(Jul. 01, 2021  5:53 PM)Zeutron Wrote:

(Jul. 01, 2021  5:37 PM)Admiral W Wrote: Nope. This was before Dante got Command Dragon. He was using Ace in the second round of his match with Aiger.

---

I'm not really joining in on this debate, but just to add some info that may have been overlooked or perhaps unknown. In the sub it's revealed that Lucius only survived Twin Break Impact because Spryzen took all of the force of the attack.

 
I don't remember that, at what time during the episode did the subs say this? Was it after the battle?

(Jul. 01, 2021  5:31 PM)Zeutron Wrote: ¨Valt is literally the number 1 blader now.¨
Yes DB Valt is the stronger than Shu and Lane, I am talking about Sparking Valt. Sparking Valt couldn't even survive 2v1 scenarios while Lane could AND did all on his own, that alone is enough to disprove the whole ¨Valt is better¨ theory.

(Jul. 01, 2021  5:57 PM)PinkRose Wrote: So as you may or may not know, today's Bell's birthday, and I made a quick sketch to celebrate. Long live the midget king!

(Jul. 01, 2021  6:03 PM)Admiral W Wrote:

(Jul. 01, 2021  5:53 PM)Zeutron Wrote:  
I don't remember that, at what time during the episode did the subs say this? Was it after the battle?

Here's the screenshot.

(Jul. 01, 2021  5:57 PM)PinkRose Wrote: So as you may or may not know, today's Bell's birthday, and I made a quick sketch to celebrate. Long live the midget king!

(Jul. 01, 2021  6:08 PM)Zeutron Wrote:

(Jul. 01, 2021  6:03 PM)Admiral W Wrote: Here's the screenshot.

I was referring to round 3 of the fight where the impact break simply knocked Spriggan out.

(Jul. 01, 2021  6:11 PM)Admiral W Wrote:

(Jul. 01, 2021  6:08 PM)Zeutron Wrote: I was referring to round 3 of the fight where the impact break simply knocked Spriggan out.

If I recall, both him and Shu used defensive moves (The End Wall & World Spin) to take that on. That helped disperse the damage. So he had help to take on the move. He wouldn't have withstood it on his own.

(Jul. 01, 2021  6:13 PM)Zeutron Wrote:

(Jul. 01, 2021  6:11 PM)Admiral W Wrote: If I recall, both him and Shu used defensive moves (The End Wall & World Spin) to take that on. That helped disperse the damage. So he had help to take on the move. He wouldn't have withstood it on his own.

I know, but two single special moves are not as powerful as a single tag move. Valt and Rantaro used a tag move and both still ended up bursting.

(Jul. 01, 2021  6:19 PM)Admiral W Wrote:

(Jul. 01, 2021  6:13 PM)Zeutron Wrote: I know, but two single special moves are not as powerful as a single tag move. Valt and Rantaro used a tag move and both still ended up bursting.

Tag moves are mostly two special moves used in concert so it's not too different from what they did here. It's very similar given that they combined their defensive power to take on the move. In addition those were two moves were dedicated to defense so it would be more equipped to defend against incoming damage. In any event I'm not here to debate, just providing some info for consideration.

(Jul. 01, 2021  6:29 PM)Zeutron Wrote:

(Jul. 01, 2021  6:19 PM)Admiral W Wrote: Tag moves are mostly two special moves used in concert so it's not too different from what they did here. It's very similar given that they combined their defensive power to take on the move. In addition those were two moves were dedicated to defense so it would be more equipped to defend against incoming damage. In any event I'm not here to debate, just providing some info for consideration.

In all scenarios in which a tag move is used against two special moves, the tag move has prevailed. Based on what we can see, a tag move is not twice as powerful as a special move, but rather an exponential increase. Defending from incoming damage also decreases the damage you are outputting so it is arguably no different than a stamina or attack based counter.

(Jul. 01, 2021  6:40 PM)Admiral W Wrote:

(Jul. 01, 2021  6:29 PM)Zeutron Wrote: In all scenarios in which a tag move is used against two special moves, the tag move has prevailed. Based on what we can see, a tag move is not twice as powerful as a special move, but rather an exponential increase. Defending from incoming damage also decreases the damage you are outputting so it is arguably no different than a stamina or attack based counter.

What I'm pointing out is that most tag moves are just two special moves used in concert. Take Aiger & Ranjiro's for example; it's a combination of Hyper Tornado and Aiger's Infinite Breaker. Raging Tempest is a combination of Raging Upper and Dante's Tempest Break. Duel Charge is just both Hyuga and Valt attacking a Bey from opposite ends after speeding up in the Surge crater. Shu and Lain did basically the same thing by using their defensive moves in concert with each other. In addition the benefit of defense types and defense type moves is their better at exactly that, defending and deflecting damage than the other types.

(Jul. 01, 2021  7:11 PM)Zeutron Wrote:

(Jul. 01, 2021  6:40 PM)Admiral W Wrote: What I'm pointing out is that most tag moves are just two special moves used in concert. Take Aiger & Ranjiro's for example; it's a combination of Hyper Tornado and Aiger's Infinite Breaker. Raging Tempest is a combination of Raging Upper and Dante's Tempest Break. Duel Charge is just both Hyuga and Valt attacking a Bey from opposite ends after speeding up in the Surge crater. Shu and Lain did basically the same thing by using their defensive moves in concert with each other. In addition the benefit of defense types and defense type moves is their better at exactly that, defending and deflecting damage than the other types.

Tag moves clearly have some sort of synergy based exponential advantage (with the exception of synchro lightning assuming that it is not hitting a single target as well as double attack since it is more of an organized attack than a true tag move). They are not 2x special moves but clearly superior to this. Lane and Shu using two special moves is not the same and also serves to prove the point I am making. Under normal circumstances Lane is individually a lot more powerful than either bro and he is a very strong link in this battle but yet, the two special moves used by him and Shu are no match for a tag move, tag moves definitely have an advantage over two specials. Tag moves have only ever successfully been countered by other tag moves as well, beys either lose or are knocked back in other scenarios.

 ¨In addition the benefit of defense types and defense type moves is their better at exactly that, defending and deflecting damage than the other types.¨
This does not make them better suited to take tag moves on, it is a situational advantage which does not occur in this scenario. As I said before, defense type moves have the disadvantage of not creating as much output power so whatever attack type moves lack in defensive properties, they make up for with their output efficiency so Hyperion would be receiving less strain and counter damage from a defense type move. In other words, defense type moves are not better, they are just as good in this case.

(Jul. 01, 2021  7:57 PM)Admiral W Wrote:

(Jul. 01, 2021  7:11 PM)Zeutron Wrote: Tag moves clearly have some sort of synergy based exponential advantage (with the exception of synchro lightning assuming that it is not hitting a single target as well as double attack since it is more of an organized attack than a true tag move). They are not 2x special moves but clearly superior to this. Lane and Shu using two special moves is not the same and also serves to prove the point I am making. Under normal circumstances Lane is individually a lot more powerful than either bro and he is a very strong link in this battle but yet, the two special moves used by him and Shu are no match for a tag move, tag moves definitely have an advantage over two specials. Tag moves have only ever successfully been countered by other tag moves as well, beys either lose or are knocked back in other scenarios.

 ¨In addition the benefit of defense types and defense type moves is their better at exactly that, defending and deflecting damage than the other types.¨
This does not make them better suited to take tag moves on, it is a situational advantage which does not occur in this scenario. As I said before, defense type moves have the disadvantage of not creating as much output power so whatever attack type moves lack in defensive properties, they make up for with their output efficiency so Hyperion would be receiving less strain and counter damage from a defense type move. In other words, defense type moves are not better, they are just as good in this case.

When we look at the tag moves themselves that's exactly what they are; two special moves used in concert. We have clear examples of this such as the ones I mentioned. Aiger and Ranjiro's tag move is a combination of Hyper Tornado and Infinite Breaker, we see that when they use the move. What makes special moves so powerful is it's a combination of two special moves used in concert instead of separately. We haven't seen anything that shows there's some other force at work when using them.

They used the End Wall and World Spin together, to defend against Twin Break Impact, not counter it. Since they were using defensive moves, it would be more capable of tanking the attack given those are dedicated defense moves.

(Jul. 01, 2021  5:24 PM)Beyblade8986 Wrote:

(Jul. 01, 2021  8:09 AM)g2_ Wrote: At the end of the day he beat Lane and Shu with Rantaro, he had enough stamina to beat World Spriggan after beating Lucifer The End. Plus Lucifer was regaining power when Lane activated the avatar. Valt beat him when he had the free spinning ring, that's much more impressive than simply beating Lucifer The End. Plus Shu already beat Lucifer The End too, in the same episode in the training.

Avatar doesn't matter. It's just imagination

(Jul. 01, 2021  5:37 PM)Admiral W Wrote:

(Jul. 01, 2021  5:14 PM)Hollowmind8 Wrote: Wasn't that because of Ignition? (I need to rewatch GT)

Nope. This was before Dante got Command Dragon. He was using Ace in the second round of his match with Aiger.

---

(Jul. 01, 2021  5:31 PM)Zeutron Wrote: ¨Limit break the End couldn't even take out Hikaru in the final battle.¨
Alright, you got me there, but in that same battle Lane survived the limit break twin impact while Valt and Rantaro ended up losing even after they used a tag move to counter break impact. 

I'm not really joining in on this debate, but just to add some info that may have been overlooked or perhaps unknown. In the sub it's revealed that Lucius only survived Twin Break Impact because Spryzen took all of the force of the attack.

(Jul. 01, 2021  8:44 PM)Zeutron Wrote:

(Jul. 01, 2021  7:57 PM)Admiral W Wrote: When we look at the tag moves themselves that's exactly what they are; two special moves used in concert. We have clear examples of this such as the ones I mentioned. Aiger and Ranjiro's tag move is a combination of Hyper Tornado and Infinite Breaker, we see that when they use the move. What makes special moves so powerful is it's a combination of two special moves used in concert instead of separately. We haven't seen anything that shows there's some other force at work when using them.

They used the End Wall and World Spin together, to defend against Twin Break Impact, not counter it. Since they were using defensive moves, it would be more capable of tanking the attack given those are dedicated defense moves.

¨When we look at the tag moves themselves that's exactly what they are; two special moves used in concert.¨
Well yeah, I don't disagree. Just saying that they are not equivalent to using two single moves because of the synergy. Two special moves can create the same amount of output energy as a tag move however, they cannot sustain that same energy.

¨They used the End Wall and World Spin together, to defend against Twin Break Impact, not counter it. Since they were using defensive moves, it would be more capable of tanking the attack given those are dedicated defense moves.¨
Defense moves are intended to deplete damage but they don´t give as much output damage as attack type moves. What I am trying to say is that using a defense type move to counter an attack type move is not strictly better than using an attack type move to counter an attack (as far as the anime goes) in a standard scenario. Hyuga may have not defeated Lane and Shu due to their defense, but he also survived and did not burst like he did in the battle with Valt and Rantaro implying that he received less output damage.

One way or another, there are still tons of ways to prove that Lane is much stronger than Sparking Valt. Such as the fact that Valt needed many advantages to simply KO Lane, the fact that Lane was dominating legends 2v1 whilst Valt was losing 2v1 scenarios and the fact that Hikaru and Hyuga still needed to 2v1 Lane to beat him (in an extremely close match where all three beys burst) when Hyuga and Hikaru beat Valt in a close 2v2. It is a mismatch and Lane is undoubtedly better.

(Jul. 01, 2021  9:51 PM)Admiral W Wrote:

(Jul. 01, 2021  8:44 PM)Zeutron Wrote: ¨When we look at the tag moves themselves that's exactly what they are; two special moves used in concert.¨
Well yeah, I don't disagree. Just saying that they are not equivalent to using two single moves because of the synergy. Two special moves can create the same amount of output energy as a tag move however, they cannot sustain that same energy.

¨They used the End Wall and World Spin together, to defend against Twin Break Impact, not counter it. Since they were using defensive moves, it would be more capable of tanking the attack given those are dedicated defense moves.¨
Defense moves are intended to deplete damage but they don´t give as much output damage as attack type moves. What I am trying to say is that using a defense type move to counter an attack type move is not strictly better than using an attack type move to counter an attack (as far as the anime goes) in a standard scenario. Hyuga may have not defeated Lane and Shu due to their defense, but he also survived and did not burst like he did in the battle with Valt and Rantaro implying that he received less output damage.

One way or another, there are still tons of ways to prove that Lane is much stronger than Sparking Valt. Such as the fact that Valt needed many advantages to simply KO Lane, the fact that Lane was dominating legends 2v1 whilst Valt was losing 2v1 scenarios and the fact that Hikaru and Hyuga still needed to 2v1 Lane to beat him (in an extremely close match where all three beys burst) when Hyuga and Hikaru beat Valt in a close 2v2. It is a mismatch and Lane is undoubtedly better.

That was the whole point I was making. Lain and Shu used their moves in concert to take on Twin Break Impact. They combined their defensive power to take on the move.

I didn't come to debate anything regarding Valt and Lain. We've had that conversation before.
You made it clear you didn't agree with me and I made it clear I didn't agree with you and thus we agreed to disagree. I'm not interested in re-debating a point we've both made clear where we stand on. I just came to add that point about Twin Break Impact for consideration.

(Jul. 01, 2021  10:27 PM)Admiral W Wrote: I mentioned this earlier, but on thinking about Basara I think he'd fit in well at BC Sol. What do y'all think about that?

(Jul. 02, 2021  8:34 AM)Needforspeed Wrote:
They better give this a real release

(Jul. 02, 2021  8:34 AM)Needforspeed Wrote:
They better give this a real release