chuffed to have won, hah.

EDIT: Now playing around with a concept for force smash using engine gears. I know I said it wasn't possible but there's a chance I may have overlooked something, though it may be nothing, and Dragoon GT's CEW may be a major component so it's not exactly accessible. It's based on boosting RPM with the engine gear, though the initial idea was using Reverse EG, Metal Grip CEW and a Normal Base, with the idea of having the tip grip the stadium so the top half got spun by the EG increasing its RPM, but it didn't work out, and a Customize Right EG is currently working better, I guess through speeding up the whole beyblade or something (Left EG was a failure). It didn't work with EG's I've used in the past though I will retry those in a little.

EDIT 2: Didn't work well enough. Managed to come up with a combo that was beating compacts and circle survivor defense pretty well but it couldn't handle Semi Flat Base properly which means there'll be other stuff it'll struggle with, and all the tweaking I had time to try didn't work. The grip tip was absolutely required, using something actually aggressive like Gaia Dragoon G's EG let it do better against the semi flat base combo but it got absolutely walloped by the compact.

On the up side, I think I've worked out how final clutch bases actually work, and if not that then at least how to release them without launching a beyblade. That said I'm still looking into it.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - Ultra - Sep. 02, 2012

Discovered two new recolours after looking at a plastics booklet I have:

Gold Dranzer V2
Grey Gaia dragoon V

Both remarkably rare i'm sure. Also there are red and yellow recolours of Gaia Dragoon V which are of the same scarceness. Seen then on YJA once.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - th!nk - Sep. 02, 2012

Are you sure they were actual recolors? I know the spin up guidebooks use a lot of paint-job beyblades. Heck there's even a grey griffolyon in there lol.

I'm assuming you have pictures of them, would you be able to scan them in? Curious to see for myself, haha. I'm not sure if it was you who mentioned the yellow/red gaia dragoon v to me, I was aware of the red one from somewhere. Wanted one but then realised that given I hadn't even seen one I should focus on something more obtainable, heh.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - Ultra - Sep. 02, 2012

It does have other limited beys next to them in the pictures (Red Dragoon V2 and Spike Lizard). Luckily enough this YJA lot has at least part of the grey Gaia Dragoon V:

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - th!nk - Sep. 02, 2012

Looks like all the AR parts are there
... And a yellow spike lizard?!

Again, sure those aren't repaints there? There's what looks like a repainted driger v2 in there.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - Ultra - Sep. 02, 2012

Scroll down to Gaia Dragoon V one. Booyah sucker!

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - th!nk - Sep. 02, 2012

Oh darn it's gunmetal?

I'd kill a man for that beyblade, no joke.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - Tris - Sep. 02, 2012

Wow... That's actually a pretty cool recolor, both of them. Thanks for the info Ultra! Hah.

But like Th!nk said, is it possible if we could have scans, or pictures of the booklet?

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - Ultra - Sep. 02, 2012

Will do when i've got the time which will be in a few days.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - th!nk - Sep. 02, 2012

On a more part-related note, judging from this page:

Text seems to say only the AR of Zinrai etc is legal, but the whole ZEO/Avairon beyblade is. Makes sense, and the same would go for Griffolyon and Salamalyon.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - Kai Hiwatari - Sep. 03, 2012

(Sep. 02, 2012  8:10 PM)Ultra Wrote:

Scroll down to Gaia Dragoon V one. Booyah sucker!

omg I just want to go on a Plastic buying spree after seeing all of that.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - th!nk - Sep. 03, 2012

(Sep. 03, 2012  7:37 AM)Kai Hiwatari Wrote:
(Sep. 02, 2012  8:10 PM)Ultra Wrote:

Scroll down to Gaia Dragoon V one. Booyah sucker!

omg I just want to go on a Plastic buying spree after seeing all of that.

You got the full kai username, I think you're obligated to do something like that.

On a part related note: Not sure how to classify Circle Survivor Defense combos that use Zeus's base, as it stops the free-spin, which fixes the unreliability against same spin, but you lose some defense against low smash attackers (though I've yet to KO it with anything but my insane attacker) and a fair bit of ability to OS left spin combos compared to using Wolborg 4's base (both with Rock Bison EG). More of a stamina combo than a defense one, but then it still shuts down upper and takes hits really well. The Base setup is also one of the absolute heaviest in the generation, IIRC the only thing that out-weighs it is Draciel S's base with 4 metal balls AND impractically large base clips.... I guess since it still works best with wing cross (out of what I've currently tested) and only does ok with smash turtle (weight isn't centred enough, haven't really tried 10 heavy but the stamina tradeoff couldn't be worth it, especially with such a small combo where smash turtle would struggle to make contact)...

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - th!nk - Sep. 04, 2012

Almost every time I go to write/fix an article expecting it to be easy, I realise something hasn't been tested, and when I test it it works well, and suddenly the article becomes complex.

Driger V2 is today's surprise. Realised I hadn't personally tried the Upper Claw AR on CGB without Upper Attack SP, for smash. Guess I assumed Triple Tiger would leave it in the dust or it would always work better with the SP or something. Used Defense Ring.

Damn thing worked.

Not sure if it's better than triple tiger, it has less recoil and as a result better stamina so when it does get a destabilising hit in (as while it's tall, it's often at an angle) it utilises the advantage better. While it has less contact area due to the larger wings, the spikes at the backs of the heads provide some additional smash (as can be seen by the wear and hits of varying power), though that is still its primary disadvantage.

I was about to sit down for 20 round tests and then mum went to bed. Hopefully I'll have the energy left to do it in the morning, but I was expecting to have driger v2 updated in a couple of hours, which is now definitely not happening. :C

Didn't even do too bad in left spin. Had decent stamina so it could spin-steal against some stuff to win, though there are waaaayyyy better choices for that kind of thing.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - th!nk - Sep. 06, 2012

Okay I finished my testing of Triple Tiger/Upper Claw on Customize Grip Base, and it's included in this post, but as I discussed HERE I'm having a lot of consistency trouble with my attack launches lately and I'm not convinced these results are completely accurate.

As such, I'd really appreciate it if someone else could reproduce these tests with the same/similar attack combo and a similar opponent - either the same or SG Semi Flat+HMC instead of Metal Ball Base. I suspect Triple Tiger can do a lot better than it did, and I'm not convinced the last few rounds with upper claw were good enough either. It shouldn't be too hard a test to reproduce as the parts I used are common competitive parts.

Testing Combo (Attack):
AR: Upper Claw/Triple Tiger
WD: Wide Defense
SG: Neo Right SG
SG Core: South Magnecore
SP: Defense Ring
BB: Customize Grip Base
Tip: Customize Grip Base

AR: Tiger Defenser
WD: Ten Heavy
BB: Metal Ball Base (4 Metal Balls)

2x Right EZ Shooter - No Skipping Issues (Important).
2x Dragon Winder
Stadium: Tornado Attack Stadium
Attacker always launches second, Sliding Shot. Compact straight launch. Draws redone.
Upper Claw is Mold One – more breakage, probably slightly less recoil.

Key: UC=Upper Claw, C=Compact, KO/OS you know, DKO=Double KO, DS=Double Stoppage (i.e both combos died at the same time), SKOOS = Simultaneous KO and OS (yeah I had one of those, not uncommon in plastics) (combo stops spinning as opponent leaves the stadium).

Upper Claw vs Compact
Upper Claw: 17/20 (10KO, 7OS)
Compact: 3/20 (3OS)
Draws: 1 DKO
Notes: A couple of the KO's were upper, all OS's were upper.

Triple Tiger vs Compact
Triple Tiger: 14/20 (9KO, 5OS)
Compact: 6/10 (5OS, 1KO)
Draws: 3 (2DS, 1 SKOOS – TT KO'd and stopped as the compact left the stadium.)
Notes: Not happy with my launching. Triple Tiger had more recoil (the one time it got KO'd was a direct result of this) it's upper was perhaps slightly more effective but noticeably less common, because its slopes start higher.

Win% = Win/Total
KO% = KO/Win
OS% = OS/Win

UC: Win%=85% KO%=58.82% OS%=41.14%
TT: Win%=70% KO%=64.29% OS%=31.71%

Overall Notes: Perhaps I should've chosen a more defensive opponent as MBB is a fairly stamina-oriented compact base (perhaps surprisingly). Oh well.
The reason I doubt my launching with Triple Tiger is because I know it's one of, if not the best, AR's for CGB (not counting Upper Claw, of course) and it should definitely get higher than 70%, and a lot more KO's.
For now I'm still calling them even. There's also the issue of SP – I used defense ring to keep it out of the equation, but triple tiger has amazing synergy with Survivor Ring, which is also the best attacking SP I've tried (i.e. only twin guard could be better), and while upper claw has reverse attack and fin tectors, the issues I noted about aggro sp in the Dragoon V2 article are only made more relevant on an attacker that is winning through close OS's – they absolutely should NOT be used. Twin Guard could do for it what Survivor Ring does for Triple Tiger but I cannot verify that until I have mine, though the information I do have suggests it would. But, Twin Guard is much, much rarer than survivor ring so that plays into it.
For now I'm calling them Equal though. Upper Claw uses smash less reliably because it has less contact points, only two major ones vs three, but it has more minor contact points, triple tiger has barely any while Upper Claw has the spikes at the back of the heads.

Will test in straight upper attack customs in a little, if I get time.

EDIT: Actually while I'm here I'm going to try to test all upper attack AR's as conventional upper attack is much easier to test than smash. Might not get them all done, but I'm noticing that Triple Tiger is actually pretty bad for regular upper. It has pretty short, steep slopes that start much higher than the others. Very much a Smash AR (one of the best) but I'm wholly unconvinced by its upper attack. I mean, yes it has it, no argument there, but so do a lot of AR's, and it doesn't have the stamina to utilise it.
Going to try to test whale crusher too because it showed potential the other day, width compensates for height, basically. Will also do some left spin tests tomorrow to resolve some other questions (I kinda suspect upper dragoon may be the best upper ar for both spin directions).

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - Ultra - Sep. 06, 2012

Just to be certain is the base from Draciel MBD or Draciel S cause the only difference between the two names is a word. And also I don't think I own Draciel MBD though I might have one. I don't have a Tornado Attack stadium either.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - th!nk - Sep. 06, 2012

It's a compact, so it could only be MBD. SG Semi Flat+HMC would work decently (surprisingly less stamina though).

Also, an additional note: Wow, conventional upper is apalling compared to spin stealing upper. I guess I'm testing against a compact (which have high RPM thus cause upper issues, as well as this one having good LAD so being even more of an issue) but wow.

EDIT: Okay, yeah, upper attack is just doing horribly. Could someone else test like
AR: Upper Dragoon
WD: 10 Heavy
SG: Neo Right SG
SG Core: Heavy Metal Core
BB: Storm Grip Base
against a right spin compact like:

AR: Tiger Defenser
WD: 10 Heavy
And either
SG: Neo Right SG
SG Core: Heavy Metal Core
BB: SG Semi Flat Base
BB: SG Metal Ball (4 Metal Balls)

I'd really appreciate it. Results coming soon, two of my hunches seem to have paid off.

RE: Plastic Parts Discussion - th!nk - Sep. 06, 2012

Upper Attack Tests

Testing Combo (Upper Attack):
AR: Upper Claw/Triple Tiger/Upper Dragoon/Triangle Wing/Whale Crusher
WD: Ten Heavy
SG: Neo Right SG
SG Core: Heavy Metal Core
BB: Storm Grip Base

AR: Tiger Defenser
WD: Ten Heavy
BB: Metal Ball Base (4 Metal Balls)

2x Right EZ Shooter - No Skipping Issues (Important).
2x Dragon Winder
Stadium: Tornado Attack Stadium
Attacker always launches second, Sliding Shot. Compact straight launch. Draws redone.

Triple Tiger
Triple Tiger: 3/20 (All KO) = 15%
Compact : 17/20 (all OS) = 85%
only one KO looked really like upper, the other two were mainly smash.

Upper Dragoon
Upper Dragoon: 3/20 (all KO) = 15%
Compact: 17/20 (all OS) = 85%
... Wow. I thought it was just that Triple Tiger sucked, but then this happened. Eurgh.

Upper Claw
Upper Claw: 2/20 (all KO) = 10%
Compact: 18/20 (all OS) = 90%
Draws: 1DKO
Upper Claw's Upper Attack was actually pretty good. 5% off Triple Tiger, but that's not a big margin, and both KO's were upper. I'd say it probably is roughly as good as triple tiger overall, quite a surprise.

Triangle Wing
Triangle Wing: 1/20 (KO) = 5%
Compact: 19/20 (all OS) = 95%
Actually showed more upper than Upper Dragoon but couldn't KO for heck. Must try wide defense.

Whale Crusher
Whale Crusher: 5/20 (all KO) = 25%
Compact: 15/20 (all OS) = 75%
Wow, I didn't think it'd be better than Upper Dragoon or Triangle Wing. Width makes up for the lack of overhang, size adds some smash. Has slightly more recoil than Upper Dragoon/Triangle Wing (not sure about the others).

Upper Dragoon + Wide Defense
(Wide Defense used for Upper Attacker's WD instead of Ten Heavy)
Upper Dragoon: 4/20 (3KO 1OS) = 20%
Compact: 16/20 (all OS) =80%
Finally an OS! Upper Dragoon spent that whole round getting up in the compacts grill an reaped the benefits. Wide Defense struts its stuff, I was slightly surprised that it worked and I want to retest against a customize metal change base weight defender (with Smash Turtle) to see if the less centred weight distro causes issues there, based on the fact that using a magnecore in an upper attacker severely dents its ability to beat that combo, from previous testing.

Overall Thoughts:
Wow, conventional upper attack is appalling. Admittedly they do badly against compacts naturally because compacts have high rpm and Metal Ball Base has really good stamina for a compact base largely due to the fact it can rotate at ludicrous angles without suffering any noticeable issues or scraping (which itself causes issues for upper attackers), so upper attackers can't OS it easily either. Still, if you lose to compacts and circle survivor defense, two of the most commonly seen competitive types, you're going to have a rough time at tournaments.

Metal Ball Base certainly displayed why it's a top tier compact base. I thought it's comparatively rough underside would cause it issues but I guess not. Its ability to stay 'stable' at ridiculous angles really benefited it here, none of the conventional upper attackers could get it to scrape enough for an OS, though Wide Defense managed to net one.

Two of my hunches really paid off:
Wide Defense proved it was amazing for yet another type, meaning it's probably top-tier for everything except the one type that can't use it by definition – compacts (it doesn't work great on them, anyway). Hope to try some of the other AR's on it tomorrow, curious to see if Triple Tiger benefits from the additional smash ability it provides. It was also the only thing that managed to OS the compact at all, the stamina it offers is handy for a type that uses destabilisation so potently.

Whale Crusher was the biggest surprise, getting the best results of all. I knew it was decent but I really didn't expect it to do that well. Its size introduces additional smash, as well as some recoil concerns but it's got an HMC and rubber tip to sort that out. The slopes might not seem great at first but they're really long, and it has two separate slopes which surprisingly don't interfere with each other much, the massive width of the AR means it doesn't need to overhang the WD to get under opponents, the slope of the stadium means a point that far out on the AR is hitting at roughly the same height on the opponent as upper dragoon's slopes. The smash needed to KO after lifting comes from its width and the much steeper gradient at the end of its slopes. Again, I'm surprised it did so well, but it's not a total shock.

Where to from here?
1. Well, first off, someone else needs to reproduce these results to make sure it isn't just me.
Traditional Upper Attack.

2. Next, is others testing Whale Crusher. It's not an uncommon or expensive AR, so this shouldn't be too hard. Comparative tests with Upper Dragoon are necessary.

3. I need to test Whale Crusher with Wide Defense – as it introduces some smash, wide defense may benefit it further. This may also help me understand/explain rotational recoil and how to control it better – My current understanding is that rotational recoil is exactly what the flywheel effect counteracts, but then wider parts which would help the flywheel effect also give more leverage. I could ask someone who understands physics better but that's kinda a pain.

4. I need to examine Whale Crusher to work out what parts of its slopes are doing the KOing as it has a couple of different slopes that could be hitting. Wish I had a high speed camera :C

5. Wide Defense needs more testing as a regular upper attack WD. I believe it does better because while it while the RPM is lower, the upper is more forceful and there's more smash in it. This may work better with shorter, steeper slopes, which would explain Upper Dragoon being better than triple wing for spin stealing upper, as well as Triple Tiger working so well with Wide Survivor rather than wide defense for 'smash' – and that smash setup incorporates a lot of upper, despite the weight distro, which always puzzled me. Will test more tomorrow.

6. I should retest against a weaker opponent. The mere thought of redoing that much testing makes me feel ill but I guess I have to if I want to work out which upper attack AR is the best :C

7. Upper Dragoon and Triangle Wing should be tested for smash on CGB. Sounds odd, but the fact Upper Attack AR's follow the WD's curve is part of why Triple Tiger and Upper Claw work so well – Triple Tiger should have a lot more recoil than it does based on the size of its contact points but because it follows the beyblade's rotation, it hits "through" opponents. While Triangle Wing and Upper Dragoon don't expose their contact points as well as the Driger AR's, they may still have potential.

8. I need to work out whether triple tiger really deserves to be a top tier upper attack AR. This may become clearer when I do point 6 but that will still likely tell me little about just its upper attack. If it is using a combination of smash and upper, but is still highly effective in upper attack combos, then classification is a pain, though I guess it can be described in the article and it would still go on the competitive combos list.