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+--- Thread: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables (/Thread-Tier-Vs-Skill-The-Constantly-Confusing-Variables)
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - BladeStorm - Mar. 15, 2011
I think the main problem why people are sceptical to believe in Bluzee's "unorthodox" combos is the over-glorification of them. I normally see testing presented in a non-biased, "I-couldn't-care-much-if people-shoot-down-my-combo" way. It also doesn't help that the over-enthusiastic nature to prove one's point is too provoking for certain other members. I've read through the (in my opinion) long winded resolution in this thread where no 2 player testing is done, which would help support Bluzee's arguement; since tournament battles are done with 2 players. I also think that it is not the person who shouts loudest gets their point across better. I'm just saying people believe will Bluzee more if he tones down a bit.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Bluezee - Mar. 15, 2011
(Mar. 15, 2011 10:04 AM)BladeStorm Wrote: I think the main problem why people are sceptical to believe in Bluzee's "unorthodox" combos is the over-glorification of them. I normally see testing presented in a non-biased, "I-couldn't-care-much-if people-shoot-down-my-combo" way. It also doesn't help that the over-enthusiastic nature to prove one's point is too provoking for certain other members. I've read through the (in my opinion) long winded resolution in this thread where no 2 player testing is done, which would help support Bluzee's arguement; since tournament battles are done with 2 players. I also think that it is not the person who shouts loudest gets their point across better. I'm just saying people believe will Bluzee more if he tones down a bit.
Why should I have to "tone it down" a bit if I want to support something? That's like telling me to be passive and just let people shoot down everything I say, like people always try to do, and just submit to everything that is said that downplays my skill and combos. It shouldn't even be a matter of "his tone is too loud and he does not have an I-couldn't-care-much-if-people-shoot-down-my combo attitude". If everyone had that attitude, we would not have a metagame or tier today at all. It was because people stood up for what they believed was right that we actually have something to speak about. I have my own path so I am not going to be passive like other members here so take it or leave it. I do so much and put so much effort into things I do just to get such little recognition especially for the amount of time I have been here while others feed off of others' passiveness and get recognition for an idea that may not even be their own. I will not accept that and if you are saying that my solo-testing is invalid because it is not 2-player testing, then you are saying that 95% of this board is based on invalid results. I could do the 2 player testing and the results would be the same. I can guarantee you that. If you want to see that bad, it can be done but don't suggest that I sit around and let people bad-mouth things I do because they are too arrogant to try something new and accept something that shuts old theories down and brings forth change.
(Mar. 15, 2011 6:24 AM)CyberDranzer Wrote:(Mar. 15, 2011 6:16 AM)Kai-V Wrote:(Mar. 15, 2011 6:12 AM)CyberDranzer Wrote: Okay Bluezee, I'm scared of that combo. The problem is, Kai-V brings up a good point that you may not be using all of you skill with LLD and only with Hammer.
Let it be known that I do not see it as a "super-conscious-and-malicious" 'mis-concentration' of skills just to show your point, Bluezee.
I also agree that Bluezee is not the kind of guy who would do that. I'm just saying that it is possible you could have (without realizing) not have used LLD to it's full capacity. That being said, I believe the tests are genuine, and both beys were launched with the full intent of winning.
I am full aware of what I am doing. I actually did numerous tests with different launches and everything just to make sure that I was not doing something wrong. I dont see why it is so hard to believe what I do.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Pimpju - Mar. 15, 2011
Not being argumentative but you have to admit how it seems unbelievable. You say you know your skills, so you're not blind to what others see.
What's best is to post a video showing this to prove your point.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Bluezee - Mar. 15, 2011
(Mar. 15, 2011 1:41 PM)momiji manju Wrote: Not being argumentative but you have to admit how it seems unbelievable. You say you know your skills, so you're not blind to what others see.
What's best is to post a video showing this to prove your point.
It shouldn't even be that unbelievable. People shouldn't be so stuck in one state of mind and be open for change. Or maybe thay shouldn't be so blind and try it the right way. Its not like the combos I used against mine are invicible and always achieve 100 percent win rates on anything. Making a video would be easy but even when I do that, people claim its edited, done unfairly, etc. Just to avoid truth. If a video is needed then it will be done but I'm willing to bet just about anything that people will still try to make it seem like I'm skewing results.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Pimpju - Mar. 15, 2011
If you do a video, I'll fully support your validity, and any other senior member would to be honest.
The rest will come to once they see proper results.
Could you upload a 10 or so minute video etc, standard testing things.
One thing I do say about your unorthodox combos is that it seems, from what I've read that these combos achieve their success because you know your opponent's combo?
i.e, your niche combo works because of the knowledge of your opponent's.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Bluezee - Mar. 15, 2011
(Mar. 15, 2011 2:00 PM)momiji manju Wrote: If you do a video, I'll fully support your validity, and any other senior member would to be honest.I could do all of this today. Its not so much as me knowing my opponent's combos. I use pretty much whatever I feel works for me. The combos I tend to create are based more on their concept and what they are supposed to do rather than what they beat. It is more so a process like this:
The rest will come to once they see proper results.
Could you upload a 10 or so minute video etc, standard testing things.
One thing I do say about your unorthodox combos is that it seems, from what I've read that these combos achieve their success because you know your opponent's combo?
i.e, your niche combo works because of the knowledge of your opponent's.
1. Create a concept, 2. Find parts that are able to make this concept usable and effective, 3. Create or use a launch tha maximizes the combo's ability, 4. Begin testin against all top tiers and take the out. That is my process for the most part.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - BladeStorm - Mar. 15, 2011
I tried my best to communicate how Bluezee can improve his standing in making people believe him. I guess if he sees it as a personal attack instead of a 3rd person view which I wrote the comment from, so be it.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Bluezee - Mar. 15, 2011
(Mar. 15, 2011 5:18 PM)BladeStorm Wrote: I tried my best to communicate how Bluezee can improve his standing in making people believe him. I guess if he sees it as a personal attack instead of a 3rd person view which I wrote the comment from, so be it.
If you have to go through all the drama I have to go through just to get my point across and make people even have the slightest change of heart and mind, you would feel the same way. I refuse t be passive and deny what I can do for a group of ignorant and closed minded people. Its as simple as that. So thanks but no thanks. I'll post my video and just shut people up like always.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - BladeStorm - Mar. 15, 2011
(Mar. 15, 2011 5:24 PM)Bluezee Wrote:(Mar. 15, 2011 5:18 PM)BladeStorm Wrote: I tried my best to communicate how Bluezee can improve his standing in making people believe him. I guess if he sees it as a personal attack instead of a 3rd person view which I wrote the comment from, so be it.
If you have to go through all the drama I have to go through just to get my point across and make people even have the slightest change of heart and mind, you would feel the same way. I refuse t be passive and deny what I can do for a group of ignorant and closed minded people. Its as simple as that. So thanks but no thanks. I'll post my video and just shut people up like always.
Ok, its great to know you understand.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - neoknux_009 - Mar. 15, 2011
finally a vid ;D yay.
also i dont know why the skill side is getting so tense.. does it look like skill is losing? ;/ dont think so.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Dan - Mar. 15, 2011
Did you not post a video awhile back anyway handing 230 its 'head' with 85?
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - BladeStorm - Mar. 15, 2011
(Mar. 15, 2011 5:43 PM)Dan Wrote: Did you not post a video awhile back anyway handing 230 its 'head' with 85?
Both on WD, using Earth though
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Dan - Mar. 15, 2011
I don't see how that doesn't display how Skill beats tier and that Bluezee has one wonky shot?
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - BladeStorm - Mar. 15, 2011
(Mar. 15, 2011 5:52 PM)Dan Wrote: I don't see how that doesn't display how Skill beats tier and that Bluezee has one wonky shot?
My opinion of tier is not is what is written and considered on the WBO boards, but is what is used more frequently, sucessfully in tournaments.
I rate Earth 230WD and Earth 85WD pretty low down.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Bluezee - Mar. 15, 2011
(Mar. 15, 2011 5:43 PM)Dan Wrote: Did you not post a video awhile back anyway handing 230 its 'head' with 85?
Yes and even then people tried to say that I skewed the results and edited the video. They don't want to accept change because they are slaves to old ideas.
(Mar. 15, 2011 5:55 PM)BladeStorm Wrote:(Mar. 15, 2011 5:52 PM)Dan Wrote: I don't see how that doesn't display how Skill beats tier and that Bluezee has one wonky shot?
My opinion of tier is not is what is written and considered on the WBO boards, but is what is used more frequently, sucessfully in tournaments.
I rate Earth 230WD and Earth 85WD pretty low down.
So then pick two combos that are absolutely identical besides the track like 85 vs.230 and watch me do the same thing. Go for it.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Kai-V - Mar. 15, 2011
Ah, but do I need to bring back the same points I had last time ? We cannot just change over to your ideal that top-tier means nothing and we need to rewrite everything, because that is not true for the majority. We can accept your point if you want, but top-tier still works incredibly well for most of us, so we will not just forget it ... So we have reason to stay "slaves to old ideas".
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - BladeStorm - Mar. 15, 2011
(Mar. 15, 2011 6:47 PM)Bluezee Wrote: So then pick two combos that are absolutely identical besides the track like 85 vs.230 and watch me do the same thing. Go for it.
So you are limiting the choices down to an event that is unlikely in a tournament?
I have never said nor insinuated that you don't have skill. You obviously do, as why would you even place in a tournament? What I'm saying is that you shouldn't set the boundaries so tight that you lose track of what is to be done to prove your point.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Livingdeadgirl - Mar. 15, 2011
yea maybe soon people may see that Flame Leone c145/ch120 JB/HF/SD/WD is a goood combo!i love usinf that instead of a top tier combo becuse to me i love using my own combos instead of top tier beyblades becuse it gets so boring........GO FLAME LEONE!
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Kai-V - Mar. 15, 2011
(Mar. 15, 2011 7:56 PM)Kaylaomaru Wrote: yea maybe soon people may see that Flame Leone c145/ch120 JB/HF/SD/WD is a goood combo!i love usinf that instead of a top tier combo becuse to me i love using my own combos instead of top tier beyblades becuse it gets so boring........GO FLAME LEONE!
That does not really have anything to do with the topic if you do not even win against top-tier combinations ...
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Suggit - Mar. 16, 2011
(Mar. 02, 2011 5:03 AM)Otsu Wrote: the problem with this argument in beyblade is that the person has very little actual involvement with the outcome of the battle. the only thing you can call skill is the strength of the launch, and doing a sliding shot. other than that, it all comes down to your equipment. it's not like playing a fighting game where you have complete control of your character.
my friend and I are pretty equal when it comes to strength and launching mechanics. so it just comes down to which combination beyblade is better. we're always going for that gattayaki though. haha.
edit, wow i actually meant to click tier, but clicked skill by mistake.
When I first started I would have agreed. But through much time spent playing, I can tell u that this is completely false. Its like playing pool actually. Yes u don't directly control the ball, but u do control things such as spin, angle, and trajectory. I pretty much only use attack types bcuz my favorite thing about beyblade is controlling the tops movement through such mentioned skills. Another thing is power doesnt always matter. And Id be willing to bet that I could "out" any top tier blade u choose, and only use one third of my power. That's all, just my 2 cents as a mechanical engineer.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Otsu - Mar. 16, 2011
blader v
In pool, the only eqiupment you use is the cue stick. There are no other variables except player skill. So that arguement doesnt really compare to beyblades. I am an avid billiards player btw. And fighting game player. So i'd say i know a thing or two about tiers and skill.
Pretty much anything that is competitive or pvp related i play. Which is part of the reason why i like beyblades.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Deikailo - Mar. 16, 2011
(Mar. 15, 2011 7:12 PM)Kai-V Wrote: Ah, but do I need to bring back the same points I had last time ? We cannot just change over to your ideal that top-tier means nothing and we need to rewrite everything, because that is not true for the majority. We can accept your point if you want, but top-tier still works incredibly well for most of us, so we will not just forget it ... So we have reason to stay "slaves to old ideas".Not to say top tier isn't important, but from what I've experienced, top tier parts are parts that are interchangably acceptable. For example, throw a WD on any stamina wheel and it will return beautiful results.
However, if you look at UW145, it's mediocre. Pegasis is okay, but not acceptional. Put the two of them together, they harmonize brilliantly because the feathers line up perfectly with Pegasis's wings, but they can't be considered top tier because it's combination specific.
Beyond that, it takes skill to use your findings effectively and make appropriate choices post launch. It goes into the use of deception tactics, knowledge of tiers, part interactions, etc. I think skill should be closely affiliated with knowledge. Like sports, a skilled player knows the rules and what works effectively in different situations.
Tier is great, don't get me wrong, half of the parts I use are top tier, but it's extremely important to know how to create a combo beyond staples, launch your Beyblade to bring out the full potential of its type, and choose your Beyblade appropriately.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Kai-V - Mar. 17, 2011
(Mar. 16, 2011 10:43 PM)Deikailo Wrote: Not to say top tier isn't important, but from what I've experienced, top tier parts are parts that are interchangably acceptable. For example, throw a WD on any stamina wheel and it will return beautiful results.
However, if you look at UW145, it's mediocre. Pegasis is okay, but not acceptional. Put the two of them together, they harmonize brilliantly because the feathers line up perfectly with Pegasis's wings, but they can't be considered top tier because it's combination specific.
Beyond that, it takes skill to use your findings effectively and make appropriate choices post launch. It goes into the use of deception tactics, knowledge of tiers, part interactions, etc. I think skill should be closely affiliated with knowledge. Like sports, a skilled player knows the rules and what works effectively in different situations.
Tier is great, don't get me wrong, half of the parts I use are top tier, but it's extremely important to know how to create a combo beyond staples, launch your Beyblade to bring out the full potential of its type, and choose your Beyblade appropriately.
But yes, all of this "unorthodox combinations are great too" entirely depends on the knowledge of your opponent's top-tier Beyblade, no ? So the best choice if you have absolutely no idea what your opponent will use is to take something that is top-tier. Unless you actually have "unorthodox" customizations that you can make work well in most circumstances.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Bluezee - Mar. 17, 2011
That is exactly what deikailo has created and has a launch to go with it. She would be fine under any circumstance she should be fine. The combo I also posted is safe against anything as well. These combos are well thought out before they are used and posted.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Deikailo - Mar. 17, 2011
Actually, I mean to say knowledge = skill. Like going to trade school to learn a skill, we research top titers and what is most commonly used to learn to counter it. You can play top tier, yes, but your burn bull 145cs isn't going to save you from aquario ch120hf with a skilled blader launching it at the end of the day.