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Hasbro Hasbro Wheel aka HasWheel Discussion (Burst Limited) - Printable Version

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Hasbro Wheel aka HasWheel Discussion (Burst Limited) - Wombat - Feb. 18, 2023

Wow, I'm surprised this doesn't exist yet. I guess there is plenty of video footage of HasWheel for both BSL testing and tournaments, but either way I still think there is something to be gained by posting these kinds of tests.

For those who are unaware, HasWheel is the unofficial name our beloved community has given to Hasbro's release of the Wheel Disk. While the name of the Disk is still officially "Wheel", we call it differently because similarly to most of Hasbro's releases following Evolution, it has been hollowed out, changing both its appearance and performance. I'll use the names Wheel and HasWheel interchangeably in this thread but since this is the Hasbro Wheel Thread, in the BSL Subforum, where the TT Wheel has never been legal, unless otherwise stated if I say "Wheel" I'm referring to HasWheel.

[Image: DrMfqzW.jpg][Image: l3fvnzD.jpg]
Hasbro Wheels (left and right) compared to TT Wheel (center)

Takara-Tomy's Wheel seems to be on average about 30 grams, mine weighs 30.3g but I think I remember something about there being releases that supposedly have 30.2g and 30.4g Wheels more consistently? When HasWheel was preliminary tested upon its initial release it was quoted at a 25g weight, mine are 24.86g and 24.91g, so basically that. At approximately 25g, HasWheel is about the same weight as 00, about 1-1.5g heavier than 0 and 10, and about 1.5-2.5g heavier than 7. Despite outweighing all but the heaviest Core Disks, Wheel cannot hold a Frame, which adds 2-4g to the Core Disks, meaning that its weight was still reasonable for the format. Additionally, the 5 grams removed when Hasbro hollowed it out all appear to have come from its outer ring, nerfing its Stamina and also its precession. Even when compared to its predecessor Ωuter it didn't seem like HasWheel was objectively better in all situations, so it was left in the game.

Now people are saying it's too good, actually, and that if I want Tapered-Q and whatever other QD Disk might take over in its absence banned, Wheel should probably go with them. So I guess this is more like suspect testing for Wheel?
I didn't really know where to start with this, but I had to start somewhere, so I went with Atomic, since Wh.At was probably the setup I was most interested in.

Wheel Atomic:

Same Spin
Tests (Click to View)

Wheel: 17 wins (16 OS, 1 Burst)
10E: 3 wins (1 OS, 2 Burst)

Wheel defeated 10E here pretty solidly, which isn't surprising considering it's Wheel, but it was on average less burst resistant than 10E (1.4 clicks on Wheel as opposed to 1.15 on 10E). Generally this wouldn't be an issue here because both players would be using At', but it would definitely come into play on other Drivers like Drift or Xt+.

Opposite Spin
Tests (Click to View)

Green At: 14
Wheel: 13
gZ: 9
dF: 8
10E: 4
Yellow At: 3

I tried switching the parts around like I did in the same spin matchup but ended up seeing some shchrange discrepancies in performance upon doing so. dF won the first 5 rounds pretty convincingly, but when I switched the Layers, it became a lot more even. I switched the Drivers and Wheel started winning again, and then switched the Layers back and then Expand won... so while it's pretty clear that my green Atomic is better than my yellow one for LAD, it was also pretty clear that HasWheel was the better Disk, since it was tying even on the worse Driver.

So at least on Atomic, HasWheel outclasses not only Expand, but by extension, Sting, since Sting would still lose to Expand in opposite spin. Not looking too good for its BSL legality so far, but Atomic is only 1 Driver.

Revolve

Opposite Spin
Tests (Click to View)

Yellow R: 16
dC: 11
Wheel: 9
Ωuter: 8
dF: 6
Orange R (lol): 1

Wheel does not necessarily seem better than Ωuter here, though it's pretty clear something similar was going on to the At tests, see: my yellow Revolve won basically every time regardless of the other parts.

Same Spin
Tests (Click to View)
Wheel: 14 wins (13 OS, 1 KO)
Ωuter: 6 wins (5 OS, 1 KO)

Similarly to on Atomic, HasWheel dominated the otherwise optimal option for Revolve in Same Spin. And again, it was slightly less burst resistant (0.7 clicks as opposed to Ωuter's 0.6)

This made me wonder about Wh.Xt+, and also Wh.Ab-S as both of those are advertised as Revolves with more LAD, making Revolve' a reasonable addition to the game. I was more so interested in Xt+ since someone (th!nk, Dan, or Zankye, idr which) said that it especially had good synergy with HasWheel, and Xt+ is also better in opposite spin, theoretically giving the combo better coverage.

Xtend+
Same Spin
Tests (Click to View)

Xt+: 12 wins (all OS)
Revolve: 8 wins (3 OS, 5 Burst)

While Xtend+ (1.65) did burst more than Revolve (0.7) no matter which Fafnir or Wheel it was on, when it stayed together Wh.Xt+ was able to OS Wh.R about 85% of the time.

Opposite Spin
Tests (Click to View)

Wh.Xt+: 2 wins
00W.Dm-S: 5 wins
13 ties

While Dm-S seemed to win more at first, after I switched the Layers they seemed a lot more even, so like most LAD matches, your mileage may vary of course, depending on balance tuning, wear states, etc. But the point is that this combo can simultaneously compete with both hyperspecialized same spin and opposite spin variants in the same combo. Removing Wheel means that Xt+ must run 10C in order to get comparable, but worse Stamina + LAD and make even a tight Xt+/Ab-S considerably less threatening to the overall stamina meta.

I'll come back to this thread in a bit with some vs. Attack tests, which I've been hinting at with the burst resistance comparisons but I still need to finish up a few of them and format the post.

RE: Hasbro Wheel aka HasWheel Discussion (Burst Limited) - Wombat - Feb. 20, 2023

Did some Attack testing, I wanted to see if Wheel's less burst resistance made it more vulnerable to Attack.

LC Bloody Longinus Ωuter Hunter' vs Geist Fafnir Wheel Atomic
bL.Ω.Hn': 14 wins (5 KO, 9 Burst)
gF.Wh.At: 6 wins (all OS)
gF clicks: 4, 1, 4, 2, 2, 4, 3, 1, 4, 1, 4, 2, 4, 2, 1, 4, 4, 1, 2, 4 (2.7)
LC Bloody Longinus Ωuter Hunter' vs Geist Fafnir 10Expand Atomic
bL.Ω.Hn': 13 wins (6 KO, 7 Burst)
gF.10E.At: 7 wins (2 KO, 5 OS)
gF clicks: 4, 4, 2, 4, 1, 1, 4, 4, 1, 2, 2, ?, 1, 3, 2, 4, 2, ?, 4, 2 (~2.6, the ? is from when bL scored a KO and gF bursted in the pocket)

Wheel win rate: 30%
10E win rate: 35%

There wasn't really a significant difference in performance statistically. I did notice that Wheel would move aggressively with a weaker launch strength than 10E would, which could change the Attack matchup in a tournament however.

LC Bloody Longinus Ωuter Ultimate Reboot' vs Geist Fafnir Wheel Drift
bL.Ω.Ul': 8 wins (3 KO, 3 Burst, 2 OS)
gF.Wh.Dr: 12 wins (3 KO, 9 OS)
gF clicks: 1, 2, 4, 1, 2, 1, 4, 1, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 4, 3, 1, 2, 2 (2.05)
LC Bloody Longinus Ωuter Ultimate Reboot' vs Geist Fafnir 0Wall Drift
bL.Ω.Ul': 16 wins (4 KO, 2 Burst, 9 OS)
gF.0W.Dr: 4 wins (1 KO, 3 OS)
gF clicks: 1, 1, 2, 0, 1, 4, 2, 3, 1, 1, 2, 2, 0, 4, 1, 0, 1, 1, 0, 1 (1.4)

Wheel win rate: 60%
0W win rate: 20%

Wheel made a huge difference here, Stamina wise. Generally, the way bL wins this combo is by knocking Drift into "death orbit", and then either waiting while it stalls, and then stalling it out once it calms down, or it can activate the Reboot earlier and attempt to KO Drift at the ridge (though this also risks it being KOed as well).

I did the Wheel tests first, and after doing 0W, went back and did a few more rounds against Wheel to see if it wasn't just me improving at the launch. And no, even when bL was able to get good hits and make Drift stall, it didn't become a "guaranteed" outspin in the same way it was for Wall. I don't think there is a significant difference in defensive ability between the two, imo Wheel only lost more clicks in this matchup because it was a bit more stable than 0W was and as a result generally took more, harder hits rather than spinning out after just one or two.

I haven't tested it on other stuff yet but even without BDr and Tp-Q.Br in the game HasWheel definitely seems like it overcentralizes the Stamina meta in a similar way that Ωuter theoretically would in Classic. I guess I could hold out a little bit more to see if there are several important combos in BSL that absolutely need it to function (QD tips maybe?) but overall I'm leaning more towards banning HasWheel still.

RE: Hasbro Wheel aka HasWheel Discussion (Burst Limited) - bladekid - Mar. 01, 2023

Good stuff my friend. I agree with you on this. Has wheel definitely seems quite over centralizing as far as both the testing and how much its used. Not only do I think a ban would help the meta and promote diversity, but I also think it would make the format feel a lot more "at home" with the late god/early choZ meta feel. I'm absolutely on board with this!

Also, kinda off topic, but its important here. I just really want to personally thank you for all of the work you've been doing to help this format. In its time of need, you've come back to help us with this, and I'm ever grateful! Even if we don't always agree on everything, I know you have the format's best interest in mind, and in a world of people not wanting to publish tests or even do them in the first place (I'm guilty of both, and that's why I mention it. Not pointing fingers at anyone besides me, literally just calling myself out.) You're there to do the tests and make things happen! Thanks you Wombat, you're actions have inspired me to test stuff again! (Note: I may or may not actually test stuff, but now I have the drive to again. This isn't a hint at a megathread or something lol)