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+--- Thread: Powerhouse or Prejudice? RDF in MFL Opinion Gauging (/Thread-Powerhouse-or-Prejudice-RDF-in-MFL-Opinion-Gauging)
Powerhouse or Prejudice? RDF in MFL Opinion Gauging - Cindercast - Aug. 19, 2024
![[Image: Two-Spiderman-Meme-Template-on-Pointing-...ther-1.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/QXHp9CrS/Two-Spiderman-Meme-Template-on-Pointing-at-Each-Other-1.jpg)
Rubber Defense Flat. The "unholy" and "malignant" choice that terrorizes the players of the Metal Fight Standard format. The setup of Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF is a very reliable combo that has brought the organization to outright clause the performance tip entirely. It has incredible offensive and defensive capabilities while also holding a very high seat in the equalizer department. Truly a sight to behold and indisputably one of the stronger releases from Metal Fight Beyblade. But does it still hold this same position in the Metal Fight Limited format?
RDF's partner BD145 is banned in MFL for good reason. This restricts RDF's ability to be potentially hyper defensive wall since no other track can effectively imitate BD145. Effectively the only option would it to be on lower tracks, right?
RDF's legalization and/or clause establishment seems to be an unvisited topic with the conclusion being "it's OP in Standard so don't legalize it in MFL" (at least in my interpretation). On September 1st, I will be hosting a completely unrestricted Metal Fight Limited event with RDF legal to gauge how much of a powerhouse the tip could be in a tournament setting. Before any of this happens, I would like the opinions of bladers familiar with the parts to share how they feel about RDF in Limited. Whether it should stay banned, have a clause, or any other take regarding RDF in Limited.
Tournament Link: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-The-All-Intensive-UBERS-Metagame--112821
(please keep it civil this is just data collecting)
RE: Powerhouse or Prejudice? RDF in MFL Opinion Gauging - MagikHorse - Aug. 20, 2024
Though I understand part of where you're coming from, there's more to RDFs power than just BD145. It's got the same defensive grip as tips like RSF and RS that excel in Limited, but adding in that much LAD could create some rather terrifying synergies with Limited's left spin options. Dark Knight based Defense could very well excel with it, taking down Flame 230 with enough aggression and outlasting most else... not to mention Gravity combos that could abuse it. Meteo L-Drago is perhaps it's biggest threat by being such a good equalizer, shoring up it's usually bad defenses and still doing it's job against most things. Might make the Flame 230 matchup worse, but it's Flame 230... you've already need a super good Meteo to beat that as is at low heights, just bring a different counter. Even Lightning L-Drago could probably use an aggressive enough copy of RDF to terrify opponents if given the chance and stands to gain a huge edge against traditional RF attackers in right spin. Without BD145, RDF can maximize its offenses in a way BD145 limits for strategies like that.
Given that there are many more viable left spin options in Limited including the best Equalizer in the game, and it's usually left spin that makes RDF viable and not any specific spin track synergies, I don't think RDF belongs in Limited's part pool whatsoever. Pure grip is fine, pure grip with maximum LAD is why RDF is broken and why it doesn't fit.
RE: Powerhouse or Prejudice? RDF in MFL Opinion Gauging - Cake - Aug. 20, 2024
I think it's fairly easy to see why RDF has such a centralizing and stifling effect on metagames it's introduced to by looking at what it is and, as a result, what it allows you to do with combos.
RDF is the fusion of a small rubber flat tip, similar to a relatively fresh RSF or a heavily worn RS, and a wide outer plastic ring for LAD, like WD and its many relatives.
RDF carries over:
+ Top tier grip from RSF and other rubber Tips for top tier Defense
+ Mild aggressive movement like RSF / worn RS to enable light Attack use and interrupt stalling opponents
+ Top tier LAD from WD and company to dominate most opposite-spin matchups
- Poor same-spin Stamina due to high grip, though still significantly better than the typical Attack options of RF, R²F, or LRF
RDF giving you the desirable defensive/Anti-Attack properties of already top-tier parts like RSF and RS with the added cherry on top of massively improved LAD makes it a no-brainer pick for any role that those Tips previously would have filled. You still will lose to the same threats in same-spin as before, but your Defense combo will outspin any opposite-spin opponent with less LAD - which now means almost everything, as only EWD, W²D, and B
have greater LAD, and even then by a narrow margin.This is a major problem with RDF. Its LAD, while not the best, is high enough that only a handful of parts are better, and those only by a narrow margin. CF, GCF, and GF can also potentially out-LAD RDF, but they generally need some other form of LAD advantage over the RDF combo to pull it off. RDF's LAD is close enough to the maximum possible in MFB that, by the very nature of opposite spin matches, it will force many battles where it technically is at a disadvantage to still end in a very, very close way, resulting in ties and/or the need for tedious match footage review. This compounds with another feature of RDF in these matchups - its Attack potential. All of the Tips that can OS RDF in opposite spin are vulnerable to Attack, and many combos that use RDF will have enough Attack power to potentially KO their would-be counters this way - and even if they fail, the high probability of the battle ending in an indecisive tie (or even a lucky OS for RDF) means that the RDF combo has extra chances to find that KO.
Fortunately, this all applies only in opposite-spin battles. In same spin, RDF is "only" comparable in performance to the most popular Defense (and off-meta Attack / Anti-Attack) tips...
But what if most of your opponents were opposite spin?
Limited's left-spin (and dual-spin) wheels LOVE RDF. Gravity and to a lesser extent Lightning are already controversial on low height RF as Attackers with extremely good Attack v Attack performance and enough LAD to win matchups vs Defense types. Switching to RDF costs them a significant amount of Attack power, but in exchange it gives higher same-spin Stamina (so they outspin other left-spin Attackers) and far greater LAD, so they maintain a clear edge vs the vast majority of the right-spin field, except for easily KOed Stamina tips like EWD etc and the much less easily KOed fellow RDF combos.
RDF is also the part L-Drago Guardian would *love* to have, as it synergizes well with its Anti-Attack playstyle while safely protecting it from its own rubber. Meteo, too, would enjoy having RDF as a more aggressive/defensive alternative to the typical EWD or CF combos.
In the end, what RDF does is enable players to create combos that are only really weak to same-spin opponents with at least moderate Defense and Stamina. They are great at covering a wide variety of matchups, soundly defeating Attack types in both directions, opposite spin Defense, and threatening Stamina types in both directions. As a powerful derivative of already top tier parts, RDF is very low-risk to use and offers potentially very high rewards. The avenues for reliable, safe counterplay are limited (and usually spin direction sensitive), so the metagame tends to be rather reactive to RDF specifically and can devolve deck-building into a guessing game as to which spin direction RDF will appear in (and so which way you need to prepare to counter). It also hurts the depth of the LAD metagame by being a strong Tip in many competitively relevant matchups in both spin directions with high enough LAD to outclass the vast majority of possible Tips and Track choices.
RDF doesn't make Defense any better at Defense, and it doesn't make opposite spin any better at LAD. What it does is centralize both of those parts of the metagame around a single part and force an increased number of battles to end in slow and ambiguous LAD contests. The combos that benefit from its introduction suddenly threaten much larger sections of the metagame than they did before, which dramatically reduces the variety of ways that you can respond. Different RDF combos also have significantly different matchup charts where one combo's strength could be another's weakness, so preparing for RDF is made even more difficult.
Don't let any of this discourage anyone from experimenting, and games with dubious or outright broken balance can still potentially be fun, but in my experience and testing, RDF's unique properties give it ultimately unpleasant effects on any metagame it can make use of them in.
Zero-G is safe from its dark influence, haha.
RE: Powerhouse or Prejudice? RDF in MFL Opinion Gauging - Shindog - Sep. 02, 2024
RDF was only used in maybe 2 matches before ppl took it out of there decks. Here is one of those matches (I mean the 1st event listed in the OP)
RDF in MFL tournament #1
https://youtu.be/1kiwKYkPWDo
Some quick testing I did a while back+some I am doing now:
MF-H Gravity Perseus 90RDF against some MFL combos
https://youtu.be/fADnET0yhPI
MF Gravity Perseus 85RDF vs MF-H Omega Horuseus 90R2F
https://youtu.be/D5y31_A6ohQ
MF-L Gravity Perseus (stamina) BD145RDF vs Screw Uranus DF105R2F
https://youtu.be/9humrYLIDpY
MF-L Gravity Perseus (stamina) BD145RDF vs Screw Susanow CH120RF
https://youtu.be/ullnKcfU8Y0
Mf-H Has L-Drago Guardian 90RDF and RSF vs MF-H Screw Uranus DF105R2F (fea. LAD showdown)
https://youtu.be/gR6twK2ARnY
MF-H L-Drago Guardian LW105RDF (much better LAD than 90 track but…) vs MF-H Pegasis Ch120RF
https://youtu.be/o561GwQ9dDI
MF-H L-Drago Guardian LW105RSF (better def than RDF but…) vs MF-H Pegasis Ch120RF
https://youtu.be/ZgaGDWQGBeU
MF-H Meteo L-Drago LW105RDF vs MF-H Pegasis CH120RF
https://youtu.be/ADSM7fDxLfo
MF-H Meteo L-Drago LW105RDF vs MF-H Aquario 90RF
https://youtu.be/68Mw4B3t3gE
MF-H Meteo L-Drago LW105RDF vs MF-L Meteo L-Drago LW105EWD
https://youtu.be/DqIyB3_F8Eo
MF-H Meteo L-Drago LW105RDF vs some non-attack match ups
https://youtu.be/z-4XCQvALwo
RE: Powerhouse or Prejudice? RDF in MFL Opinion Gauging - Shindog - Sep. 02, 2024
I do think more testing could be good. But people who are testing RDF now haven’t found any combos that they have been impressed with. So the question naturally should be “what set up got RDF banned in the first place?” That seems like a reasonable and natural starting point for the investigation now. Is there testing thread for the RDF exclusion?
RE: Powerhouse or Prejudice? RDF in MFL Opinion Gauging - Shindog - Sep. 06, 2024
Another video here that I also added to the RDF testing thread
MF-H Gravity Perseus (stamina) 100RDF (in left spin) vs MF-H Pegasis CH120RF
https://youtu.be/1NppIaZavbY
RE: Powerhouse or Prejudice? RDF in MFL Opinion Gauging - Mr. Memes - Sep. 06, 2024
Well after 2 or 3 days of testing RDF, here are my thoughts:
RDF is not oppressive as it was hyped to be compared to its usage in other formats such as 4D and Metal Fight Standard, but I will say that having a possible unban ranked clause for it doesn't add much to the format personally. Its only real niche over the other defense rubber tips (RB, RSF, and RS) is that it has good LAD in opposite spin while having enough aggression to challenge stamina combos to an extent. However, with most of the left-spin options in MFL being geared toward attack mostly in which Meteo is only considered the only true equalizer in MFL, the overall opposite spin LAD doesn't come into play as much unless you get decently lucky against attack types and having Meteo being better defensively is only a small benefit at most.
The only other option would be to mostly run right-spin RDF in which its usage will just be limited to outright stonewalling left-spin attack since right spin has better fusion wheels for defense such as Earth, Rock, Jade, and Bakushin. Yet, there is already a plethora of right spin defense combos already being used in MFL to great effect such as low Rock RSF to counter left-spin attack, Jade RS/RB to wall out Lightning, and Bakushin/Earth/Rock RF for more anti-attack. Right-spin RDF combos would most likely lose to the same things left-spin would such as stallers, same-spin stamina, and attack which from my testing, opposite-spin low RDF combos are probably going to be people's most preferred choice and it's not going to beat much outside of attack.
I will say from all of the testing done for a very niche competitive discussion topic, I would say the biggest thing hurting competitive discussion is just the overall inconsistency of being able to find data that supports why certain bans were made in formats and the overall visceral reaction some people can have in general regarding challenging pre-established tropes in competitive while also apply ABC logic to other formats to an extent. I completely understand the WBO Staff member Shindog made these testing videos mostly in response to the lack of data found on the topic for this thread and to challenge the less-than-savory aspects of how people can get during competitive discussion. It's also part of why I hate that most of our interactions/discussions are on the discord since we are most likely to respond to things with a lack of tact/restraint in regard to most topics while any attempt to post data/relavent information gets cluttered by the hundreds of other users chatting on the server since navigating the website is hard to do and most people are foreign to the concept of threads these days.
If you want to see the data I got on RDF for MFL, feel free to check out my thread right here: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-RDF-testing-in-MFL-to-see-if-it-should-be-legalized-as-a-Ranked-Clause
RE: Powerhouse or Prejudice? RDF in MFL Opinion Gauging - Shindog - Sep. 07, 2024
(Sep. 06, 2024 3:39 AM)Shindog Wrote: Another video here that I also added to the RDF testing thread
MF-H Gravity Perseus (stamina) 100RDF (in left spin) vs MF-H Pegasis CH120RF
https://youtu.be/1NppIaZavbY
To finish this off with right spin Gravity:
MF-H Gravity Perseus (stamina) 100RDF (in right spin) vs MF-H Pegasis CH120RF
https://youtu.be/X5lHAHpSu00
(2 player) MF-H Gravity Perseus (stamina) 100RDF (in right spin) vs MF-H Pegasis CH120RF
https://youtu.be/pK21msTNIUU
RE: Powerhouse or Prejudice? RDF in MFL Opinion Gauging - Shindog - Sep. 08, 2024
Some additonal videos:
MF-H (Has) Fang Lacerta CH120RDF vs MF-L Meteo L-Drago LW105EWD
https://youtu.be/_kAozFqLRyY
MF-H (Has) Fang Lacerta CH120RDF vs MF-L(Has) Duo B:D and Flame 230CS
https://youtu.be/EjtoKpG1h_0
MF-H (Has)L-Drago Guardian (heavy plastic frame) S130RDF vs MF-H Jade Cygnus LW105CF
https://youtu.be/QggtS7JarAE
(2 player) MF-H L-Drago Guardian (heavy plastic frame)S130RDF vs MF-H Gravity Perseus (sta) CH120MF
https://youtu.be/VwhRrS3YdWY
MF-H L-Drago Guardian (heavy plastic frame)S130RDF vs MF-H Screw Susanow CH120RF
https://youtu.be/xpYK1N2eCxo
MH-F (Hasbro) L-Drago Guardian (heavy plastic frame) S130RDF vs MF-L Duo Cancer B:D
https://youtu.be/cwF6kmI_s-Y
RE: Powerhouse or Prejudice? RDF in MFL Opinion Gauging - Cindercast - Sep. 11, 2024
Spoiler (Click to View)
![[Image: this-is-our-mfl.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/SsJGQvXT/this-is-our-mfl.jpg)
On September 1, 2024, I hosted an event titled "The All Intensive "UBERS" Metagame" that legalized RDF, which would allow SoCal bladers to dip their toes in the water and experience how this part influences their typical metagame. The following will go over opinions and use of the part.
Use of RDF
Rubber Defense Flat is said to have great defensive and offensive potential while also exceling in the LAD department. With this coverage it wouldn't be hard to believe that bladers would be scramming to get their hands on this excellent part. Weirdly, this couldn't have been further from the truth.
On this day we had a total of 15 bladers. Out of these players, only 2 of them decided to use RDF that day. But why is that? Surely if they wanted to win they'd use the part that was centralizing right? These two players decided to use the following setups, Low Track Dark Knight RDF, Dark Knight H145RDF, Low Track Gravity RDF, and Low Track Rock RDF. Combinations with RDF stopped seeing use around Round 3/7, and within those 3 rounds that RDF was being used, it managed to score a total of 0 points.
After the event and short interviews I had with some people. I have reached these statistics.
13.3% of people used RDF while it was legal, it was used in 4 of 53 of matches (~7.5%), and it won a total of 0 matches that it was used (0%).
Of course this is only one event where people were able to use RDF. But with years of this part being banned, wouldn't there have at least been one combination that could have excelled on that day? The people were made aware 2 weeks prior and the event managed to yield low results for RDF. This begs the question, "Powerhouse or Prejudice?"
RDF Opinions
Before the start of the event, I reached out to a few players if they've managed to make RDF work. The players are as follows.
A-PAC, Eddiehh, JacobPom, your golden boy, and Beaph
3/5 of these players said no.
2/5 of these players said there was potential for it in right spin. One of these players still did not think highly of it.
I let Rising_Phoenix borrow my RDF because he wanted to use it in his battles. His father told me that he was studying about the part and watched a ton of Metal Fight Standard videos revolving around RDF. Shortly after he told me the part was and I quote "terrible".
So what really makes RDF so feared? As stated before it begs the question, "Powerhouse or Prejudice?"